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Co-workers nonchalantly sharing Oyster Travelcards

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benk1342

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The current thread about (ab)use of staff travel privileges got me thinking about a common practice among my co-workers (non-rail industry): sharing Travelcards. Often when someone in my office wants to go somewhere over the lunch hour, they will borrow a colleague's Oyster season Travelcard. (I don't do this.) This is seen as being nice and helping each other out, and people in my office seem to think it is ok because (1) two people aren't using it at once; (2) fares are too high and we are all being ripped off; (3) the tubes are running anyway so it isn't costing anyone anything; (4) the risk of getting caught is very low as regular adult Oyster Travelcards don't require a photo card.

I think it is a big deal, not only because it is against the Travelcard terms and conditions but also because it is morally wrong. What do others think? Am I making too much of this?
 
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maniacmartin

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I agree it is a big deal. Its simple fare evasion, and the end result is the fares that honest passengers pay go up to subsidise your co-workers.

"The risk of getting caught is very low" applies to many crimes, but doesn't justify them!
 

yorkie

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If they want to share Oyster cards they should stick to (undiscounted) PAYG, the sharing of which is permitted.
 

maniacmartin

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If they want to share Oyster cards they should stick to (undiscounted) PAYG, the sharing of which is permitted.

But the whole reason they're sharing is to share the Travelcard discount, which they clearly know isn't allowed
 

yorkie

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But the whole reason they're sharing is to share the Travelcard discount, which they clearly know isn't allowed
A Travelcard isn't a discount as such (a discount is an entitlement to a cheaper fare e.g. a Railcard). It will effectively allow the person borrowing it to travel for free. The sharing of a Travelcard is not permitted.

However they can share a (non-discounted) PAYG card. In some cases this will not cost the holder of the card any extra money, if they are (or are going to be) capped anyway. That is permitted, irrespective of whether or not the other person is going to be travelling effectively for free.
 

JamesRowden

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Maybe TfL should just scrap travelcards.

Long ques of people waiting to top up PAYG oysters could be solved by people paying online (and getting a discount).
 

yorkie

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Maybe TfL should just scrap travelcards.
That would be fine (in-boundary)... if the PAYG caps were massively reduced. In short: not going to happen.

5 x Zone 1-6 Peak caps are £15.80 each, totalling £79.00 but a 7 Day Travelcard for the same Zones is only £53.40 and yet not only gives the same validity as 5 x Zone 1-6 Peak caps but the additional validity of 2 x Zone 1-6 Off Peak caps at weekends (which, admittedly, many people won't use most weekends).

If the peak cap was reduced to £10 and the Off Peak cap reduced to £7 they may be able to get away with it, but anything more than that and I would expect huge objections.
 

benk1342

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Maybe TfL should just scrap travelcards.

Or start requiring photocards for season tickets as the TOCs do. People would moan about the one-off inconvenience of having to get a photo Oyster card but I think it would eliminate casual sharing among (otherwise) honest people in a stroke.

Oddly, earlier this year a photocard started to be required for seven-day out-boundary paper Travelcards. Why require it for paper ones but not for Oyster-based ones?
 

LexyBoy

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I think they're probably right on point (4) though - has anyone ever been asked to prove that they are the "owner" of a Travelcard?

Recently I overheard two people talking on the bus, one nonchalantly mentioned that she had lent her (NR) Season ticket to her boyfriend for a couple of days. I was tempted to mention the potential outcomes of this for both of them, but didn't think my advice would be well taken!

Maybe TfL should just scrap travelcards.

Long ques of people waiting to top up PAYG oysters could be solved by people paying online (and getting a discount).

I'm not sure I follow. Scrapping Travelcards would I'm sure be popular with some at TfL as it would effectively be a massive fare rise for all regular commuters. If you're suggesting that the PAYG cap be extended beyond a day and cap at the weekly/monthly/annual Travelcard rate then this would be a good thing, although I expect rather hard to do with the current system.

Why not just have a Photocard with Oyster Travelcards as with all NR Seasons and discounted Oyster products such as Zip?

However they can share a (non-discounted) PAYG card. In some cases this will not cost the holder of the card any extra money, if they are (or are going to be) capped anyway. That is permitted, irrespective of whether or not the other person is going to be travelling effectively for free.

I always found this rather unusually generous. I suppose it would be impractical to police terms which said "you may lend your Oyster card, but it may only be used by one person in any given day".
 

Tibbs

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That would be fine (in-boundary)... if the PAYG caps were massively reduced. In short: not going to happen.

Given I pay £8.33 per day for my 1-10 travel card (Watford), you'd be looking at a travelcard cost of that much for peak travel. An anytime travelcard from Watford to Z1-6 costs £20.20, you're right, not going to happen!
 

JamesRowden

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I'm not sure I follow. Scrapping Travelcards would I'm sure be popular with some at TfL as it would effectively be a massive fare rise for all regular commuters. If you're suggesting that the PAYG cap be extended beyond a day and cap at the weekly/monthly/annual Travelcard rate then this would be a good thing, although I expect rather hard to do with the current system.

I'm suggesting the simplest system possible. Each journey is charged inpendently. No cap system. As you point out, if the fares were kept as they are, overall people would have to pay more. However, if all the individual fares were reduced in order to strike a balance, there would be a reduction in overall cost for those who do not use TfL enough to make a travelcard worth it.

I do not see why ten people each making one journey should collectively have to pay more than one person making ten journeys.
 

yorkie

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I do not see why ten people each making one journey should collectively have to pay more than one person making ten journeys.
And go back to the bad old days? No thanks! The Travelcard is hugely successful, the introduction of the Travelcard increased patronage, particularly for travelling off peak. Your proposal would decrease costs for tourists & visitors (who would be prepared to pay more) but cause hardship for Londoners, as well as increasing road use and therefore congestion and pollution.

Do you also want to see Rovers & Day Rangers scrapped too?
 

RJ

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I'm suggesting the simplest system possible. Each journey is charged inpendently. No cap system. As you point out, if the fares were kept as they are, overall people would have to pay more. However, if all the individual fares were reduced in order to strike a balance, there would be a reduction in overall cost for those who do not use TfL enough to make a travelcard worth it.

I do not see why ten people each making one journey should collectively have to pay more than one person making ten journeys.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that you don't live in London. Nobody that does would come up with such an inane, regressive suggestion like scrapping Travelcards.

 

JamesRowden

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I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and suggest that you don't live in London. Nobody that does would come up with such an inane, regressive suggestion like scrapping Travelcards.


So you believe that those who use a service a little should subsidise those who use it a lot?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you also want to see Rovers & Day Rangers scrapped too?

Maybe :D
 
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maniacmartin

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I always assumed that sharing PAYG oysters would have been against the rules if it meant that the daily cap had/would be reached that day, so thanks for that tip yorkie :)

Travelcards only able to be loaded onto a new type of photo-ID oyster, as suggested above, would go a long way towards solving the shared travelcard problem, however I'm not sure how widespread a problem travelcard sharing is. Is it quite commonplace? It would have to be relatively widespread to justify the cost of implementing new systems and the hassle of commuters having to get a passport photo or upload a JPEG to some TfL website to get their oysters made, as well not being able to walk away immediately with the Oyster.

(and thanks yorkie for correcting my typo "travelcard discount".)
 

OwlMan

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Can a RPI /ticket inspector find out who is the owner of a registered travelcard easily?
 

northwichcat

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If they want to share Oyster cards they should stick to (undiscounted) PAYG, the sharing of which is permitted.

And those are very useful for companies who are not London based but have various staff going to London for meetings at different times on different days.
 

Mojo

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Can a RPI /ticket inspector find out who is the owner of a registered travelcard easily?
Not without a telephone call.

TfL and London Underground aren't overly concerned with people sharing Oyster Travelcards, hence there being no requirement for Photocards.

Lost or stolen Oystercards can be Hotlisted overnight, whereas this is not so easy with 'Paper' Travelcards, hence the reason for a Photocard, in case the ticket is stolen, or reported lost, and then two tickets will be in use and only one paid for.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
how often are photocards checked in anycase?
Revenue Control can set up an alert on the gatelines for ''High Value'' tickets and this will flash up an alert for the staff to perform a manual check. There are a lot more ticket inspectors on the Underground than you may expect, but unless you hold a ticket which they want to perform a manual check on, you are unlikely to be stopped as 'random' inspections, or inspections of all customers aren't as frequent.
 

Deerfold

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Not without a telephone call.


Revenue Control can set up an alert on the gatelines for ''High Value'' tickets and this will flash up an alert for the staff to perform a manual check. There are a lot more ticket inspectors on the Underground than you may expect, but unless you hold a ticket which they want to perform a manual check on, you are unlikely to be stopped as 'random' inspections, or inspections of all customers aren't as frequent.

And I get checked every time - always been in order so far :lol:

So you believe that those who use a service a little should subsidise those who use it a lot?

I believe the current system keeps an awful lot of private traffic off the roads and would support anything keeping it that way. As soon as you start making a charge per journey the only way of paying, car use becomes more attractive.
 
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benk1342

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As soon as you start making a charge per journey the only way of paying, car use becomes more attractive.

Agreed. I know that some people buy a Travelcard because it is easier/simpler/more convenient even though with their particular pattern of use PAYG would be cheaper. This is particularly true with out-boundary season ticket holders, who might buy a Travelcard season yet only make one return tube journey a day. So I think getting rid of Travelcards might be a mistake.
 

snail

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So you believe that those who use a service a little should subsidise those who use it a lot?
I think you've got your logic in a twist. It's the frequent users who are subsidising the infrequent. You have to think of it in terms of revenue, not people or journeys.

Your 10 people making 10 journeys may do that once or twice a week, generating say £1,000 in revenue at a fiver a go. The one person does that every week. So if 10 people make 10 journeys a week that's £5,000 in revenue, less their travelcard discount.

As I said, who's subsidising who?
 

JamesRowden

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I think you've got your logic in a twist. It's the frequent users who are subsidising the infrequent. You have to think of it in terms of revenue, not people or journeys.

Your 10 people making 10 journeys may do that once or twice a week, generating say £1,000 in revenue at a fiver a go. The one person does that every week. So if 10 people make 10 journeys a week that's £5,000 in revenue, less their travelcard discount.

As I said, who's subsidising who?

I am proposing scrapping travel cards all together and making the price of each journey independently priced (therefore your example is of no relevance). I am simply asking why when a person makes more than one journey each journey becomes cheaper even though the quantity of service that the person recieves is equal to that which multiple people would collectively recieve.

I can understand why products where some costs are independant of order size (e.g. packaging/delivery) that greater batches should be cheaper because it costs the supplier less to produce.

One example of my suggestion would be cutting the price of singles to the price that one would effectively pay if they were using a travelcard. As a result those who presently do not use public transport in London much would start to use it more.

I think that we should take advantage of 21st century technology such as Oyster cards that were not available when travelcards were introduced. When travelcards were introduced they made perfect sense because they allowed someone to travel frequently with having to buy a new ticket each time (saving time and effort [and therefore money] for both the customer and the operator). However, now that Oyster cards have arrived and we also have a ability to pay for things online in the comfort of our homes (in one big go as PAYG), travelcards are no longer the only solution to that problem. Direct debit could even be used (with an extra discount).

Tickets prices at different routes/times could vary more than they do at the momment to encourage people to make more efficient use of services (making sure some are not too full and that others are not empty). A person could quickly use their computer/smart phone to compare different journey possibilities just before they travel (or well in advance) so that they know what fare they will pay.

If someone has their Oyster card stollen from them they could have a note of its designation to report to TfL and the thief could then be caught on CCTV using it to pass though the barriers (it would be easy to track since the location of each Oyster card is already used in order to calculate the fare).

To summarise I simply think that we need to take advantage of the new technology available to create a better system and to not keep one that is still subject to the limitations of the past.
 

Deerfold

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I am proposing scrapping travel cards all together and making the price of each journey independently priced (therefore your example is of no relevance). I am simply asking why when a person makes more than one journey each journey becomes cheaper even though the quantity of service that the person recieves is equal to that which multiple people would collectively recieve.

I can understand why products where some costs are independant of order size (e.g. packaging/delivery) that greater batches should be cheaper because it costs the supplier less to produce.

One example of my suggestion would be cutting the price of singles to the price that one would effectively pay if they were using a travelcard. As a result those who presently do not use public transport in London much would start to use it more.

Are there a huge number of these people? I think only a minority at the moment drive - and most of those do it because they need things in their car/van or could not stand travelling with other people.

I think that we should take advantage of 21st century technology such as Oyster cards that were not available when travelcards were introduced. When travelcards were introduced they made perfect sense because they allowed someone to travel frequently with having to buy a new ticket each time (saving time and effort [and therefore money] for both the customer and the operator). However, now that Oyster cards have arrived and we also have a ability to pay for things online in the comfort of our homes (in one big go as PAYG), travelcards are no longer the only solution to that problem. Direct debit could even be used (with an extra discount).

Tickets prices at different routes/times could vary more than they do at the momment to encourage people to make more efficient use of services (making sure some are not too full and that others are not empty). A person could quickly use their computer/smart phone to compare different journey possibilities just before they travel (or well in advance) so that they know what fare they will pay.

I'd be surprised if many people would welcome any more complication in fares - note that not all travellers have easy access to computers/smartphones or want to use them to check every journey they do.

If someone has their Oyster card stollen from them they could have a note of its designation to report to TfL and the thief could then be caught on CCTV using it to pass though the barriers (it would be easy to track since the location of each Oyster card is already used in order to calculate the fare).

Oyster cards can already be cancelled when reported stolen and will generate an error when used - I suspect the main thing preventing more people being caught is lack of manpower to intervene immediately.

To summarise I simply think that we need to take advantage of the new technology available to create a better system and to not keep one that is still subject to the limitations of the past.

You seem to be going back to a much older system which worked fine when most people did not have a choice of a private car for journeys.

Most operators of public transport seem to realise that passengers appreciate being able to buy season tickets - they presumably belive they make more money overall doing this. London's is only unusual in allowing so many varied forms of transport on the one card.

My local bus company has a day ticket for £3.60 off-peak. The return fare to my nearest town is £2.80. If we have to pay a fare on each bus we caught I suspect my wife and I would drive, even if the individual fares dropped. I doubt dropping the fares would attract many new users. As it is, we can go for a day out without planning what we're doing, knowing that we've paid for our transport.
 
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Tibbs

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I am proposing scrapping travel cards all together and making the price of each journey independently priced (therefore your example is of no relevance). I am simply asking why when a person makes more than one journey each journey becomes cheaper even though the quantity of service that the person recieves is equal to that which multiple people would collectively recieve.

The simple issue is one of capacity. There is no way the Underground network could cope with the extra number of people who:

1) would travel on the tube rather than walk or get the bus if it was that much cheaper

2) the extra people they would need to travel to defray the cost of the discount.
 

JamesRowden

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You seem to be going back to a much older system which worked fine when most people did not have a choice of a private car for journeys.

I was not aware that smart ticketing or the internet existed in the 1960's. :D

Most operators of public transport seem to realise that passengers appreciate being able to buy season tickets - they presumably belive they make more money overall doing this. London's is only unusual in allowing so many varied forms of transport on the one card.

TfL is not a private company and so I do not see why they need to act as one (their function is not simply to maximise profits).

My local bus company has a day ticket for £3.60 off-peak. The return fare to my nearest town is £2.80. If we have to pay a fare on each bus we caught I suspect my wife and I would drive, even if the individual fares dropped. I doubt dropping the fares would attract many new users. As it is, we can go for a day out without planning what we're doing, knowing that we've paid for our transport.

That is a private company and so not relevant to my system.

If public transport return fares were reduced they might get to the point where not having a car and using the bus might save people a lot of money.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The simple issue is one of capacity. There is no way the Underground network could cope with the extra number of people who:

1) would travel on the tube rather than walk or get the bus if it was that much cheaper

2) the extra people they would need to travel to defray the cost of the discount.

More revenue could come from those who currently use travelcards.

The pricing could be tuned to regulate the quantity of people using each service.
 

maniacmartin

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The main constraint on TfL is capacity at peak times. Even if they could sell vastly more tickets at peak times, there is nowhere on the trains for these people to go.

As a Z1-2 travelcard holder, I can make as many journeys as I like at a similar cost to a peak day return every day of the working week. But the "extra" journeys that I make that are not my work commute are off-peak (evening and weekend journeys). At these times, there is spare capacity so they can afford to give me essentially free travel. If travelcard holders often made more peak journeys than two per day, then I can see the problem, but I suspect very very people do.

Obviously running off-peak services still costs money, and no doubt for some of the journeys I make by TfL transport I would have still taken and paid for if travelcards didn't exist, but the bottleneck isn't in the operational costs it seems
 

34D

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Has that other guy been drinking?

Anyway

The current thread about (ab)use of staff travel privileges got me thinking about a common practice among my co-workers (non-rail industry): sharing Travelcards. Often when someone in my office wants to go somewhere over the lunch hour, they will borrow a colleague's Oyster season Travelcard. (I don't do this.) This is seen as being nice and helping each other out, and people in my office seem to think it is ok because (1) two people aren't using it at once; (2) fares are too high and we are all being ripped off; (3) the tubes are running anyway so it isn't costing anyone anything; (4) the risk of getting caught is very low as regular adult Oyster Travelcards don't require a photo card.

I think it is a big deal, not only because it is against the Travelcard terms and conditions but also because it is morally wrong. What do others think? Am I making too much of this?

Does your company have an anonymous whistleblower phone line?
 

Deerfold

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I was not aware that smart ticketing or the internet existed in the 1960's. :D

Obviosuly not, but public transport operators who only offered singles did.

TfL is not a private company and so I do not see why they need to act as one (their function is not simply to maximise profits).

No, but it is to maximise use of the system - and reduce the need for subsidy. Subsidy is finite, and is not being increased in line with the increasd use of the tube.

That is a private company and so not relevant to my system.

But it shows that a private company who also wants to maximise usage and profits also see a season/day tickets as the way to do that.

If public transport return fares were reduced they might get to the point where not having a car and using the bus might save people a lot of money.

Only if someone else is paying a lot to subisdy the system even more than now.

More revenue could come from those who currently use travelcards.

Or they could drive - even if only for journeys in outer London. And public tranpsport provision would then drop or cost more per passenger.

The pricing could be tuned to regulate the quantity of people using each service.

Are you trying to price people off or onto the service? If you price them off, they can drive. I'm not a fan of that.
 
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