Class 769 for London Gateway freight trial

[InOban]

I thought that the distinguishing feature of Gateway was that it was both a container port and a logistics hub. Ie containers would be unloaded and, instead of being forwarded to an inland terminal, they could be unloaded there for distribution by the 769s to, in particular, central London where access by commercial vehicles is tightly controlled. Final delivery would be by electric vehicle.

 

[James James]

I thought that the distinguishing feature of Gateway was that it was both a container port and a logistics hub. Ie containers would be unloaded and, instead of being forwarded to an inland terminal, they could be unloaded there for distribution by the 769s to, in particular, central London where access by commercial vehicles is tightly controlled. Final delivery would be by electric vehicle.

Indeed - Wikipedia tells me UPS have a Hub there. Which means they're already processing packages individually, at which point it's easy to stick them on trolleys or similar (instead of directly into a Van or whatever else they'd usuallly use).

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought that the distinguishing feature of Gateway was that it was both a container port and a logistics hub...

Of course it is, and the point about it also being a logistics hub was originally clarified in the second reply. Yet the question keeps being re-asked...

 

[SussexLad]

Indeed - Wikipedia tells me UPS have a Hub there. Which means they're already processing packages individually, at which point it's easy to stick them on trolleys or similar (instead of directly into a Van or whatever else they'd usuallly use).

So it it likely that FedEx or royal mail will follow suit? I doubt the service would be that profitable if you're only serving one customer who can push your price right down.

I believe Fed Ex use Stansted as there UK sorting destination. Royal mail are set up there but not sure what it does beyond flights. So why not use stansted instead of central londom, lol.

 

[jopsuk]

packages coming via Gateway will be from AliExpress/etc/any Amazon or ebay seller that gives a delivery time in weeks. Packages coming to Stansted are on a rather faster delivery schedule. My understanding with the Gateway-Liverpool Street service is that it will be packages for delivery in London, fully sorted, to be offloaded straight to delivery vehicles?

 

[rebmcr]

So it it likely that FedEx or royal mail will follow suit? I doubt the service would be that profitable if you're only serving one customer who can push your price right down.

I believe Fed Ex use Stansted as there UK sorting destination. Royal mail are set up there but not sure what it does beyond flights. So why not use stansted instead of central londom, lol.

I'm trying to figure out who has more credibility:

• A freight company which (having access to all the required information about the capabilities of goods terminals) has secured enough funding to have mainline-registered EMUs converted; or
• Someone on an internet forum who has vague, secondhand information, and guesses that the project is unprofitable.

 

[James James]

Not sure I understand the profitability issues: if UPS (or whoever else is there) pushes prices too low, Orion don't have to provide a service. The EMU's are flexible enough to go elsewhere to serve other usecases - there's not much leverage (beyond whatever price level makes the train competitive with - I presume - lorries and Vans right now, factoring in the other factors such as traffic and environmental costs). Presumably they will come up with a contract that is profitable.

Even more so if there's infrastructure involved, IF UPS carries those costs (and if Orion were to carry those costs, I presume they'd factor that in by ensuring a sufficiently long contract to pay for the infrastructure costs).

 

[hwl]

Not sure I understand the profitability issues: if UPS (or whoever else is there) pushes prices too low, Orion don't have to provide a service. The EMU's are flexible enough to go elsewhere to serve other usecases - there's not much leverage (beyond whatever price level makes the train competitive with - I presume - lorries and Vans right now, factoring in the other factors such as traffic and environmental costs). Presumably they will come up with a contract that is profitable.

Even more so if there's infrastructure involved, IF UPS carries those costs (and if Orion were to carry those costs, I presume they'd factor that in by ensuring a sufficiently long contract to pay for the infrastructure costs).

It isn't just about profitability but feasibility /practicality too.
One problem all the delivery companies have (UPS being at the vanguard of this) is that it is very difficult to get a suitable electricity connection at a site for large fleet commercial battery charging anywhere near central London hence if you reduce the trunk mileage from Gateway to the City it becomes far easier to charge the electric vans as a lot less electricity is needed (many vans would only be covering <10 miles a day)
I'd expect 6 custom roll cage trolleys (@ 319 door height minus a small margin ) per electric UPS van.
Starting off in the City might also mean an extra 60-90minutes delivery time per shift.
This is a huge enabler for electric delivery vans in central London.


UPS's other London area hub is near Heathrow T4 hence this is very much focused on the square mile and surrounding areas.

 

[fgwrich]

Of course it is, and the point about it also being a logistics hub was originally clarified in the second reply. Yet the question keeps being re-asked...

Further to this, from the photos that Modern Railways posted yesterday at the demonstration at Eastleigh, the floor of the units have been designed with practicality in mind. So the converted 319s / 769s have both spaces for both roller cages and palletised goods, with rollerballs located in the floor. I'm led to believe that this means pallets with a forklift could be loaded through the doors, as well as your more standard roller cages with a ramp. Clever design work!

 

[hst43102]

Further to this, from the photos that Modern Railways posted yesterday at the demonstration at Eastleigh, the floor of the units have been designed with practicality in mind. So the converted 319s / 769s have both spaces for both roller cages and palletised goods, with rollerballs located in the floor. I'm led to believe that this means pallets with a forklift could be loaded through the doors, as well as your more standard roller cages with a ramp. Clever design work!

Can a regular sized pallet fit through the doors?

 

[SussexLad]

Further to this, from the photos that Modern Railways posted yesterday at the demonstration at Eastleigh, the floor of the units have been designed with practicality in mind. So the converted 319s / 769s have both spaces for both roller cages and palletised goods, with rollerballs located in the floor. I'm led to believe that this means pallets with a forklift could be loaded through the doors, as well as your more standard roller cages with a ramp. Clever design work!

Thats clever, basically a copy of an aircraft hold. I wonder if the rollers are electronic? Could save on manpower

 

[SussexLad]

Not sure I understand the profitability issues: if UPS (or whoever else is there) pushes prices too low, Orion don't have to provide a service. The EMU's are flexible enough to go elsewhere to serve other usecases - there's not much leverage (beyond whatever price level makes the train competitive with - I presume - lorries and Vans right now, factoring in the other factors such as traffic and environmental costs). Presumably they will come up with a contract that is profitable.

Even more so if there's infrastructure involved, IF UPS carries those costs (and if Orion were to carry those costs, I presume they'd factor that in by ensuring a sufficiently long contract to pay for the infrastructure costs).

Very good points. I'm intruiged to see how it pans out over the next 10 years.

I suppose another counter argument to what i said is prices might rise a bit because UPS's competitors might want in on the action IF its cheaper then road.

 

[Darandio]

Can a regular sized pallet fit through the doors?

Well the narrow width of a standard pallet is 40", i'm pretty certain the door width exceeds that. You also have the option of the narrower 'Euro' pallets as well.

 

[SussexLad]

Well the narrow width of a standard pallet is 40", i'm pretty certain the door width exceeds that. You also have the option of the narrower 'Euro' pallets as well.

What happens if someone drives a forklift truck through the windows or doors? How easy would that be to repair? Or how expensive?

I have heard of worse things done with a forklift truck.

Personally, I think given the sorting facility at gateway, a lot of it will be roller cages or unit loading devices. Seems safer.

 

[Darandio]

What happens if someone drives a forklift truck through the windows or doors? How easy would that be to repair? Or how expensive?

I have heard of worse things done with a forklift truck.

Personally, I think given the sorting facility at gateway, a lot of it will be roller cages or unit loading devices. Seems safer.

If they are doing it properly then a forklift track should be going nowhere near the train.

 

[SussexLad]

If they are doing it properly then a forklift track should be going nowhere near the train.

Thats a big if.

People have crashed into bigger things that they should be nowhere near. People can also be inpatient too.

A quick Google found this, honestly not surprised!

The Logistics Channel

We provide you direct access to the entire UK logistics industry through our live and online events, publications, extensive database and digital marketing solutions.

www.shdlogistics.com

 

[fgwrich]

If they are doing it properly then a forklift track should be going nowhere near the train.

I don't see why a skilled forklift driver couldn't lift a pallet into the (open) doors. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to lifting large pallets into racking and shelving.

Here's the link to the twitter.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1292813992482738177/photo/1

 

[SussexLad]

I don't see why a skilled forklift driver couldn't lift a pallet into the (open) doors. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to lifting large pallets into racking and shelving.

Here's the link to the twitter.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1292813992482738177/photo/1

Yes they could but they could also answer their phone and crash it through the train...

Interesting picture on the twitter. Do they have to leave the middle bit empty for emergency use?

 

[Darandio]

I don't see why a skilled forklift driver couldn't lift a pallet into the (open) doors. It wouldn't be too dissimilar to lifting large pallets into racking and shelving.

Here's the link to the twitter.

https://twitter.com/Modern_Railways/status/1292813992482738177/photo/1

Indeed, it shouldn't be a problem at all. I managed to drive a forklift for years in a bonded warehouse without spearing expensive pallets of cigarettes and alcohol, certainly not windows and doors!

There are other ways to do it though if it was something they were concerned about.

 

[Domh245]

Yes they could but they could also answer their phone and crash it through the train...

The same logic applies to forklifts in any setting, indeed if they were to drive through into racking it'd be far more disastrous than spearing the side of a train. If this was such a big concern we wouldn't see forklifts operating at all -it'd be pump trucks to move pallets and warehouses would have footprints the size of small villages.

Forklift drivers are generally competent though and don't tend to be as stupid as to answer phones whilst on the move

 

[hst43102]

Slightly OT...but this reminded me of this video!

Best to get back to the 769's!

 

[markymark2000]

What happens if someone drives a forklift truck through the windows or doors? How easy would that be to repair? Or how expensive?

I have heard of worse things done with a forklift truck.

Personally, I think given the sorting facility at gateway, a lot of it will be roller cages or unit loading devices. Seems safer.

If it's all on rollers, could it be done so that it's similar to loading airplanes? Have the loading platform with rollers as well so the pallets can roll onto the train taking away the risk of a forklift going 'through' the train.

 

[WestRiding]

I really really hope this works. Cities with even the tattiest sidings could be used at minimal expense bar a simple platform. I was thinking the old Cobra sidings at Wakefield, Whitehall Yard in Leeds, loads of city centre potentials. Tinsley in Sheffield.

 

[SussexLad]

If it's all on rollers, could it be done so that it's similar to loading airplanes? Have the loading platform with rollers as well so the pallets can roll onto the train taking away the risk of a forklift going 'through' the train.

Posibilly but then you'd be stuck to specific platforms / sidings and not many passenger stations would have space for a dedicated platform so you'd need to build it in a dedicated siding. Not a massive issue for every city but for some it would be a problem.

I really really hope this works. Cities with even the tattiest sidings could be used at minimal expense bar a simple platform. I was thinking the old Cobra sidings at Wakefield, Whitehall Yard in Leeds, loads of city centre potentials. Tinsley in Sheffield.

Very true but some youd struggle at. Can't think how you'd fit it in at any London station!

 

[Brissle Girl]

Posibilly but then you'd be stuck to specific platforms / sidings and not many passenger stations would have space for a dedicated platform so you'd need to build it in a dedicated siding. Not a massive issue for every city but for some it would be a problem.



Very true but some youd struggle at. Can't think how you'd fit it in at any London station!

I sense you’re constantly trying to come up with reasons why this won’t work, from the economics, through negligent fork lift drivers, and now platform space.

Seems like Liverpool St has space for such a service, so there’s one already to disprove the theory. And more locally to me, Bristol has little or unused siding space both to the south and east of Temple Meads, together with Platform 2, albeit that involves a shunt to get in and out of. There’s spare siding space within Cardiff too, so that’s another one sorted. Maybe it won’t be the big problem you make it out to be?

 

[PeterC]

I sense you’re constantly trying to come up with reasons why this won’t work, from the economics, through negligent fork lift drivers, and now platform space.

Seems like Liverpool St has space for such a service, so there’s one already to disprove the theory. And more locally to me, Bristol has little or unused siding space both to the south and east of Temple Meads, together with Platform 2, albeit that involves a shunt to get in and out of. There’s spare siding space within Cardiff too, so that’s another one sorted. Maybe it won’t be the big problem you make it out to be?

After the general rubbishing of previous suggestions about bringing back parcels the mood seems to have changed a lot. I remember being told I was "wrong" for even suggesting that you could physically push a roll cage through the doors of a suburban EMU.

Sadly I think that this is only going to prove suitable for a limited number of flows.

 

[Class 170101]

Seems like Liverpool St has space for such a service, so there’s one already to disprove the theory.

The timings will be the problem at Liverpool Street, I seem to recall from on this board they wanted a path arriving Liverpool Street around 02:30. I'd be very surprised if NR allowed that, they are already screaming they don't get enough maintenance access there already.

 

[SussexLad]

I sense you’re constantly trying to come up with reasons why this won’t work, from the economics, through negligent fork lift drivers, and now platform space.

Seems like Liverpool St has space for such a service, so there’s one already to disprove the theory. And more locally to me, Bristol has little or unused siding space both to the south and east of Temple Meads, together with Platform 2, albeit that involves a shunt to get in and out of. There’s spare siding space within Cardiff too, so that’s another one sorted. Maybe it won’t be the big problem you make it out to be?

No I'm just being real. Its not as simple as it seems.

Also my point was about riller balls on the platforms. There wouldn't be space for a permanent set up in many stations. You'd need a siding with a purpose built facility / platform

 

[jopsuk]

I'd been wondering why they were doing any 319s (as opposed to all-769) given the operation is to/from an unelectrified freight facility. this tweet explains!

Modern Railways

@Modern_Railways

Yep it is a 319, one other at Eastleigh for corrosion repairs prior to going to Loughborough for diesel fitment, third at Loughborough now. The 769s will work as tractors on London Gateway branch with 319, three daily returns gateway to liv st planned with 8-car formations
5:02 PM · Aug 10, 202

Smart thinking, in that it means converting less units with the diesel package

 

[James James]

Also my point was about riller balls on the platforms. There wouldn't be space for a permanent set up in many stations. You'd need a siding with a purpose built facility / platform

But why? Roller balls are necessary inside the train to manouver more easily in limited space, on the platform you can just use normal vehicles/forklifts, etc?