Class 800 upgrades to address performance and reliability issues

[voyagerdude220]

It seems like this evening's 17:30 London Paddington to Taunton encountered a technical fault in the Slough area. It's terminating at Bristol Temple Meads tonight.

 

[43096]

Yes, hysteria is overblown. The same few posters keep trolling out the same tired arguments and adopt the same repetitive finger pointing exercise, demonstrating little understanding of how this situation has actually come about nor how it can be resolved.

How many WoE services ran 5 vice 10 today? I know there were 5 sets short formed across the 800/802 fleet today - I saw a good number of the WoE diagrams go past me during the day and they all seemed to be 9 or 10 car sets barring one up working this morning (suitable for a 5 car anyway).

I am one of those who have travelled on far too many 5 vice 10 IETs recently and realise that big efforts need to be made to sort it out, but post after post of 'WorstGroup did this' and '(s)Hitachi did that' is frankly dull, often wide of the mark and actually doesn't give the detail of what's going on, which I'm sure is actually what most of us are interested in.

If you don't like opinions on a forum, you know what to do.......

There are far too many people tolerating a lowering of standards and expectations. I actually believe we should have an expectation that things improve rather the just having to accept whatever dross is foisted on us ("just be glad you get a seat" and all that). In this case we've gone backwards.

 

[irish_rail]

If you don't like opinions on a forum, you know what to do.......

There are far too many people tolerating a lowering of standards and expectations. I actually believe we should have an expectation that things improve rather the just having to accept whatever dross is foisted on us ("just be glad you get a seat" and all that). In this case we've gone backwards.

Agreed. Customers on so called intercity routes should have the highest expectations , and as an industry we should be aiming to meet them.
Strive for excellence rather than tolerating mediocrity...

 

[northernbelle]

If you don't like opinions on a forum, you know what to do.......

There are far too many people tolerating a lowering of standards and expectations. I actually believe we should have an expectation that things improve rather the just having to accept whatever dross is foisted on us ("just be glad you get a seat" and all that). In this case we've gone backwards.

Yes I do! Challenge them with some facts and evidence. If you don't like that, you know what to do too.....

 

[jimm]

Iwest country trains (remember it's only an hourly service)

Can you at least get basic facts right?

Or don't the various departures to Taunton, Exeter or Paignton (most leaving Paddington at xx.33) count as West Country services in your mind?

The current service pattern provides a half-hourly frequency from Paddington as far as Exeter from 16.03 to 19.03.

In addition to the ones that run all year, there is also a 14.33 extra to Exeter on summer Fridays and the 18.33 is extended from Exeter to Plymouth on summer Fridays as well. There will be a regular semi-fast Exeter or Paignton departure every two hours year-round with the new timetable, never mind any summer extras/alterations.

 

[irish_rail]

Can you at least get basic facts right?

Or don't the various departures to Taunton, Exeter or Paignton (most leaving Paddington at xx.33) count as West Country services in your mind?

The current service pattern provides a half-hourly frequency from Paddington as far as Exeter from 16.03 to 19.03.

In addition to the ones that run all year, there is also a 14.33 extra to Exeter on summer Fridays and the 18.33 is extended from Exeter to Plymouth on summer Fridays as well. There will be a regular semi-fast Exeter or Paignton departure every two hours year-round with the new timetable, never mind any summer extras/alterations.

Yes but these services cater mainly for the likes of Newbury pewsey etc and are dead beyond Westbury . They are not comparable to a London to Penzance express.

 

[jimm]

Yes but these services cater mainly for the likes of Newbury pewsey etc and are dead beyond Westbury . They are not comparable to a London to Penzance express.

They are still part of the service to the West Country, whether you like it or not.

 

[ainsworth74]

To be clear this thread is for discussions around the reliability of class 800s. It is not a venue to discuss wider issues with the units be that timetabling, interior designs or anything else. Posts of such natures are off-topic and are now liable for deletion. Please keep replies focused to the topic at hand only.

 

[irish_rail]

Some cosy ones today
5.29 Plymouth to London and 0748 paignton to Paddington via bristol both formed 5 vice 9 or 10.

 

[cactustwirly]

I was thinking about that point - With the late notice amendment for the Cl.800 to run further and longer on Diesel (vice Electric), Hitachi uprated the engines to the Cl.802 spec - correct? (Please correct, if not).
Did Hitatchi miss a step or two, in considering the impact of the higher workload on the spec for initially running on Electric with short distance / contingency Diesel?

I may (and probably am) talking rubbish - but the need to uprate the original engines beyond design could lead to the current overheating issues (if the spec is slightly different between the 800 and 802.

Nope, because the powerpacks in the 800s are identical to the 802s.
The 802s only have different software, plus a bigger fuel tank and a bigger bank of resistors for the rheostatic brakes.

 

[irish_rail]

Some cosy ones today
5.29 Plymouth to London and 0748 paignton to Paddington via bristol both formed 5 vice 9 or 10.

Plus 1a77 is 15 odd late due to technical problems. One really does wonder what hope we have of the December timetable improvements actually happening.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The 800 and 802 sets have the same 1550L capacity fuel tanks and have had since entering passenger service.

 

[VP185]

Class 800 fuel tanks had a capacity of 1300 litres, 802’s have 1550 litres
Class 800’s we’re going to be retrofitted with 1550 litre tanks but I don’t know if this has happened

 

[158820]

Class 800 fuel tanks had a capacity of 1300 litres, 802’s have 1550 litres
Class 800’s we’re going to be retrofitted with 1550 litre tanks but I don’t know if this has happened

Yes it has Clarence Yard has just confirmed it in post above yours(for the 10th time Id say)

 

[irish_rail]

1a88 now caped in Cornwall with no windscreen wipers, really not a good day on the wofe line!!!!

 

[VP185]

I’m not so sure that what Clarence Yard is saying is correct though.

 

[cactustwirly]

I’m not so sure that what Clarence Yard is saying is correct though.

It is! Trust me, they work at GWR, and I'm guessing a position that is quite high up.

 

[hwl]

I’m not so sure that what Clarence Yard is saying is correct though.

At a guess the original plan might have been for 800s to have 1,300L tanks but the probably spec got changed when electrification got delayed /deferred /cancelled to match the 802s

 

[800002]

The 800 and 802 sets have the same 1550L capacity fuel tanks and have had since entering passenger service.

Nope, because the powerpacks in the 800s are identical to the 802s.
The 802s only have different software, plus a bigger fuel tank and a bigger bank of resistors for the rheostatic brakes.

We're they designed / originally spec'd that way?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The 800 fleet was originally spec'd to be 565kw with 1350L tanks. When the chaos of the GWML electrification finally was recognized by the DfT, they authorized 700kw and 1550L tanks for the 800 fleet under VN0024, issued in early-ish 2017. The first one to be fitted with a 1550L tank, irrc, was 800004 which was the one that I used for the 800 fuel tests, to obtain the real (as opposed to contracted) fuel range.

If you are going by what is on Wiki, then please don't. If you definitive proof that there is a GWR 800 set running around with a 1350L tank underneath it, then I would be delighted to know!! I suspect you will have a hard job.

 

[800002]

The 800 fleet was originally spec'd to be 565kw with 1350L tanks. When the chaos of the GWML electrification finally was recognized by the DfT, they authorized 700kw and 1550L tanks for the 800 fleet under VN0024, issued in early-ish 2017. The first one to be fitted with a 1550L tank, irrc, was 800004 which was the one that I used for the 800 fuel tests, to obtain the real (as opposed to contracted) fuel range.

Thanks - that's what I was looking for.
I knew the 800s were uprated but didn't know from what.

I believe (but not certain) 800002 was the first unit to get past Southall (IIRC) with the uprated engines to assess the HST timings for paddington - bristol parkway.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Today's 10.00 Penzance - Paddington was 802 112 and I noticed on Real Time Trains that it was gradually losing time from Cambourne onwards until it was 24 late around Pewsey but then pulled back three minutes from Savernake ( well, it's all downhill from there! ) and only stabilised from Newbury onwards; when I boarded it at Reading I asked one of the staff if it had an engine out and the answer was, surprisingly, it had three engines failed so only two working.

So, with only 40% power it only lost 21 minutes overall between Cambourne and Newbury. That strikes me as quite a creditable performance in the circumstances?

 

[samuelmorris]

Today's 10.00 Penzance - Paddington was 802 112 and I noticed on Real Time Trains that it was gradually losing time from Cambourne onwards until it was 24 late around Pewsey but then pulled back three minutes from Savernake ( well, it's all downhill from there! ) and only stabilised from Newbury onwards; when I boarded it at Reading I asked one of the staff if it had an engine out and the answer was, surprisingly, it had three engines failed so only two working.

So, with only 40% power it only lost 21 minutes overall between Cambourne and Newbury. That strikes me as quite a creditable performance in the circumstances?

Three engines out on a unit less than a year old.. It's impressive the service was able to run to any reasonable timescale with only 1880hp but I can't say it's pleasing to hear about!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Three engines out on a unit less than a year old.. It's impressive the service was able to run to any reasonable timescale with only 1880hp but I can't say it's pleasing to hear about!

My greater surprise was they allowed it to run over the banks in that state...

 

[CharlesR]

It seems like some people on this website have been crying since June when we lost the HSTs and are isolated from the fact that there were actually delays, cancellations and faults on the Great Western Mainline like currently, and to the same level. Infact, the 800s mile per technical incident is lower than that of a HST.

 

[samuelmorris]

It seems like some people on this website have been crying since June when we lost the HSTs and are isolated from the fact that there were actually delays, cancellations and faults on the Great Western Mainline like currently, and to the same level. Infact, the 800s mile per technical incident is lower than that of a HST.

At what point does just running slower than usual count as a TIN? How much slower does the run have to be? In any event, while you are absolutely right about unit reliability, beating the GWR HSTs with the fault-prone ATP kit is a null challenge. The 80x fleet are just about managing 10k MTIN so far, compare that to 20k for Pendolinos and 40k for 222s and it's distinctly underwhelming. It's also lower than LNER and EMT's HSTs. There is a lot of work still to be done. Just because the reliability of the fleet they replaced was appalling and the 800s are providing a big improvement in MTIN figures doesn't mean they are performing satisfactorily yet.

 

[northernbelle]

At what point does just running slower than usual count as a TIN? How much slower does the run have to be? In any event, while you are absolutely right about unit reliability, beating the GWR HSTs with the fault-prone ATP kit is a null challenge. The 80x fleet are just about managing 10k MTIN so far, compare that to 20k for Pendolinos and 40k for 222s and it's distinctly underwhelming. It's also lower than LNER and EMT's HSTs. There is a lot of work still to be done. Just because the reliability of the fleet they replaced was appalling and the 800s are providing a big improvement in MTIN figures doesn't mean they are performing satisfactorily yet.

It is a technical incident that causes a delay of 3 minutes or greater, so trains with engines out running late should be represented in the data.

Quite right about performance not yet being satisfactory, though not forgetting the 800s and 802s are also fitted with the 'fault-prone ATP kit'.

More curious is the fact that the 802s appear to be achieving nearly twice the MTIN as the 800s according to the latest Modern Railways table. Even more curious when you consider the fleet is smaller and the mileage is smaller (both factors that often pull the MTIN down), so I'm not sure what's causing the difference.

 

[irish_rail]

It seems like some people on this website have been crying since June when we lost the HSTs and are isolated from the fact that there were actually delays, cancellations and faults on the Great Western Mainline like currently, and to the same level. Infact, the 800s mile per technical incident is lower than that of a HST.

So to summarise, yesterday on the wofe route alone,
0529 ply to padd 5 vice 10
0748 paignton to padd 5 vice 9
0555 pz to padd delayed by door problems in Cornwall and near London
1000 pz to padd 20 odd down with engines out
1204 pz to padd cancelled at truro failed.
I would estimate that is nearly a third of wofe diagrams in an absolute state and you see that as acceptable ? HSTs where never this bad....

 

[43096]

It seems like some people on this website have been crying since June when we lost the HSTs and are isolated from the fact that there were actually delays, cancellations and faults on the Great Western Mainline like currently, and to the same level. Infact, the 800s mile per technical incident is lower than that of a HST.

Your last sentence is contradictory to the rest of your post.

The GWR HST reliability was poor - it was the worst HST fleet for many, many years and substantially less than all other operators.

 

[Siemens Staines]

So to summarise, yesterday on the wofe route alone,
0529 ply to padd 5 vice 10
0748 paignton to padd 5 vice 9
0555 pz to padd delayed by door problems in Cornwall and near London
1000 pz to padd 20 odd down with engines out
1204 pz to padd cancelled at truro failed.
I would estimate that is nearly a third of wofe diagrams in an absolute state and you see that as acceptable ? HSTs where never this bad....

You have omitted 1603 Paddington to Penzance which was cancelled throughout and should have been the return of the poorly 802112 as described by Peter Mugridge in #263. 1C88 is easily overlooked because it has been deleted from RTT (& other databases?), but it was listed as a cancellation on GWR journeycheck yesterday afternoon;

Train Cancellations
14:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central due 16:22
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:29