Class 769 for London Gateway freight trial

[SussexLad]

But why? Roller balls are necessary inside the train to manouver more easily in limited space, on the platform you can just use normal vehicles/forklifts, etc?

Because people do silly things and its dangerous. Personally, i can't imagine a heal and safety executive being thrilled to sign off a forklift truck being used at a busy station with millions of people.

 

[SussexLad]

I'd been wondering why they were doing any 319s (as opposed to all-769) given the operation is to/from an unelectrified freight facility. this tweet explains!


Smart thinking, in that it means converting less units with the diesel package

Smart and efficient use! Didn't know that was possible but makes sense as they are basically the same trains but one with a diesel engine as well.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Because people do silly things and its dangerous. Personally, i can't imagine a heal and safety executive being thrilled to sign off a forklift truck being used at a busy station with millions of people.

Er, I don't think even Liverpool Street with its usage figures of 69 million users per annum ever has "millions of people" in the station all at the same time.

One would surely assume that any platform being used to unload a cargo unit would have some degree of access restrictions in place. They aren't going to just let dozens of people wander about on the platform while they try to unload.

I agree that use of a forklift would probably introduce unnecessary risks, with roll-cages being a more sensible approach. But you seem to be looking to find reasons this experiment will fail, even if you have to use hyperbole to do so.

 

[Domh245]

Er, I don't think even Liverpool Street with its usage figures of 69 million users per annum ever has "millions of people" in the station all at the same time.

One would surely assume that any platform being used to unload a cargo unit would have some degree of access restrictions in place. They aren't going to just let dozens of people wander about on the platform while they try to unload.

Particularly not at 2:30 in the morning, when they want their path(s)!

 

[SussexLad]

Er, I don't think even Liverpool Street with its usage figures of 69 million users per annum ever has "millions of people" in the station all at the same time.

One would surely assume that any platform being used to unload a cargo unit would have some degree of access restrictions in place. They aren't going to just let dozens of people wander about on the platform while they try to unload.

I agree that use of a forklift would probably introduce unnecessary risks, with roll-cages being a more sensible approach. But you seem to be looking to find reasons this experiment will fail, even if you have to use hyperbole to do so.

I know they wouldn't be there all at one time but as you said it get millions of people a week / month / year.

I'm quite excited by the proposals and want them to succeed, I just think it won't be a smooth journey.

Particularly not at 2:30 in the morning, when they want their path(s)!

There are 2 daytime paths that they want, i think I read that earlier in the thread. They'd pose more of a safety risk then the middle of the night.

 

[87015]

Particularly not at 2:30 in the morning, when they want their path(s)!

Shame that all lines are shut into Liv St overnight really then if thats when they want to turn up! They'll have a fight from all corners to try and reverse that given the impact on heavily used infrastructure.

 

[Domh245]

There are 2 daytime paths that they want, i think I read that earlier in the thread. They'd pose more of a safety risk then the middle of the night.

Having gone back and checked the article posted in the original post, they propose departures from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421, and 2100 - not exactly the busiest times of day.

It's a moot point anyway as I suspect that they'd just barrier off the platform whilst doing the loading/unloading.

 

[SussexLad]

Having gone back and checked the article posted in the original post, they propose departures from Liverpool Street at 0242, 1421, and 2100 - not exactly the busiest times of day.

It's a moot point anyway as I suspect that they'd just barrier off the platform whilst doing the loading/unloading.

True it won't be that busy but still why use something risky in a public place? Just use roll cages as much as you can.

On their website the stated journey time is 1 hour. Leaving approx an hour to turn the train around at Liverpool Street. For an 8 carriage train, sounds doable. Speed is critical at liverpool street by the sounds of it.

Would be fascinating to watch!

 

[fgwrich]

After the general rubbishing of previous suggestions about bringing back parcels the mood seems to have changed a lot. I remember being told I was "wrong" for even suggesting that you could physically push a roll cage through the doors of a suburban EMU.

Sadly I think that this is only going to prove suitable for a limited number of flows.

Re the cage through the suburban unit doors. It looks a little tight at the top but fits.

https://twitter.com/andym13/status/1293314903990829061?s=21

 

[SussexLad]

Re the cage through the suburban unit doors. It looks a little tight at the top but fits.

https://twitter.com/andym13/status/1293314903990829061?s=21

Anyone else look at that and get a massive throw back / shivers down your spine? Reminds me of being a kid and going to scary London on a 319 like an adult!

Glad they haven another life tho. Decent units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

True it won't be that busy but still why use something risky in a public place? Just use roll cages as much as you can.

On their website the stated journey time is 1 hour. Leaving approx an hour to turn the train around at Liverpool Street. For an 8 carriage train, sounds doable. Speed is critical at liverpool street by the sounds of it.

Would be fascinating to watch!

AFAIK the only mentions of using forklift trucks (including my own) were purely speculative. Roll cages seems far more practical even if it requires a custom height.

The safety issues you yourself have mentioned might make it tricky to be able to watch, as they'll almost certainly have to restrict access to that platform while loading and unloading, at least for the afternoon and evening slots.

 

[SussexLad]

AFAIK the only mentions of using forklift trucks (including my own) were purely speculative. Roll cages seems far more practical even if it requires a custom height.

The safety issues you yourself have mentioned might make it tricky to be able to watch, as they'll almost certainly have to restrict access to that platform while loading and unloading, at least for the afternoon and evening slots.

Time to buy a pair of binoculars! Lol

 

[PeterC]

AFAIK the only mentions of using forklift trucks (including my own) were purely speculative. Roll cages seems far more practical even if it requires a custom height.

The safety issues you yourself have mentioned might make it tricky to be able to watch, as they'll almost certainly have to restrict access to that platform while loading and unloading, at least for the afternoon and evening slots.

Mixing modern roll cages with passengers is surely no more dangerous than the BRUTE trolleys that used to be hauled around the major stations. I think that the question of forklifes only arose when somebody said that there was no loading dock at London Gateway.

Mixtures of items of varying sizes aren't going to fit on a pallet and will have to go into roll cages. My experience of deliveries in my working life is that goods are only despatched on a pallet when you have a decent number of identical boxes for the same recipient.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Might some on here be overlooking the fact that this is a trial, and the partners won't be wanting to sink too much cash into the infrastructure until it is proven and the model developed ?

Just saying

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mixing modern roll cages with passengers is surely no more dangerous than the BRUTE trolleys that used to be hauled around the major stations. I think that the question of forklifes only arose when somebody said that there was no loading dock at London Gateway.

Mixtures of items of varying sizes aren't going to fit on a pallet and will have to go into roll cages. My experience of deliveries in my working life is that goods are only despatched on a pallet when you have a decent number of identical boxes for the same recipient.

In my experience with deliveries (working for a major electrical retailer who shall remain nameless) we got all sorts of things all shrinkwrapped onto pallets, with apparently very little thought given to stability!

I agree that a few roll-cages shouldn't be a major safety issue, but it would only take one thing to go wrong somewhere for it to become a problem. If I was responsible for public liability I'd want to absolutely minimise any risk of the company being faced with a hefty bill because a roll-cage ran over somebody's foot.

Thinking about it, besides safety the risk of theft from the roll-cages might be something that this trial will need to consider.

 

[James James]

Surprise surprise, cages it appears are the primary method:

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1293533870764232704

And for the 200th time surely: these platforms will not be publicly accessible... Secondly, didn't the royal mail used to load some stuff at platforms in the past?

 

[ExRes]

Surprise surprise, cages it appears are the primary method:

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1293533870764232704

And for the 200th time surely: these platforms will not be publicly accessible... Secondly, didn't the royal mail used to load some stuff at platforms in the past?

Precisely, although in my experience Railtrack always insisted on a heavy medical presence in case some of the cages went rogue ........

 

[furnessvale]

Precisely, although in my experience Railtrack always insisted on a heavy medical presence in case some of the cages went rogue ........

Not sure if there is a joke element in your posting, but it would be an interesting possibility if Railtrack's demands affected the viability of mail by rail operations.

 

[PeterC]

Surprise surprise, cages it appears are the primary method:

https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1293533870764232704

And for the 200th time surely: these platforms will not be publicly accessible... Secondly, didn't the royal mail used to load some stuff at platforms in the past?

Regularly. I remember trains of barrows loaded with mailbags being hauled through the passenger circulation areas at Liverpool Street.

 

[supervc-10]

Given that supermarkets are perfectly happy to drag pallets around shops full of people, I can't quite see how a platform is that different, especially when those areas would be cordoned off.

 

[ExRes]

Not sure if there is a joke element in your posting, but it would be an interesting possibility if Railtrack's demands affected the viability of mail by rail operations.

The only thing that didn't have a joke element was the word 'precisely', I can't credit that anyone could believe that todays working methods and H&S would allow passengers and roller cages to be sharing a platform at the same time

 

[Bald Rick]

The only thing that didn't have a joke element was the word 'precisely', I can't credit that anyone could believe that todays working methods and H&S would allow passengers and roller cages to be sharing a platform at the same time

But they do today. Roll cages of products for retail, for example. Similarly the tractor units pulling half a dozen dumpster bins, or modular catering units for train replenishment, etc.

 

[SussexLad]

But they do today. Roll cages of products for retail, for example. Similarly the tractor units pulling half a dozen dumpster bins, or modular catering units for train replenishment, etc.

On paper, strong winds could tip a roll cage over. Particularly if they are tall or solid sides.

The only other problem I can see is if someone sees a nice looking package and slips it into their pocket.

Not saying thats a good thing to do. But mail theft is on the rise...

 

[Bald Rick]

On paper, strong winds could tip a roll cage over. Particularly if they are tall or solid sides.

The only other problem I can see is if someone sees a nice looking package and slips it into their pocket.

Not saying thats a good thing to do. But mail theft is on the rise...

Well I hope that all the roll cages stacked on the pavement outside my local Tesco Metro alongside a busy A Road are suitably ballasted in the event of gale force winds (or a passing bus).

And only yesterday I walked past an unattended drinks delivery van with a couple of cases of Bollinger in easy reach.

Why is a station platform different?

 

[rebmcr]

On paper, strong winds could tip a roll cage over. Particularly if they are tall or solid sides.

Yes but on concrete or tarmac I think it will be fine.

 

[fgwrich]

On paper, strong winds could tip a roll cage over. Particularly if they are tall or solid sides.

The only other problem I can see is if someone sees a nice looking package and slips it into their pocket.

Not saying thats a good thing to do. But mail theft is on the rise...

Sigh, more negativity. Have you worked with these type of large roll cages? They are incredibly weighted at the bottom and takes a lot to tip them over. It even takes a lot to tip a foldable one over with a dodgy wheel. I know as I have previously worked behind the scenes for 2 well known retailers who use similar cages. Further to the second point if cages are used and the sides are taped / covered up, with the load harnessed, it takes a lot of will to remove something from the inside.

 

[londonteacher]

Personally, I think this is a great idea!

319s/769s are perfect as well because the 325s were based on the same design!

 

[furnessvale]

Sigh, more negativity. Have you worked with these type of large roll cages? They are incredibly weighted at the bottom and takes a lot to tip them over. It even takes a lot to tip a foldable one over with a dodgy wheel. I know as I have previously worked behind the scenes for 2 well known retailers who use similar cages. Further to the second point if cages are used and the sides are taped / covered up, with the load harnessed, it takes a lot of will to remove something from the inside.

Yet another example, if one were needed, why rail (used to) provide 5% of the passenger transport of the UK. The difference in safety requirements between rail and other surface transport is astounding and certainly reflects in the cost and reliability of the respective modes.

 

[SussexLad]

Sigh, more negativity. Have you worked with these type of large roll cages? They are incredibly weighted at the bottom and takes a lot to tip them over. It even takes a lot to tip a foldable one over with a dodgy wheel. I know as I have previously worked behind the scenes for 2 well known retailers who use similar cages. Further to the second point if cages are used and the sides are taped / covered up, with the load harnessed, it takes a lot of will to remove something from the inside.

The point is you are likely to have to barrier off the areas where you are unloading. Pointless really hence why I said "on paper"

 

[Rick1984]

Sounds like a great idea. They look fantastic, better than any passenger livery out there.
If it's a success it would look good if they could blank the windows properly