Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[millemille]

I am surprised that the Low Main Reservoir Protection system operated to initiate an Emergency brake application as a result of WSP activity. Low Main Reservoir protection is primarily intended to stop the train in the event that the compressed air supply is no longer available. I would expect the compressor/s to be able to provide sufficient air for WSP activity.

Not quite , the main reservoir low pressure protection kicks in to ensure that there is still enough pressure left to ensure that the train can come to a stand with full brake effort from the train's maximum speed. Prolonged WSP activity on all vehicles uses a lot of air, generally about as quickly as compressor/compressors can produce it AND then you've probably got a sander merrily blasting away consuming even more air.

The problem is worse on DMU's because the compressor output is generally engine rpm related and when a DMU is braking engine rpm is low so compressor output is low.

When we design sander systems it is one of the factors to consider; will the train's air system support prolonged WSP activity AND sander activity AND warning horn sounding (because it is not unreasonable to assume that a prolonged slide may result in the warning horn needing sounding) AND normal "hotel" air consumption like toilets being flushed*.....


*and before anyone pipes up, not the one for the driver as they sh*t themselves as they slide past red signals....

 

[43096]

There was an OTDR (located in the less damaged offside of the cab I thnk) and the ORR have already been able to access the information within it, hence the details in the preliminary report around when the driver of the SWR 159 started applying the brakes and the extent of wheelslide experienced

The driver interface is located in the offside of the cab. The actually recording unit may well be elsewhere - for obvious reasons the cab isn't necessarily the best place to have it, so it may be under seats in the saloons or wherever. For example, on HST power cars fitted with the Arrowvale OTMR it's in the clean air compartment and for those with the Q-Tron system it's in the van area of the power car.

 

[Darandio]

And this is the video of 59003 taking part in the tug of war. https://twitter.com/IanHardie9018/status/1456291780199071755

 

[Stigy]

Doing a running brake test on a 455 8 car many years back (at Kempton Park on a set of empties down road) the Train went into a slide… I left the brake to do it's work and the emergency brake came on because I lost a lot of main res...

Question though…. How do the 159's stuck London side refuel? Never really struck me before. Someone did suggest Fratton, but I'm not so sure…haven't been down there for nearly 15 years… Drivers have asked me about Clapham and Barton Mill, but I said no… Load of 159's in Clapham Yard yesterday and 2 x158 in the bay at Southampton… They are scattered about here and there, stranded away from their Home Depot.

Certainly a few are being fuelled at Fratton.

 

[northernbelle]

The hazards aren’t linked to anything and need to be switched on manually.

Indeed. The hazards on both the GWR 158 and SWR 159 were switched on at the rear in the immediate aftermath of the collision.

Cheers - cancel the last then. I'm surprised in a way as to me at least, it makes some degree of sense to link the two together.

I see what you mean, although it might be problematic in the case of an onboard lighting failure caused by no engine and low batteries. Sets are known to run in public service in that condition with only the emergency lighting operable and you wouldn't want the hazard lights coming on automatically when in normal service.

 

[HBath]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation as I'm not much of a train person but I was a passenger in the rear carriage of the GWR and I'm trying to make sense of what happened so stumbled on this forum. It's very hard to find anywhere discussing it factually. Certain things that are being announced are not lining up with my experience and I don't know if it's just because of the matter being a work in progress or if they're not being honest for some reason. Either way, even just reading a few of the pages has made things make more sense to me so for that alone - thanks!

Did you have any specific questions for me or would you like me to just run through what happened as I remember it?

A few facts to start:
I was in the middle of the rear carriage sat to the left, facing away from the direction of travel in the window seat. It was super dark so couldn't see what was happening outside but we were thrown about so much that I assumed we were rolling down a grass verge. I'd estimate there were eight people in my carriage including the three week old baby that the news keeps mentioning. There was a man in a high vis orange jacket at the very rear who was thankfully very calm, knew what to do and went straight into the rear cabin thing to alert the various services, kept us somewhat updated and told us to stay put (even when we started smelling petrol).

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage, there was no horn sounding (I presume I would have heard it?) from the other train and we were in motion at the time.

I'm physically mostly fine and mentally have dealt with it and can see you're all just trying to work out the facts of it all. I have some specific timing of things as I was keeping my mum updated on matters, if that is of interest.

Do ask away and please don't worry about being delicate!

 

[RPI]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation as I'm not much of a train person but I was a passenger in the rear carriage of the GWR and I'm trying to make sense of what happened so stumbled on this forum. It's very hard to find anywhere discussing it factually. Certain things that are being announced are not lining up with my experience and I don't know if it's just because of the matter being a work in progress or if they're not being honest for some reason. Either way, even just reading a few of the pages has made things make more sense to me so for that alone - thanks!

Did you have any specific questions for me or would you like me to just run through what happened as I remember it?

A few facts to start:
I was in the middle of the rear carriage sat to the left, facing away from the direction of travel in the window seat. It was super dark so couldn't see what was happening outside but we were thrown about so much that I assumed we were rolling down a grass verge. I'd estimate there were eight people in my carriage including the three week old baby that the news keeps mentioning. There was a man in a high vis orange jacket at the very rear who was thankfully very calm, knew what to do and went straight into the rear cabin thing to alert the various services, kept us somewhat updated and told us to stay put (even when we started smelling petrol).

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage, there was no horn sounding (I presume I would have heard it?) from the other train and we were in motion at the time.

I'm physically mostly fine and mentally have dealt with it and can see you're all just trying to work out the facts of it all. I have some specific timing of things as I was keeping my mum updated on matters, if that is of interest.

Do ask away and please don't worry about being delicate!

Firstly, I'm glad to hear you're mostly ok, at least physically and welcome to the forum.

I think with the 92 passengers mentioned more would have been on the other service from Waterloo (though that is an assumption but those trains can be relatively busy)

I'm sure others will be along to welcome you to the forum too.

 

[Stigy]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation as I'm not much of a train person but I was a passenger in the rear carriage of the GWR and I'm trying to make sense of what happened so stumbled on this forum. It's very hard to find anywhere discussing it factually. Certain things that are being announced are not lining up with my experience and I don't know if it's just because of the matter being a work in progress or if they're not being honest for some reason. Either way, even just reading a few of the pages has made things make more sense to me so for that alone - thanks!

Did you have any specific questions for me or would you like me to just run through what happened as I remember it?

A few facts to start:
I was in the middle of the rear carriage sat to the left, facing away from the direction of travel in the window seat. It was super dark so couldn't see what was happening outside but we were thrown about so much that I assumed we were rolling down a grass verge. I'd estimate there were eight people in my carriage including the three week old baby that the news keeps mentioning. There was a man in a high vis orange jacket at the very rear who was thankfully very calm, knew what to do and went straight into the rear cabin thing to alert the various services, kept us somewhat updated and told us to stay put (even when we started smelling petrol).

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage, there was no horn sounding (I presume I would have heard it?) from the other train and we were in motion at the time.

I'm physically mostly fine and mentally have dealt with it and can see you're all just trying to work out the facts of it all. I have some specific timing of things as I was keeping my mum updated on matters, if that is of interest.

Do ask away and please don't worry about being delicate!

Hi there and welcome, glad you’re okay, although naturally there will be some psychological aspects to deal with (please do reach out to someone if you need to). I believe the person in the rear was a GWR driver (on duty but “passing” to Salisbury to pick up another train?). It was that or the guard, but both acted impeccably I’ve heard.

 

[RPI]

Hi there, glad you’re okay, although naturally there will be some psychological aspects to deal with (please do reach out to someone if you need to). I believe the person in the rear was a GWR driver (on duty but “passing” to Salisbury to pick up another train?). It was that or the guard.

The brief we had from Mark Hopwood at work suggested there were three members of staff on the trains so as you say probably a driver travelling

 

[Stigy]

The brief we had from Mark Hopwood at work suggested there were three members of staff on the trains so as you say probably a driver travelling

Ah okay, didn’t realise that.

 

[rebmcr]

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage

What makes you say this? The rear carriage of the GWR train definitely came off the rails but remained upright.

 

[RPI]

Ah okay, didn’t realise that.

Interesting that we've seen nothing in the media about the GWR staff?

 

[Stigy]

Interesting that we've seen nothing in the media about the GWR staff?

There was something in local media about the Guard I believe….

 

[RPI]

There was something in local media about the Guard I believe….

I saw something about the SWR guard? In the daily mail of all places and it was quite rightly positive (last thing you'd expect from the DM!)

 

[HBath]

What makes you say this? The rear carriage of the GWR train definitely came off the rails but remained upright.

Apologies, I mean there was no derailment prior to to the collision. I've seem some (supposedly reputable) places reporting this still as a possibility even though it was officially refuted. Thought I'd just clarify in case anyone was still speculating.

I did contact GWR commending the guy at the rear, but considering they responded with a standard response saying they hope my next journey is as satisfactory as this one I'm not convinced they actually read the email...

 

[RPI]

Apologies, I mean there was no derailment prior to to the collision. I've seem some (supposedly reputable) places reporting this still as a possibility even though it was officially refuted. Thought I'd just clarify in case anyone was still speculating.

I did contact GWR commending the guy at the rear, but considering they responded with a standard response saying they hope my next journey is as satisfactory as this one I'm not convinced they actually read the email...

Its probably a standard reply that will be followed up in due course, I expect they're quite busy at the moment.

 

[Bikeman78]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation as I'm not much of a train person but I was a passenger in the rear carriage of the GWR and I'm trying to make sense of what happened so stumbled on this forum. It's very hard to find anywhere discussing it factually. Certain things that are being announced are not lining up with my experience and I don't know if it's just because of the matter being a work in progress or if they're not being honest for some reason. Either way, even just reading a few of the pages has made things make more sense to me so for that alone - thanks!

Did you have any specific questions for me or would you like me to just run through what happened as I remember it?

A few facts to start:
I was in the middle of the rear carriage sat to the left, facing away from the direction of travel in the window seat. It was super dark so couldn't see what was happening outside but we were thrown about so much that I assumed we were rolling down a grass verge. I'd estimate there were eight people in my carriage including the three week old baby that the news keeps mentioning. There was a man in a high vis orange jacket at the very rear who was thankfully very calm, knew what to do and went straight into the rear cabin thing to alert the various services, kept us somewhat updated and told us to stay put (even when we started smelling petrol).

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage, there was no horn sounding (I presume I would have heard it?) from the other train and we were in motion at the time.

I'm physically mostly fine and mentally have dealt with it and can see you're all just trying to work out the facts of it all. I have some specific timing of things as I was keeping my mum updated on matters, if that is of interest.

Do ask away and please don't worry about being delicate!

Wow. Glad you're okay. How was the baby? Out of curiosity, how did you get off the train? How do you feel about travelling on a train again in the future?

 

[rebmcr]

Apologies, I mean there was no derailment prior to to the collision. I've seem some (supposedly reputable) places reporting this still as a possibility even though it was officially refuted. Thought I'd just clarify in case anyone was still speculating.

Indeed you are correct. It's unfortunate that the news still has the outdated reports from before the facts were established, but at least the official investigators & the police have released statements confirming what you know.

 

[thedbdiboy]

One thing I’m curious about is why does it now take so long to find investigate these accidents and to remove vehicles, or is it a myth that lines reopened a lot quicker in BR days?

They were in general reopened much more quickly - for example at the Harrow & Wealdstone accident (8 October 1952, 3-train collision, 112 deaths and a huge mountain of wreckage) closed all six lines; the suburban electric line reopened next day; the slow lines on 11 October and the fast lines on 12 October. Google the accident to see pictures of the wreckage. It seems scarcely credible today!

Lines probably did open a lot quicker in BR days, but a lot has happened since then in terms of H&S (and rail accidents more specifically).

The main issue now is the preservation of the scene not just for accident investigation but also initially to allow evidence gathering in case there is a prosecution. Paddington was shut for three weeks after the 1999 accident.

Investigations are much more thorough these days.

Rail accident investigations have been very thorough for many decades. There is generally much more detailed evidence available now from data recorders, CCTV etc but take a look at the Railways Archive repository of accident reports to see how thorough they have been for many years. For example, here's the link to the report on a head-on collision at Hull Paragon in 1927 caused by two signallers simultaneously setting up routes that compromised the interlocking https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Hull1927.pdf

 

[millemille]

Apologies, I mean there was no derailment prior to to the collision. I've seem some (supposedly reputable) places reporting this still as a possibility even though it was officially refuted. Thought I'd just clarify in case anyone was still speculating.

I did contact GWR commending the guy at the rear, but considering they responded with a standard response saying they hope my next journey is as satisfactory as this one I'm not convinced they actually read the email...

Firstly, welcome to the forum and, as other have said, very glad that you are fit and well and able to talk about your experience.

With regards to your question about the reported derailment, or not, of the GWR train.

Accidents like this often suffer from confused communication and miscommunication in the early stages as lots of information starts flooding in from the scene and it can take a while to get things in order and get the facts straight. This doesn't imply any incompetence or malice or ill will, it is simply that with emergency calls from staff and members of the public and witnesses and then the first responders on site and human nature being what it is confusion arises. In this case the initial reports were that the GWR train had hit an object and derailed and this had damaged the signalling system, allowing the SWR train to collide with the GWR train.

As you knew before us, this isn't true and everyone who should know does know now.

I would like to offer some advice, if I may, and that is that you have been through a very traumatic experience and at some time in the future - could be tomorrow or could be years in the future - this could cause you mental anguish. PTSD basically. Do not be afraid to seek help with this, whether from your GP or privately through counselling or any of the other support charities that exist.

I speak from personal experience, I was involved in the aftermath of a rail crash and it took 12 years for the trauma to emerge and it knocked me for six. But I got help from my GP and counselling privately and was back to my normal, annoying, self in a matter of weeks.

 

[reddragon]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation as I'm not much of a train person but I was a passenger in the rear carriage of the GWR and I'm trying to make sense of what happened so stumbled on this forum. It's very hard to find anywhere discussing it factually. Certain things that are being announced are not lining up with my experience and I don't know if it's just because of the matter being a work in progress or if they're not being honest for some reason. Either way, even just reading a few of the pages has made things make more sense to me so for that alone - thanks!

Did you have any specific questions for me or would you like me to just run through what happened as I remember it?

A few facts to start:
I was in the middle of the rear carriage sat to the left, facing away from the direction of travel in the window seat. It was super dark so couldn't see what was happening outside but we were thrown about so much that I assumed we were rolling down a grass verge. I'd estimate there were eight people in my carriage including the three week old baby that the news keeps mentioning. There was a man in a high vis orange jacket at the very rear who was thankfully very calm, knew what to do and went straight into the rear cabin thing to alert the various services, kept us somewhat updated and told us to stay put (even when we started smelling petrol).

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

I'm 100% certain there was no derailing of our carriage, there was no horn sounding (I presume I would have heard it?) from the other train and we were in motion at the time.

I'm physically mostly fine and mentally have dealt with it and can see you're all just trying to work out the facts of it all. I have some specific timing of things as I was keeping my mum updated on matters, if that is of interest.

Do ask away and please don't worry about being delicate!

Thank you for joining the forum

Feel free to ask any questions as I am sure someone on here answer in detail for you and help you.

 

[HBath]

Wow. Glad you're okay. How was the baby? Out of curiosity, how did you get off the train? How do you feel about travelling on a train again in the future?

Baby was cry constantly (understandable) as I think it's head hit against the wall but generally okay I think, he wasn't taken to the hospital so presume it wasn't anything major. Parents were first timers as well so you can appreciate how terrified they were at the time.

There was a door at the back of our carriage which we came out of which I assume the off duty driver must have opened (one girl was feeling like she might be sick so sounds like a good idea). We waited until the fire brigade arrived (about twenty minutes later) and they took us down one by one down a ladder and led us along until we got to London Road. The SWR rear carriage was being emptied at the same time.

Haven't been on a train yet, my mum (bless her, that was a long night for her!) will be dropping me off at Bradford on Avon so I can do a trail train back to Bath (it's a ten minute journey I've done a thousand times). I expect I'll have a panic attack but it won't be my first one so I know what to expect and how to handle it. Might try to get on the same carriage as the conductor if I see one as the GWR was so great I think that might be reassuring.

I really can't praise the GWR driver with us or the emergency service staff enough, the calmness of it all made such a difference. Also helped that no one died either, I think that would have made it much more traumatic.

Firstly, welcome to the forum and, as other have said, very glad that you are fit and well and able to talk about your experience.

With regards to your question about the reported derailment, or not, of the GWR train.

Accidents like this often suffer from confused communication and miscommunication in the early stages as lots of information starts flooding in from the scene and it can take a while to get things in order and get the facts straight. This doesn't imply any incompetence or malice or ill will, it is simply that with emergency calls from staff and members of the public and witnesses and then the first responders on site and human nature being what it is confusion arises. In this case the initial reports were that the GWR train had hit an object and derailed and this had damaged the signalling system, allowing the SWR train to collide with the GWR train.

As you knew before us, this isn't true and everyone who should know does know now.

I would like to offer some advice, if I may, and that is that you have been through a very traumatic experience and at some time in the future - could be tomorrow or could be years in the future - this could cause you mental anguish. PTSD basically. Do not be afraid to seek help with this, whether from your GP or privately through counselling or any of the other support charities that exist.

I speak from personal experience, I was involved in the aftermath of a rail crash and it took 12 years for the trauma to emerge and it knocked me for six. But I got help from my GP and counselling privately and was back to my normal, annoying, self in a matter of weeks.

Thanks, I feel quite defensive of both trains and drivers so when people point fingers it gets my goat!

Thank you for the comment regarding the trauma, there is zero guidance on what to expect after experiencing a train crash but I'm not surprised to hear it. My job has been really wonderful about it luckily which helps. I'm glad you're okay now!

 

[reddragon]

Baby was cry constantly (understandable) as I think it's head hit against the wall but generally okay I think, he wasn't taken to the hospital so presume it wasn't anything major. Parents were first timers as well so you can appreciate how terrified they were at the time.

There was a door at the back of our carriage which we came out of which I assume the off duty driver must have opened (one girl was feeling like she might be sick so sounds like a good idea). We waited until the fire brigade arrived (about twenty minutes later) and they took us down one by one down a ladder and led us along until we got to London Road. The SWR rear carriage was being emptied at the same time.

Haven't been on a train yet, my mum (bless her, that was a long night for her!) will be dropping me off at Bradford on Avon so I can do a trail train back to Bath (it's a ten minute journey I've done a thousand times). I expect I'll have a panic attack but it won't be my first one so I know what to expect and how to handle it. Might try to get on the same carriage as the conductor if I see one as the GWR was so great I think that might be reassuring.

I really can't praise the GWR driver with us or the emergency service staff enough, the calmness of it all made such a difference. Also helped that no one died either, I think that would have made it much more traumatic.

One thing I have learnt over the years is that however bad the press or public is at complaining about train services, the staff are the most professional, helpful & wonderful people that you will ever meet however tired & grumpy they might feel.

 

[dciuk]

I got on at Romsey onto the second carriage, first carriage clearly had no rows clear, second carriage had one (not particular desirable) so I went through the third carriage (also only had one row free) and ended up in the rear. This is all socially distanced at all, but you can see why I'm very suspicious of the 93 total passengers announcement for both trains.

From your desciption it sounds like most of these 93 passengers were on the same train as you. I would have expected the train from Waterloo to have been reasonably busy as it was originally booked as 9 carriages as far as Salisbury, although from experiance most people board at Waterloo and Clapham and it then starts to empty out as it gets closer to Salisbury. I think it was reported that it had originally been cancelled and was then re-instated at the last minute, so perhaps a lot that were intending to travel had already changed their plans and were not still at the station when it was re-instated therefore that might explain a lighter than expected load on that service. Is it possible some passengers may have left the scene without being counted?

 

[swt_passenger]

If the 158 was still moving at the time of the impact and the 159 hit the side of the 158 (although I am not sure that we have official confirmation of either of these) would a guard in the rear cab even have seen the 159 before impact? Perhaps they would have from the side window, but I am not sure how visable the Andover line would have been from that location.

I’d say RAIB’s report yesterday morning had already confirmed both trains were moving. But we’ve also just had a report from a passenger on the GWR confirming that they were.

 

[Crossover]

From your desciption it sounds like most of these 93 passengers were on the same train as you. I would have expected the train from Waterloo to have been reasonably busy as it was originally booked as 9 carriages as far as Salisbury, although from experiance most people board at Waterloo and Clapham and it then starts to empty out as it gets closer to Salisbury. I think it was reported that it had originally been cancelled and was then re-instated at the last minute, so perhaps a lot that were intending to travel had already changed their plans and were not still at the station when it was re-instated therefore that might explain a lighter than expected load on that service. Is it possible some passengers may have left the scene without being counted?

Although not necessarily accurate, RTT showed it had run as a 3 car from Waterloo, having been there for a good hour or so after working the service before it. Whether this was the actual case or not, I don’t know, but if so, quart into a pint pot springs to mind!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Although not necessarily accurate, RTT showed it had run as a 3 car from Waterloo, having been there for a good hour or so after working the service before it. Whether this was the actual case or not, I don’t know, but if so, quart into a pint pot springs to mind!

Yes it was, someone I follow on Twitter posted a picture at around 1700 on Sunday of 159102 at the buffer stops at Waterloo shortly before it worked 1L53, it was definitely just a three car.

 

[Arch9enius]

I think someone did post an ECS move on RTT taking units to Fratton to refuel. I guess it's similar to GWR with having units stranded away from their home depot (the ones running Romsey - Portsmouth shuttles).

Are 159s cleared to run via Pewsey (assuming they are piloted by a freight driver/GWR driver) as a last resort to get back to base? (Would suggest via Weymouth but that line is closed at the moment for engineering works)

I rode a 159 from Salisbury to Yeovil, backwards to Pen Mill, down to Weymouth, Dorchester and thence to Corfe on the swanage Railway a few years ago on a summer saturday service. Incidentally, does anyone know if one of those RHT or sandite trains had been through that area recently? Also could you explain what they do for certain non-industry tyes who know nuffing.

 

[theageofthetra]

Imagine you are a passenger on a 158/9 and you see the driver exit the cab (which is into the vestibule) whilst the train is moving and walk into the passenger cabin!

What is the driver then supposed to do which won't instill instant panic in dozens of people in a confined space?

Drivers or managers passing in a cab can do that. It's not that unusual.

 

[Stigy]

Drivers or managers passing in a cab can do that. It's not that unusual.

Also, if they’re ordinarily just exiting the cab, their demeanour will be somewhat normal as opposed to exiting in a hurry.