Combination of tickets from London to Peterborough

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tannedfrog

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I observed this on a Saturday on an East Coast service London to Peterborough.

The passengers had one day Travelcard, bz6 to Huntingdon NSE day return Any Permitted, and Huntingdon to Peterborough day return.

Was the guard correct to reject this?

Interestingly the day return Hadley Wood to Peterborough is FCC only in contrast with the equivalent bz6 ticket which is Any Permitted
 
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Bungle73

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Doesn't the train have to actually stop at the station where the tickets cross over? EC don't stop at Huntingdon. Case closed.
 

Brucey

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Definitely not valid as the Hungtindon to Peterborough ticket is neither a season, zonal or leisure pass.
 

yorkie

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A One Day Travelcard? No, not valid. If it had been a Travelcard Season then it would have been valid.
 

Brucey

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Isn't the one day Travelcard a zonal ticket? Presumably it was valid Zones 1-6
For a zonal ticket to be valid in this case, all the tickets need to be zonal.

For a season ticket to be valid, only one ticket needs to be a season. It doesn't matter what the rest are (but you'll need to be prepared to argue...)
 

yorkie

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Isn't the one day Travelcard a zonal ticket? Presumably it was valid Zones 1-6
Yes, so if the train called at Huntingdon it would have been fine. But it didn't. I've been on an EC train that called there, but it is quite rare.
 

IanD

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Yes, so if the train called at Huntingdon it would have been fine. But it didn't. I've been on an EC train that called there, but it is quite rare.
Ah - I was typing my response when you posted your previous one or I wouldn't have asked! I was getting parts a and c of clause 19 mixed up, I thought the zonal bit was in part c.
 

tannedfrog

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Thanks. Sorry I missed out the important piece of information that the train did not stop between London and Peterborough

I guess the only way these people could have made use of their Network Railcard on this route was by going on FCC

They were arguing that Any Permitted did not restrict them to FCC but missing the point about the train needin to stop at splitting points
 

Brucey

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What was the correct remedy here? Excess or whole new ticket?
Technically, a London Terminals to next station stop after Huntingdon ticket, anytime without any discounts.

In practice, many staff will offer a BZ6 to next station stop after Huntingdon ticket.
 

RJ

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I observed this on a Saturday on an East Coast service London to Peterborough.

The passengers had one day Travelcard, bz6 to Huntingdon NSE day return Any Permitted, and Huntingdon to Peterborough day return.

Was the guard correct to reject this?

Interestingly the day return Hadley Wood to Peterborough is FCC only in contrast with the equivalent bz6 ticket which is Any Permitted
Yes he was correct to reject them, the passenger had no valid tickets for that service so needed to buy a single from London to Peterborough.

A ticket to travel any time from London to Peterborough and back need never cost any more than £42ish without any railcards, if you do your homework!

 

hairyhandedfool

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As noted by others, if one (and only one) of the tickets was a season ticket (as defined by the NRCoC), or if the train had stopped at Huntingdon, then they would have been fine.

The Boundary Zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket is an extension to the Travelcard and is not zonal, so the other part of condition 19 is not satisfied (even if the Huntingdon-Peterborough ticket was zonal)

In this instance the correct thing for the guard to do would be to charge the fare for the part of the journey not covered by the tickets (London to Peterborough in this case).
 
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MikeWh

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The Boundary Zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket is an extension to the Travelcard and is not zonal, so the other part of condition 19 is not satisfied (even if the Huntingdon-Peterborough ticket was zonal)
I'm not sure I quite agree here. The boundary zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket most definitely is zonal. The whole point of BZx tickets is to match up with travelcards so that they are both zonal. Had the combination just been a travelcard and a BZx to Peterborough then it would have been valid. The problem was the further split at Huntingdon.

I'm not sure whether I want to contemplate a three way split where all three tickets are zonal because the word 'both' usually only applies to two. I think a Z1-4 ticket plus a zone 5-6 ticket plus a BZ6 to Peterbourough ought to be valid, even if neither or both travelcards are seasons, but I'm not sure.
 

yorkie

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If there was such a thing as a BZ6-Peterborough Rte Any Permitted ticket, then clearly the BZ6-Huntingdon should be excessed to that. Normally that would be the case! However that ticket does not exist, therefore that cannot be done.

Therefore, the correct action would surely be to do one of two things:
1) excess the BZ6-Huntingdon ticket (£11.55) into a London Terminals - Peterborough Ticket (£94.00) total £82.45 (which allows the customer to return on non-stop East Coast trains); or
2) Charge for a new single ticket (£47.00) but the customer would have to take FCC on the return leg.

An excess should be charged, unless a new ticket is cheaper. If the customer is happy to take FCC on the return, a new ticket is cheaper in this case.
 

Brucey

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An excess should be charged, unless a new ticket is cheaper.
Are you sure? The NRCoC say that the Condition 2 or 4 would apply, therefore a brand new ticket should be sold at the full anytime price (as EC obviously don't have a PF policy and Kings Cross has ticket issuing facilities).
 

amcluesent

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So I'm doing KGX-EDB on standard AP, not stopping at PBO. I do have a KGX-PBO FC season, so was planning on sitting in FC to get the sarnies, then moving as we pass PBO. This is allowed I believe?
 

yorkie

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Are you sure? The NRCoC say that the Condition 2 or 4 would apply, therefore a brand new ticket should be sold at the full anytime price (as EC obviously don't have a PF policy and Kings Cross has ticket issuing facilities).
Yes, NRCoC doesn't actually say that a new ticket will be sold and is silent on the matter (answer is: it depends)

The EC revenue manual says, under 'C7.1.8. Over-Riding – Travel to a destination beyond that on the ticket', where there is 'Opportunity to buy before boarding' that a full Single or Return should be sold however if cheaper the difference between the fare paid and the full fare for the throughout journey can be charged.

If there was no opportunity to buy before boarding, then it is to the appropriate fare.

In this case, the full fare is much more expensive than the appropriate fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So I'm doing KGX-EDB on standard AP, not stopping at PBO. I do have a KGX-PBO FC season, so was planning on sitting in FC to get the sarnies, then moving as we pass PBO. This is allowed I believe?
This is a completely separate question. The abbreviation 'AP' is best avoided (to avoid confusion) however in this case I can figure out you refer to a ticket of the type Advance.

I do not think that the rules are clear-cut and an argument could probably be made either way (though I'd be inclined to say that it should be allowed - though you'd forfeit your right to a seat), and my advice would be to approach the guard before departure asking for permission to do this. I wouldn't like to say what the contractual/legal position would be though!
 
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PTF62

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The Boundary Zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket is an extension to the Travelcard and is not zonal, so the other part of condition 19 is not satisfied (even if the Huntingdon-Peterborough ticket was zonal
For what 'zone' is a Boundary Zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket valid?
You could make an argument that the Boundary Zone 6 to Huntingdon ticket isn't a ticket in its own right, since it can't be used without the Travelcard, and therefore has become part of the Travelcard. But as you said, that doesn't resolve the Huntingdon problem.
 

hairyhandedfool

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....An excess should be charged, unless a new ticket is cheaper. If the customer is happy to take FCC on the return, a new ticket is cheaper in this case.
Incorrect.

NRCoC Condition 19 said:
....If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire
journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the
tickets was valid....
NRCoC Condition 2 said:
....If you travel in a train:

(a) without a ticket; or

(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty
Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey....
The full single or return fare is the correct course of action.

....and therefore has become part of the Travelcard....
Well, no, because the Boundary Zone fare is a single or return extension and is therefore valid for a single or return journey in the same way as an 'out-boundary' Travelcard.

....But as you said, that doesn't resolve the Huntingdon problem....
Indeed.

....NRCoC doesn't actually say that a new ticket will be sold and is silent on the matter (answer is: it depends)....
Incorrect, see condition 19 and either condition 2 or 4 (as appropriate).

....The EC revenue manual says, under 'C7.1.8. Over-Riding – Travel to a destination beyond that on the ticket', where there is 'Opportunity to buy before boarding' that a full Single or Return should be sold however if cheaper the difference between the fare paid and the full fare for the throughout journey can be charged....
This is not a case of over-riding, the excess fares rules do not apply here.

So I'm doing KGX-EDB on standard AP, not stopping at PBO. I do have a KGX-PBO FC season, so was planning on sitting in FC to get the sarnies, then moving as we pass PBO. This is allowed I believe?
It could be argued that you are starting short on the Advance, which is prohibited and could leave you with a hefty bill to pay. If you were allowed to do it, you would have to be out of first class BEFORE Peterborough.
 
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yorkie

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The rules on over-riding state that the cheapest of the following options should be charged:

- An excess; or
- A new ticket to cover the part(s) not covered by the ticket

If there was opportunity to buy before boarding, then it is to the full fare. If there wasn't it's to the cheapest fare.
 

bb21

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Incorrect, see condition 19 and either condition 2 or 4 (as appropriate).
Non-compliance with Condition 19 means we are redirected to Conditions 2 and 4. Condition 4 is irrelevant for travel on East Coast services.

Unfortunately Condition 2 is not clear whether "liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare" takes into account the fare already paid.

In the absence of such clarification, it is reasonable for us to then refer to internal documents such as EC's revenue manual which, as quoted by yorkie in an earlier post, instructs its staff to charge an excess to the full fare, in the circumstance described.

This is not a case of over-riding, the excess fares rules do not apply here.
How is travelling beyond the destination on the ticket not over-riding? If it is not over-riding on the Boundary Zone ticket because it is not a ticket in its own right (as suggested by some people), the passenger is surely over-riding on the Huntingdon - Peterborough ticket, which means that at least the price they paid for that ticket should be taken into account.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Non-compliance with Condition 19 means we are redirected to Conditions 2 and 4. Condition 4 is irrelevant for travel on East Coast services....
True.

....Unfortunately Condition 2 is not clear whether "liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare" takes into account the fare already paid....
NRCoC Condition 19 said:
....If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train
without a ticket
....
If you board without a ticket you have not paid a fare.

....How is travelling beyond the destination on the ticket not over-riding?....
So everyone using condition 19 is over-riding on the first ticket?

....If it is not over-riding on the Boundary Zone ticket because it is not a ticket in its own right (as suggested by some people), the passenger is surely over-riding on the Huntingdon - Peterborough ticket, which means that at least the price they paid for that ticket should be taken into account.
Over-riding is travelling beyond the destination of the ticket, they could not be excessed for travelling beyond Peterborough if they have not done so.
 

yorkie

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This is incredible

Are you telling me that if 2 people on the same train, both with Peterborough-Huntingdon SDS tickets (to keep it simple), both on a non-stop train to King's Cross, but one is in possession of additional tickets, the one that has no additional tickets is charged an excess (taking into account the fare paid), and the other, who does have additional tickets is charged more for a brand new ticket (with no taking into account the fare(s) paid)?

If so that's the most bizarre thing I've ever heard
 

Flamingo

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My understanding by the letter of the law (NRCoC) is that if split tickets (and all seasons or all "ordinary", and no zonal tickets in the mix yada yada yada) then the train has to stop at that station, or a new anytime ticket is due from the last stop to the next stop.

If the passenger is "gripped" (or declares them self) before the train leaves the last stop before the split, then an over-distance excess to the next stop (or new ticket from the "split" to the next stop if split season tickets or this is cheaper than the excess) will be appropriate.

A new ticket from A to C is not appropriate unless there are no stops between A and C.
 
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