Class 745 Stadler FLIRTs

[trebor79]

How many of the 10 of each variant need to be available to run a full timetable?

10 is enough for Stansted Express.
The jury is out on the Norwich services. There are (or were) 12 or 13 Mk3 sets. If you work it out, assuming a 2 hour journey time and half hour turnaround, you need 10 sets just to cover the basic half hourly service. That doesn't include the extra trains at the peaks, the Norwich in 90, or any allowance for routine maintenance, exams or fault repairs.
Rumours that some Mk3 sets are to be retained, but I suspect the long term answer will be some intercity services downgraded to class 321 as happens at present,.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rumours that some Mk3 sets are to be retained, but I suspect the long term answer will be some intercity services downgraded to class 321 as happens at present,.

Aventra, perhaps.

I still don't get why they didn't make all the FLIRT EMUs the same (they could have sold First Class upgrades on board for a fiver on the StanEx and just left the buffet shut) then they could have used Aventras on that instead when necessary, which makes more sense than the ICs.

 

[Tug]

So they did not order enough of the Norwich stock to meet their franchise obligations which I understand included all new stock?

Are there any arrangements for making the Mk3 stock compliant after 1/1/20 as surely they could not continue with non compliant stock indefinitely?

Somehow this does not help the image of a well run and premier service for the future which the promises, pictures & pr machine are trying to promote.

 

[ashkeba]

Aventra, perhaps.

I still don't get why they didn't make all the FLIRT EMUs the same (they could have sold First Class upgrades on board for a fiver on the StanEx and just left the buffet shut) then they could have used Aventras on that instead when necessary, which makes more sense than the ICs.

Running WA sets with closed buffets taking up space would probably cause more bad press than running with no buffets. The omission of first class is a bit more debatable although I think it needs less than the IC.

 

[trebor79]

I still don't get why they didn't make all the FLIRT EMUs the same (they could have sold First Class upgrades on board for a fiver on the StanEx and just left the buffet shut) then they could have used Aventras on that instead when necessary, which makes more sense than the ICs.

Yes, that would have been the sensible thing to do. Could have kept the buffet open even and sold some tea, coffee and snacks to weary travellers. Might do quite well at the right time of day.
Also, as the stock will be maintained at Crown Point, they are presumably going to be rotated to/from the depot by way of covering some Norwich services. So it seems the lottery of whether or not there will be a buffet is to continue indefinitely.
I used to rely on the buffet for breakfast if I had a reasonably early start to be in London. Now I just get up 20 minutes earlier as it can't be relied upon.
In a few years it'll be "we're removing the buffets because nobody uses them".

Running WA sets with closed buffets taking up space would probably cause more bad press than running with no buffets. The omission of first class is a bit more debatable although I think it needs less than the IC.

I'm not sure it would cause bad press actually.

 

[BucksBones]

There are (or were) 12 or 13 Mk3 sets. If you work it out, assuming a 2 hour journey time and half hour turnaround, you need 10 sets just to cover the basic half hourly service. That doesn't include the extra trains at the peaks, the Norwich in 90, or any allowance for routine maintenance, exams or fault repairs.
Rumours that some Mk3 sets are to be retained, but I suspect the long term answer will be some intercity services downgraded to class 321 as happens at present,.

10 sets to replace 13..... words fail me.

Well OK not quite - that really is ineptitude of the highest order.

How on earth do they expect to continue to run mk3s when they have run them into the ground, skimping on maintenance (and whenever a carriage has a fault that means it can't run, just permanently removing it from the rake)?
How kindly do they expect the DFT to look upon a request for extended derogation just because they didn't order enough trains?

The 321s are getting a bit tired as well and are in any case an appalling substitute for an intercity train (I know, I'm travelling to Norwich on one as I type!)

I'm staggered......

 

[ashkeba]

Also, as the stock will be maintained at Crown Point, they are presumably going to be rotated to/from the depot by way of covering some Norwich services. So it seems the lottery of whether or not there will be a buffet is to continue indefinitely.
I used to rely on the buffet for breakfast if I had a reasonably early start to be in London. Now I just get up 20 minutes earlier as it can't be relied upon.
In a few years it'll be "we're removing the buffets because nobody uses them".

Won't the maintenance rotation be predictable and so the services using airport units just not have a coffee cup in the timetables?

 

[anamyd]

Oh I don't know if they've all been delivered yet..I think I saw on a thread a week or so back that there are only a couple left to deliver.

thanks

 

[trebor79]

Won't the maintenance rotation be predictable and so the services using airport units just not have a coffee cup in the timetables?

Well you'd think so, but most of the 321 services have a coffee cup in the timetable, despite them being booked turns.

 

[trebor79]

The 321s are getting a bit tired as well and are in any case an appalling substitute for an intercity train (I know, I'm travelling to Norwich on one as I type!)

They are rubbish. I think the unrefurbished ones are slightly less rubbish, odd as that sounds. The refurbed ones just seem to have a very humid armospehere.

 

[BucksBones]

They are rubbish. I think the unrefurbished ones are slightly less rubbish, odd as that sounds. The refurbed ones just seem to have a very humid armospehere.

I guess this is an unrefurbished one then, because it's certainly not humid!
Very draughty and roughly the same temperature as it is outside (ie very cold indeed). After over 2 hours I'm chilled to the bone.

Whilst it's clearly better to stick one of these things on the odd intercity service than cancel it, it's not good enough on a regular, planned basis when people are paying good money.

 

[AC47461]

10 sets to replace 13..... words fail me.

Well OK not quite - that really is ineptitude of the highest order.

How on earth do they expect to continue to run mk3s when they have run them into the ground, skimping on maintenance (and whenever a carriage has a fault that means it can't run, just permanently removing it from the rake)?
How kindly do they expect the DFT to look upon a request for extended derogation just because they didn't order enough trains?

The 321s are getting a bit tired as well and are in any case an appalling substitute for an intercity train (I know, I'm travelling to Norwich on one as I type!)

I'm staggered......

I could be wrong but wasn't the 3rd planned Norwich service per hour supposed to be an extension of a current Ipswich service and filled by a unit (321s now, 720s whenever they crawl out of the factory), in which case 10 units is not quite as bad, but still a bit of a risk, with as mentioned, odd diagrams covered by StanEx versions returning to Crown Point for maintanence?

 

[samuelmorris]

10 sets to replace 13..... words fail me.

Well OK not quite - that really is ineptitude of the highest order.

How on earth do they expect to continue to run mk3s when they have run them into the ground, skimping on maintenance (and whenever a carriage has a fault that means it can't run, just permanently removing it from the rake)?
How kindly do they expect the DFT to look upon a request for extended derogation just because they didn't order enough trains?

The 321s are getting a bit tired as well and are in any case an appalling substitute for an intercity train (I know, I'm travelling to Norwich on one as I type!)

I'm staggered......

The 321 replacement will become a 720 replacement before too long, so it's not quite as much of an issue as it sounds.

 

[86246]

Stansted 105 is this morning’s delivery.

 

[Grumbler]

Stansted 105 is this morning’s delivery.

Why is it taking so long to get them into service? Over nine months so far.

 

[47421]

I could be wrong but wasn't the 3rd planned Norwich service per hour supposed to be an extension of a current Ipswich service and filled by a unit (321s now, 720s whenever they crawl out of the factory), in which case 10 units is not quite as bad, but still a bit of a risk, with as mentioned, odd diagrams covered by StanEx versions returning to Crown Point for maintanence?

Yes the third Norwich is an extension of the Ipswich semi-fast. It was due to be implemented per Franchise Agreement Train Service Requirement 2 WEF May 19, along with Nin90, extra TPH off peak to HertEast and Southend and extension of Norw-Camb hourly to Stansted Apt. As we know only Nin90 delivered (on a 50% on time basis or whatever). Norwich - Stansted happening next week, other than weekday AM when no paths available, although whether they will be able to resource these services who knows, also requires bimodes to operate on electric as coughs and sneezels not allowed under canopy at Stansted Apt, and after the incident at Haughley the other day not sure if electric operation is permitted? Other required enhancements, who knows.

The full timetable recast was due per TSR 3 WEF May 20, but no proposed timetables ever published or consulted on, and seems to have been delayed UFN.

 

[Grumbler]

Yes the third Norwich is an extension of the Ipswich semi-fast. It was due to be implemented per Franchise Agreement Train Service Requirement 2 WEF May 19, along with Nin90, extra TPH off peak to HertEast and Southend and extension of Norw-Camb hourly to Stansted Apt. As we know only Nin90 delivered (on a 50% on time basis or whatever). Norwich - Stansted happening next week, other than weekday AM when no paths available, although whether they will be able to resource these services who knows, also requires bimodes to operate on electric as coughs and sneezels not allowed under canopy at Stansted Apt, and after the incident at Haughley the other day not sure if electric operation is permitted? Other required enhancements, who knows.

The full timetable recast was due per TSR 3 WEF May 20, but no proposed timetables ever published or consulted on, and seems to have been delayed UFN.

Once the extended Ipswich semi-fast is extended to Norwich, then surely one of the two fasts per hour do can omit all stops other than Ipswich to do "Norwich in 90"?

 

[47421]

That is not what FA says. Under TSR3 the weekday maximum journey times requirements are per below. Although like most things GA/DfT promised when FA signed in 2016, what is going to be delivered and when seems to have very little to do with what the FA says.

 

[trebor79]

Once the extended Ipswich semi-fast is extended to Norwich, then surely one of the two fasts per hour do can omit all stops other than Ipswich to do "Norwich in 90"?

That would be a huge degradation of those using the service from Diss, Stowmarket, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford. Longer journey times and commuter rolling stock. No thank you!
I don't think anything other than the present half hourly service is actually needed North of Ipswich.

 

[Grumbler]

That would be a huge degradation of those using the service from Diss, Stowmarket, Manningtree, Colchester, Chelmsford. Longer journey times and commuter rolling stock. No thank you!
I don't think anything other than the present half hourly service is actually needed North of Ipswich.

I don't think Stowmarket would be worse off as it has only one inter-city per hour in the off-peak currently.
But I am inclined to agree with you that Norwich in Ninety is unnecessary.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'll leave this here
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-greater-anglia-on-train-catering-cuts/

RMT slams Abellio Greater Anglia for putting profit before passengers over proposed cuts to on-train catering

RAIL UNION RMT has condemned Abellio – the Dutch state owned operator that runs the Greater Anglia franchise – for proposing cuts to the catering provision on its services between Norwich and London Liverpool Street and is asking members of the public to sign an on-line petition opposing the plans.

Currently the majority of trains on this route have a buffet car service and during the week many trains have an additional trolley catering service.

The union is calling on people to sign an online petition, objecting to the cuts. The petition is available HERE

Under the proposals, a number of weekday and Saturday services would no longer have a catering provision, and no catering at all would be provided on a Sunday. The proposals would also lead to the buffet car being closed for periods during journeys.

RMT believes these proposals are about maximising profit by reducing staffing and will have a negative impact on passengers who value catering facilities on intercity routes.

Between 2014 and 2018, Abellio made a profit of £85 million on the Greater Anglia franchise, and paid out a massive £61 million in dividends to its private shareholders.

The union is also concerned that if these proposals go ahead, Abellio will attempt to cut the catering provision even further in the future. In fact, it has done so before – it axed the trolley service on the Stansted Express route.

RMT is calling on Abellio to halt these cuts and commit to retaining the current level of catering provision on its Intercity Service.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“RMT is under no illusions that these proposals are about cutting staffing and maximising profit.

“Customers travelling long distances value catering facilities and the staff providing these services.

“The union is calling on Abellio to halt these cuts and continue providing a proper catering service for its passengers and we are urging members of the public to back this campaign."

Is this something that has recently been announced or something that has always been the case?

 

[Grumbler]

I'll leave this here
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-greater-anglia-on-train-catering-cuts/



Is this something that has recently been announced or something that has always been the case?

The buffets are closed on a lot of the services anyway, particularly in the evenings.

 

[eastdyke]

I don't think Stowmarket would be worse off as it has only one inter-city per hour in the off-peak currently.
But I am inclined to agree with you that Norwich in Ninety is unnecessary.

The development of service provision on GEML is not about making Stowmarket and any other place '[not] worse off'.
In the case of Stowmarket the population has grown from around 6000 in 1981 to some 20000 now, growth too in its rural catchment area. New [train] service provision is essential to ensure that its increased population can continue to conveniently access work/education/hospital/leisure etc.

I have never been a proponent of Ni90 but, having introduced it, if it is to be continued it does need to work. I would much rather a consistent calling pattern across all services at the 'country' end of the GEML, the new stock does allow for extra calls with (slightly) less time penalty than with the legacy stock.

 

[Pugwash]

Taking some class 365's on hire for a few months to do the Semi Fasts ( Chelmsford Stoppers ) as suggested earlier in this thread increasingly looks like a good idea. There is of course no money available for this.

 

[TheEdge]

Taking some class 365's on hire for a few months to do the Semi Fasts ( Chelmsford Stoppers ) as suggested earlier in this thread increasingly looks like a good idea. There is of course no money available for this.

People need to get this weird obsession with the 365s out of their system. They will never come over to the GEML, even if there was a trillion pounds and a free puppy for everyone. GA is not going to pause all their FLIRT training to then go and train Norwich, Ipswich and London depots to drive 365s, a program that would probably take significantly longer than is left for the new stock to actually come into service. And then wait some more for the FLIRT training to start up again.

If there was ever a realistic prospect of a short term cascade it would have happened at the start of the long franchise, not now.

 

[Midnight Sun]

I'll leave this here
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-on-greater-anglia-on-train-catering-cuts/
Is this something that has recently been announced or something that has always been the case?

Private share holders? As Abellio is wholly owned by the Dutch national rail operator Nederlandse Spoorwegen.

 

[dk1]

The buffets are closed on a lot of the services anyway, particularly in the evenings.

Almost all IC services have catering. They are crewed from the Norwich end so should only be the 2030/2200 up to London and 0600/0625/0700 in the down direction weekdays that do not have this welcome provision.

 

[86246]

Almost all IC services have catering. They are crewed from the Norwich end so should only be the 2030/2200 up to London and 0600/0625/0700 in the down direction weekdays that do not have this welcome provision.

I imagine those services would be the quieter ones anyway as they would be against the main passenger flow.

I’m not sure which services they are planning to cut the catering facilities on a Saturday. The first couple of return trips on a Saturday morning from my experience is quiet. Once the lesuire travel has picked up the buffet will be busy. The late Saturday services from London I have travelled on have had lengthy queues.

A pity really as the 745s will be guaranteed to have buffet counter onboard.

 

[Grumbler]

The development of service provision on GEML is not about making Stowmarket and any other place '[not] worse off'.
In the case of Stowmarket the population has grown from around 6000 in 1981 to some 20000 now, growth too in its rural catchment area. New [train] service provision is essential to ensure that its increased population can continue to conveniently access work/education/hospital/leisure etc.

The third train per hour would improve Stowmarket's service.

I have never been a proponent of Ni90 but, having introduced it, if it is to be continued it does need to work. I would much rather a consistent calling pattern across all services at the 'country' end of the GEML, the new stock does allow for extra calls with (slightly) less time penalty than with the legacy stock.

I agree.

 

[ashkeba]

People need to get this weird obsession with the 365s out of their system. They will never come over to the GEML, even if there was a trillion pounds and a free puppy for everyone. GA is not going to pause all their FLIRT training to then go and train Norwich, Ipswich and London depots to drive 365s, a program that would probably take significantly longer than is left for the new stock to actually come into service. And then wait some more for the FLIRT training to start up again.

If there was ever a realistic prospect of a short term cascade it would have happened at the start of the long franchise, not now.

Hardly a weird obsession to want the unused Networker Expresses to replace the older and less comfortable Bins.

Although it won't happen, it need only need London drivers training and it would be by "pausing" the delayed Aventra training not Flirts and that discussion got shunted off to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...hortage-be-resolved-in-the-short-term.196103/ anyway.