Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[ashkeba]

I have to disagree. Makes no sense keeping them on the WAML. Cambridge to London travel for the greater part of a weekday & all weekend is very much in favour of Kings Cross. 745s would be wasted on this route compared to the far better loadings in first & standard seen on the time honoured IC route to Norwich.

I'm not surprised you want as many as possible where you can drive them!

Cambridge passengers tend to King's Cross now because that's what the journey planners push people towards and there's little to choose between the rolling stock, with the 387s currently edging it. With a bit of marketing, 745s on a proper intercity faster and direct to the city could do something to rebalance that.

An 8 car intercity might suffice at first but there aren't any of those around here.

There's not really any contest between a 745 and a 720, is there? If 720s run to Norwich, we'll see some passengers avoiding it in favour of the next 745, yet it seems the West is to be denied even the choice.

 

[Bikeman78]

Can you just imagine the fresh air on a 12-car 745? Would be a ludicrous waste.

Indeed. It's only recently that I've not had the motor car of a 317 to myself coming into Cambridge. For the short run to Cambridge North it's still common to have a whole unit to myself.

The 745s are still overkill on Stansted Express but at least they provide a useful service to Harlow and Bishop's Stortford. It amuses that all the passengers cram on at the back at Stansted Airport. Then they have a long walk at Tottenham Hale or Liverpool Street. Typically around 30-40 airport passengers per train get off at Tottenham now.

 

[dk1]

I'm not surprised you want as many as possible where you can drive them!

Cambridge passengers tend to King's Cross now because that's what the journey planners push people towards and there's little to choose between the rolling stock, with the 387s currently edging it. With a bit of marketing, 745s on a proper intercity faster and direct to the city could do something to rebalance that.

An 8 car intercity might suffice at first but there aren't any of those around here.

There's not really any contest between a 745 and a 720, is there? If 720s run to Norwich, we'll see some passengers avoiding it in favour of the next 745, yet it seems the West is to be denied even the choice.

I think you are only kidding yourself.

 

[samuelmorris]

As long as a train is adequate for the journey in question, then journey time is king. People that are working right next to Liverpool Street will already be using the line, people that aren't, by all accounts, probably won't be other than at times of disruption to the ECML. Changing from 720s to 745s really isn't going to make any appreciable difference to which way people travel.

You say there's no contest between a 720 and a 745, is there not? Other than 2+3 vs 2+2 seating, what differences are there that matter to you? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Grumbler]

As long as a train is adequate for the journey in question, then journey time is king. People that are working right next to Liverpool Street will already be using the line, people that aren't, by all accounts, probably won't be other than at times of disruption to the ECML. Changing from 720s to 745s really isn't going to make any appreciable difference to which way people travel.

You say there's no contest between a 720 and a 745, is there not? Other than 2+3 vs 2+2 seating, what differences are there that matter to you? I'm genuinely curious.

Surely it would be fairly simple to reconfigure some of the 720 fleet specially for the Stansted services, rather like some 4VEPs became 4VEGs for the Gatwick services forty odd years ago. Thus the 745/1s could be dedidated to the GEML, some or all of them being reconfigured over time to be similar to the 745/0s.

 

[trebor79]

You say there's no contest between a 720 and a 745, is there not? Other than 2+3 vs 2+2 seating, what differences are there that matter to you? I'm genuinely curious.

No buffet or catering trolley, no first class and probably most importantly for business folk no tables.

 

[JonathanH]

No buffet or catering trolley, no first class and probably most importantly for business folk no tables.

...and of course a 745/1 doesn't have any of those things either if the implication is that sending them to Cambridge would offer those things over a 720.

 

[Energy]

No buffet or catering trolley, no first class and probably most importantly for business folk no tables.

Its about 50 minutes on Great Northern, you do not need a catering trolley. Its been suggested on this forum before that the 379s could go to GN which would be a lot better way to improve the comfort of Cambridge services than to stick the 745s on them which will carry air around and aren't near to their depot.

This isn't the speculative threads section though....

 

[CBlue]

I'm not surprised you want as many as possible where you can drive them!

Cambridge passengers tend to King's Cross now because that's what the journey planners push people towards and there's little to choose between the rolling stock, with the 387s currently edging it. With a bit of marketing, 745s on a proper intercity faster and direct to the city could do something to rebalance that.

An 8 car intercity might suffice at first but there aren't any of those around here.

There's not really any contest between a 745 and a 720, is there? If 720s run to Norwich, we'll see some passengers avoiding it in favour of the next 745, yet it seems the West is to be denied even the choice.

This all sounds a bit silly.

I look forward to you chaining yourself to the doors of Cambridge station in protest of this grossly unfair treatment of passengers...........that couldn't care less about being on an "intercity" service to London. The longest journey time is 90 minutes and that's if you're daft / desperate enough to catch the all stopper train - give most passengers a seat back table and that'll do the job nicely for such a short run.


Anyone heading to Liv St and boarding a 720 will see a nice comfy clean new train and find it an enormous upgrade over the worn out 317s.

Pretty sure there isn't the pathing to fit a regularly timed express service down to Liverpool Street anyway...

 

[Ianno87]

This all sounds a bit silly.

I look forward to you chaining yourself to the doors of Cambridge station in protest of this grossly unfair treatment of passengers...........that couldn't care less about being on an "intercity" service to London. The longest journey time is 90 minutes and that's if you're daft / desperate enough to catch the all stopper train - give most passengers a seat back table and that'll do the job nicely for such a short run.


Anyone heading to Liv St and boarding a 720 will see a nice comfy clean new train and find it an enormous upgrade over the worn out 317s.

Pretty sure there isn't the pathing to fit a regularly timed express service down to Liverpool Street anyway...

The Liverpool Street run is never going to compete on journey times to Kings Cross, and for the Kings Cross journey time, people don't really care about being on a "suburban" train for that length of time as the tables etc are decent and there are plenty of seats.

Generally, if you're on a Liverpool Street train from Cambridge you're either:
1) Specifically wanting to go to The City and immediate surroundings, or
2) Wanting a cheap ticket and not in a particular rush or
3) Avoiding engineering works on the King's Cross route.

 

[dk1]

Surely it would be fairly simple to reconfigure some of the 720 fleet specially for the Stansted services, rather like some 4VEPs became 4VEGs for the Gatwick services forty odd years ago. Thus the 745/1s could be dedidated to the GEML, some or all of them being reconfigured over time to be similar to the 745/0s.

I thought that was the plan. A sub-fleet of 720s with slight alterations to make them more suitable for airport traffic.

 

[trebor79]

Its about 50 minutes on Great Northern, you do not need a catering trolley. Its been suggested on this forum before that the 379s could go to GN which would be a lot better way to improve the comfort of Cambridge services than to stick the 745s on them which will carry air around and aren't near to their depot.

This isn't the speculative threads section though....

Oh I know. Was just a answering the question if what a 745 offers over a 720.

 

[jfowkes]

Generally, if you're on a Liverpool Street train from Cambridge you're either:
1) Specifically wanting to go to The City and immediate surroundings, or
2) Wanting a cheap ticket and not in a particular rush or
3) Avoiding engineering works on the King's Cross route

It will be interesting to see how crossrail changes this. When Liverpool Street gets much better connectivity to a lot of destinations, I wonder how many people will switch?

 

[Ianno87]

It will be interesting to see how crossrail changes this. When Liverpool Street gets much better connectivity to a lot of destinations, I wonder how many people will switch?

Not many. Given Kings X plus Vic line gives West End connectivity (which you can do today from Tottenham Hale anyway), or Circle to reach Paddington.

What may swing will be Cambridge-Canary Wharf journeys, for which Liverpool Street would become the "No brainer" route.


Don't forget also that Cambridge will have another direct Crossrail connection at Farringdon too. Journeys such as Cambridge-Heathrow would be swings and roundabouts between going via Liverpool Street ot Farringdon - not all that much in it (though Farringdon probably edges it slightly)

 

[ashkeba]

You say there's no contest between a 720 and a 745, is there not? Other than 2+3 vs 2+2 seating, what differences are there that matter to you? I'm genuinely curious.

Personally, level boarding and wider aisles, but 745s are just nicer trains which do not feel third-class like the harsh commuter stock. No one is going to chain themselves to station doors. They will just drive instead of another narrow-seat migraine-inducing bum-numbing commuter train journey.

You all can say train does not matter but we repeatedly see in other places that normal people will change journeys to get for example even an HST stopper instead of a Sprinter stopper. Or on the Peterborough line during the fleet changeover, normal people kept asking on twitter and facebook which services were still worked by "comfy" 365s. I do not see why Cambridgers are immune to this.

Really, if 745s are going to be robbed from the West, keeping the 379s somehow and a subclass of 720s with 2+2 and bigger lyggage racks is the minimum that should happen.

 

[jopsuk]

Cambridge-Kings Cross has been the primary Cambridge-London route more or less since Royston-Cambridge was electrified (as prior to that there was a DMU shuttle from Cambridge to Royston!)

 

[ashkeba]

Don't forget also that Cambridge will have another direct Crossrail connection at Farringdon too. Journeys such as Cambridge-Heathrow would be swings and roundabouts between going via Liverpool Street ot Farringdon - not all that much in it (though Farringdon probably edges it slightly)

Cbg to Farringdon 70mins fastest but consistent £27.50,
Cbg to Liverpool Street 68mins fastest but occasional £16.
Any edging seems very slight. If the Liverpool Street trains were better (745s!) than the 700s as well as being cheaper, Greater Anglia could easily take passengers off Thameslink, but I am not sure how much operators will compete under GBR.

 

[samuelmorris]

Personally, level boarding and wider aisles, but 745s are just nicer trains which do not feel third-class like the harsh commuter stock. No one is going to chain themselves to station doors. They will just drive instead of another narrow-seat migraine-inducing bum-numbing commuter train journey.

You all can say train does not matter but we repeatedly see in other places that normal people will change journeys to get for example even an HST stopper instead of a Sprinter stopper. Or on the Peterborough line during the fleet changeover, normal people kept asking on twitter and facebook which services were still worked by "comfy" 365s. I do not see why Cambridgers are immune to this.

Really, if 745s are going to be robbed from the West, keeping the 379s somehow and a subclass of 720s with 2+2 and bigger lyggage racks is the minimum that should happen.

Have you actually ridden a 720? Did it feel 'harsh third class commuter stock' to you? I'm a bit baffled because having ridden them both, honestly apart from 2+2 vs. 3+2 I felt they were actually a very similar experience. I actually found the 720 seating more comfortable.

The 745s being 'robbed' from the West are being taken from Stansted Express. Unless you're an airport user, you'd be on them for very short journeys. Express stock for such journeys would definitely be a privilege, not an expectation. The 745s were never originally going to serve Cambridge, so how can they have been robbed from it?

 

[Class 170101]

Cambridge-Kings Cross has been the primary Cambridge-London route more or less since Royston-Cambridge was electrified (as prior to that there was a DMU shuttle from Cambridge to Royston!)

Indeed Cambridge and Kings Lynn were switched to Kings Cross to allow Liverpool Street to focus on Stansted Airport Station when that opened in 1991.

 

[Bikeman78]

This all sounds a bit silly.

I look forward to you chaining yourself to the doors of Cambridge station in protest of this grossly unfair treatment of passengers...........that couldn't care less about being on an "intercity" service to London. The longest journey time is 90 minutes and that's if you're daft / desperate enough to catch the all stopper train - give most passengers a seat back table and that'll do the job nicely for such a short run.


Anyone heading to Liv St and boarding a 720 will see a nice comfy clean new train and find it an enormous upgrade over the worn out 317s.

Pretty sure there isn't the pathing to fit a regularly timed express service down to Liverpool Street anyway...

The comparison needs to be with 379s really. Just nine weekday trains out of 40 are booked 317s to Cambridge. Weekends are normally 100% 379s.

 

[MCR247]

Anecdotally I’ve seen a lot of 317s on Cambridge services services since COVID, even at weekends

 

[jopsuk]

definitely saw a 317 pulling into Cambridge North today

 

[dk1]

Not likely to keep 100% to the plan but at least it gives some idea as to which trains are expected to offer no 1st class.

First Class

Please note that not all Greater Anglia trains have First Class. Check your journey. Treat yourself - it may not be as much as you think. Whether you’re travelling for business or pleasure, First Class can give you the space and comfort you’re looking for.

www.greateranglia.co.uk

 

[Class360/1]

Not likely to keep 100% to the plan but at least it gives some idea as to which trains are expected to offer no 1st class.

First Class

Please note that not all Greater Anglia trains have First Class. Check your journey. Treat yourself - it may not be as much as you think. Whether you’re travelling for business or pleasure, First Class can give you the space and comfort you’re looking for.

www.greateranglia.co.uk

So is the suburban first class still declassified?

 

[dk1]

So is the suburban first class still declassified?

First class only exists on Norwich-Ipswich-London Intercity services.

 

[ashkeba]

Have you actually ridden a 720? Did it feel 'harsh third class commuter stock' to you? I'm a bit baffled because having ridden them both, honestly apart from 2+2 vs. 3+2 I felt they were actually a very similar experience. I actually found the 720 seating more comfortable.

I do not think they have operated many services in the West yet (but I am travelling by train a bit less than usual still) so no I have not, but I have ridden other Aventras and so think my expectations are realistic. Maybe 720s are old news to you but maybe GE passengers forget that WA gets nothing first so we are still using the 40-year-old class 317 train design: some heritage lines have younger units.

I suspect you have perfect mobility and so do not value the other features of 745s/755s as much as me. If you do not see significant benefit over 720s then fine, you have a few more 720s where you are and let us have some 745s.

The 745s being 'robbed' from the West are being taken from Stansted Express. Unless you're an airport user, you'd be on them for very short journeys. Express stock for such journeys would definitely be a privilege, not an expectation. The 745s were never originally going to serve Cambridge, so how can they have been robbed from it?

Robbed from the West, I wrote, but I think Cambridge has seen every previous generation of Stansted Express train and so in time I expected we would see a few 745s too.

It would also allow me to travel step-free via the airport 755s more easily if my legs deteriorate so I can no longer walk even with sticks, at a cost of a slower journey but I accept that is a niche interest and wheelchair users are still expected to call ahead and wait for people with ramps. It still makes me sad for level access to be so close to being and then plans changed.

 

[samuelmorris]

The level boarding I will grant you, that's something that, now having proven to be possible, really ought to be on all new stock procured for the UK.

The 'West gets nothing first' argument is a bit odd seeing as for an entire decade the newest GA fleet was the 379s which exclusively work the West side and very good units they are too. Nowadays I understand they form a larger part of the West Anglian fleet than ever with many of the 317s having been retired.

As for being able to tell what a 720 is like from having ridden a 345 or 710 with rock hard mostly longitudinal seating, bare floors that reflect sound and no other amenities, not really. I wouldn't say they are a very useful comparison.

 

[ashkeba]

The 'West gets nothing first' argument is a bit odd seeing as for an entire decade the newest GA fleet was the 379s which exclusively work the West side and very good units they are too. Nowadays I understand they form a larger part of the West Anglian fleet than ever with many of the 317s having been retired.

Only newest build date, as 379s are still just a type of Electrostars and they had been around since 2000, based on the 1990s Turbostar which the East had first for branches, Norwich-Basingstoke and then Cambridge-Norwich. When the West got 379s the East had the more moder modern design 360 Desiros. The 379s while good are a 20 year-old design bought by NXEA to replace 317s which were then considered too old at 20+ year old but are still here now. The 321s are younger than 317s but being replaced by the 720s and 745s first.

As for being able to tell what a 720 is like from having ridden a 345 or 710 with rock hard mostly longitudinal seating, bare floors that reflect sound and no other amenities, not really. I wouldn't say they are a very useful comparison.

Well other posts suggest that the West may finally get some 720s from this week to see for ourselves but I am not sure whether they will work to Cambridge soon.

Would you really not choose a 745 service over a 720 one if you had the choise?

 

[43096]

Only newest build date, as 379s are still just a type of Electrostars and they had been around since 2000, based on the 1990s Turbostar which the East had first for branches, Norwich-Basingstoke and then Cambridge-Norwich. When the West got 379s the East had the more moder modern design 360 Desiros. The 379s while good are a 20 year-old design bought by NXEA to replace 317s which were then considered too old at 20+ year old but are still here now. The 321s are younger than 317s but being replaced by the 720s and 745s first.

And your point is what, exactly? I don’t understand your issue with age of the design: the trains were new. You just appearing to be twisting anything in a vain hope they support your argument. They don’t: it just supports the idea that you have a chip on your shoulder about a perceived bias against West Anglia.

All of which rather takes away from the point about level boarding, which is a game changer on the Stadler fleets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you really not choose a 745 service over a 720 one if you had the choise?

Anyone with any sense would choose a 2+2 seated train over a 3+2 seated one. If fully mobile I doubt they care about level boarding.

730 (2+2 Kiel seating) vs 745 might be a harder choice.