Complaints about Revenue Protection behaviour

[AdamWW]

Unnecessary pedantry. To the untrained eye, they are one and the same, and that's OK.

Not to mention the fact that in popular usage the term QR code is used for any similar 3-d bar code.

Popular usage often deviates from technical usage.

I hope that people complaining about this never talk about pavements when they mean footways.

 

[The_Train]

There's absolutely no way, I'm handing my very expensive phone over to someone I don't know. How would I know that I'm not actually faced by a group of criminals posing as RPI to get hold of people's phones?

Equally, I wouldn't hand over a paper ticket. Once you hand something over that proves you've done something correctly and legally, you lose all control of the situation. Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

What we, as customers of the railway, have to do is provide proof that we are traveling with a valid ticket and providing this proof can be done without handing the ticket (or phone) over to anybody

 

[island]

Equally, I wouldn't hand over a paper ticket.

Then you’d be committing a criminal offence.

What we, as customers of the railway, have to do is provide proof that we are traveling with a valid ticket and providing this proof can be done without handing the ticket (or phone) over to anybody

That is incorrect. If asked to do so by an authorised person, you are obliged by law to “hand over” or “deliver up” your ticket. The wording of the law is clear and the obligation is not merely to “show” or “present” a ticket or “provide proof”. Failing to do is a criminal offence. See section 5 (1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and sections 18 (2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws.

Whilst there can be some reasonable debate about what this requires as respects a mobile device, there can be no question about the obligations as respects a paper ticket.

 

[The_Train]

Then you’d be committing a criminal offence.

That is incorrect. If asked to do so by an authorised person, you are obliged by law to “hand over” or “deliver up” your ticket. The wording of the law is clear and the obligation is not merely to “show” or “present” a ticket or “provide proof”. Failing to do is a criminal offence. See section 5 (1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 and sections 18 (2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws.

Whilst there can be some reasonable debate about what this requires as respects a mobile device, there can be no question about the obligations as respects a paper ticket.

As I've said, I always show, I never hand over. Not caused me any issues yet, but I'll always keep something that proves I've done something correctly in my possession. I'd much rather be in court with proof I've done something correctly rather than in court with no proof because some RPI in a bad mood (or up for a bonus for finding enough people without tickets) has decided they want to cause me issues by stealing my ticket!

I should add that on board a train, I'll happily hand a ticket to a TM if they want a closer look but I wouldn't trust an RPI in any way!

 

[island]

I'd much rather be in court with proof I've done something correctly rather than in court with no proof because some RPI in a bad mood (or up for a bonus for finding enough people without tickets) has decided they want to cause me issues by stealing my ticket!

I think you’re trying to solve a nonexistent problem in terms of RPIs allegedly stealing tickets, but you do you.

 

[AdamWW]

I think you’re trying to solve a nonexistent problem in terms of RPIs allegedly stealing tickets, but you do you.

Probably.

Though I was somewhat nervous once when a guard who incorrectly decided my ticket wasn't valid went off down the train to discuss the matter with another member of staff, taking my ticket with them. If they had failed to come back with it I would have been in a somewhat awkward position.

 

[RPI]

As I've said, I always show, I never hand over. Not caused me any issues yet, but I'll always keep something that proves I've done something correctly in my possession. I'd much rather be in court with proof I've done something correctly rather than in court with no proof because some RPI in a bad mood (or up for a bonus for finding enough people without tickets) has decided they want to cause me issues by stealing my ticket!

I should add that on board a train, I'll happily hand a ticket to a TM if they want a closer look but I wouldn't trust an RPI in any way!

Your ticket has to be handed over for validation and where appropriate, clipping/stamping, it is very much the norm in most places for tickets to be stamped or marked.

 

[SussexSeagull]

If I refuse to show an inspector a paper ticket do they get to search me to try and find the ticket or get ID such as a driving license?

Don't get me wrong, if I am unable to present a valid ticket when asked or refuse to produce ID then I should be put through the process and my refusal to comply recorded, but if an inspector wishes to take matters further they should involve the BTP.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If I refuse to show an inspector a paper ticket do they get to search me to try and find the ticket or get ID such as a driving license?

Don't get me wrong, if I am unable to present a valid ticket when asked or refuse to produce ID then I should be put through the process and my refusal to comply recorded, but if an inspector wishes to take matters further they should involve the BTP.

Refusing to show an inspector a ticket is an offence, regardless of whether you have one. There is therefore no need for them to search you to see if you have a valid one.

If you are uncooperative enough that BTP need to be involved then I would imagine your chances of getting an out of court settlement would be fairly low, and you would be taken to court for both the ticketing offence and failure to give your name and address.

 

[87electric]

Your ticket has to be handed over for validation and where appropriate, clipping/stamping, it is very much the norm in most places for tickets to be stamped or marked.

Quite, ticket clipping/stamping is normal procedure so I don’t understand the refusal to do so.
The ticket is the property of the railway and is officially stated as such.

 

[Hadders]

I should add that on board a train, I'll happily hand a ticket to a TM if they want a closer look but I wouldn't trust an RPI in any way!

What about an RPI on board the train?

 

[transportphoto]

Don't get me wrong, if I am unable to present a valid ticket when asked or refuse to produce ID then I should be put through the process and my refusal to comply recorded, but if an inspector wishes to take matters further they should involve the BTP.

Would you be willing to accept the criminal convictions for both not showing a valid ticket, and not giving your details?

 

[island]

The ticket is the property of the railway and is officially stated as such.

No it isn't; this used to be the case but changed several years ago.

 

[The_Train]

I think you’re trying to solve a nonexistent problem in terms of RPIs allegedly stealing tickets, but you do you.

It's the same in all walks of life. If you had a ticket (which didn't have your name on it) to a football match and someone stood outside the ground, away from the turnstile, wearing a hi-viz jacket asked you to hand over your ticket, would you hand it over?

I'm sure that the vast majority of RPI's are fine but unfortunately for that job role, there are a few who do it for the power trip and enjoying making people feel small. At the end of the day, RPI's are there for Revenue Protection and that means ensuring people are travelling with a valid ticket. If I can prove this by SHOWING them my ticket, I see no reason why it would need to go any further and that is exactly what my experience has been - I've never experienced a RPI demanding that I hand over my ticket and the reason I have never experienced it is because all the RPI's I have come across have the sense to see that me showing them a valid ticket is all that is required for them to have completed their job role!

What about an RPI on board the train?

My experience of this has primarily been on Merseyrail where they literally take a fleeting glance at the ticket and move on without needing to fondle it!

However, should I come across a RPI who is demanding a feel of my ticket, I'd maybe request that they call the TM so I at least have a railway staff member witness the interaction. I imagine the less scrupulous RPI's would be less willing to head down the power trip route with another railway staff member present and might realise the utterly pointless request to hold my ticket has cost them a lot more time than a quick glance at my ticket would have taken

Your ticket has to be handed over for validation and where appropriate, clipping/stamping, it is very much the norm in most places for tickets to be stamped or marked.

All can be done whilst I retain possession of the ticket. However, I have already said that I have no issue with an onboard TM clipping/stamping my ticket for validation

If I refuse to show an inspector a paper ticket do they get to search me to try and find the ticket or get ID such as a driving license?

Don't get me wrong, if I am unable to present a valid ticket when asked or refuse to produce ID then I should be put through the process and my refusal to comply recorded, but if an inspector wishes to take matters further they should involve the BTP.

I'm not sure of the rules and laws for searches but I presume they could get BTP involved who I guess have some sort of stop and search powers. However, they are more likely to simply hit you with a penalty fare or take your details for further investigation and potential criminal proceedings.

I now SussexSeagull hasn't specifically responded to any of my posts here but just for avoidance of doubt none of what I have said in this thread relates to a refusal to show a valid ticket and it would never make any sense to head down this route if you have a ticket

 

[LowLevel]

It's the same in all walks of life. If you had a ticket (which didn't have your name on it) to a football match and someone stood outside the ground, away from the turnstile, wearing a hi-viz jacket asked you to hand over your ticket, would you hand it over?

I'm sure that the vast majority of RPI's are fine but unfortunately for that job role, there are a few who do it for the power trip and enjoying making people feel small. At the end of the day, RPI's are there for Revenue Protection and that means ensuring people are travelling with a valid ticket. If I can prove this by SHOWING them my ticket, I see no reason why it would need to go any further and that is exactly what my experience has been - I've never experienced a RPI demanding that I hand over my ticket and the reason I have never experienced it is because all the RPI's I have come across have the sense to see that me showing them a valid ticket is all that is required for them to have completed their job role!


My experience of this has primarily been on Merseyrail where they literally take a fleeting glance at the ticket and move on without needing to fondle it!

However, should I come across a RPI who is demanding a feel of my ticket, I'd maybe request that they call the TM so I at least have a railway staff member witness the interaction. I imagine the less scrupulous RPI's would be less willing to head down the power trip route with another railway staff member present and might realise the utterly pointless request to hold my ticket has cost them a lot more time than a quick glance at my ticket would have taken


All can be done whilst I retain possession of the ticket. However, I have already said that I have no issue with an onboard TM clipping/stamping my ticket for validation


I'm not sure of the rules and laws for searches but I presume they could get BTP involved who I guess have some sort of stop and search powers. However, they are more likely to simply hit you with a penalty fare or take your details for further investigation and potential criminal proceedings.

I now SussexSeagull hasn't specifically responded to any of my posts here but just for avoidance of doubt none of what I have said in this thread relates to a refusal to show a valid ticket and it would never make any sense to head down this route if you have a ticket

Not so much of an issue nowadays but it does still happen - fake tickets are very much still a thing and the perpetrators often rely in them being left in their wallets or whatever.

The last one I came across was a while ago and was an extremely good quality printout stuck to a piece of a cereal box in a bog standard blue ticket wallet but didn't look *quite* right, because it wasn't - they'd gotten one of the security features wrong.

I've also found a staff travel card with a new set of boxes glued over the (used) old ones.

So it is only pointless from your own perspective in that you know you are honest. The ticket inspector doesn't know that and a refusal to hand the ticket over would only cause a suspicion that something is up to perhaps start in their mind. A ticket inspector on the lookout for fake tickets will often find them in the same way someone might find decent fake bank notes - by holding them.

The other thing they might be looking for is rubbed off clips on reused tickets which might only be obvious up close.

The clue is in the name - Revenue Protection Inspector. They're employed to look into ticketing issues in far more detail than a train guard.

With the significant decline in the use of paper tickets these issues are far less prevalent than 10 years ago but certainly on my retail course even as a train guard I was told to thoroughly feel any tickets I didn't feel looked quite right.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Presumably the other thing that could alert an RPI is someone being uncooperative and going out of their way not to hand their ticket over for inspection?

If you have nothing to hide, all you do by being uncooperative is to make the RPI’s job harder in terms of finding those with invalid and/or deliberately fraudulent tickets, if only by slowing their job down. I’d rather help them and not go around with the attitude that people in authority are out to get me.

 

[Krokodil]

Not so much of an issue nowadays but it does still happen - fake tickets are very much still a thing and the perpetrators often rely in them being left in their wallets or whatever.

Of course e-tickets have opened a whole new avenue for this so it's less likely with CCSTs.

The other thing they might be looking for is rubbed off clips on reused tickets which might only be obvious up close.

There's a lot of that about at the moment, international students commuting into a couple of local universities reusing open returns and cleaning off any dates written on the tickets (before anyone starts banging on about break-of-journey rules, they travelled the full journey and the restriction code prohibits BoJ anyway).

Presumably the other thing that could alert an RPI is someone being uncooperative and going out of their way not to hand their ticket over for inspection?

Now you mention it, I had someone a while ago who presented a weekly season in the usual blue wallet, but only showed one of the three panels - and their body language indicated that it was deliberate rather than just how it happened to open. I asked them to unfold the whole wallet and the ID card was missing. They couldn't produce any other form of ID and the name on the debit card they used to buy a new single ticket was not the same name as that on the weekly. Busted.

 

[Gloster]

Years ago one of the guards at a depot for which I was doing the rostering had, as was normal, a load of commuters in a compartment holding up their seasons for him to inspect. All quite normal, but… Something raised his suspicions, so he asked to look closer at one and it was handed over. The season was in a leather wallet with most of the details above and the date in a lower window. A more careful examination revealed that the date was on a separate piece of card and (as it proved later) the chap had been slicing off the old date and putting a good facsimile in its place, the join being hidden by the strap across the front of the wallet. “Might I have a word with you, please, sir.” And the guard rostered off for an appearance as a court witness.

 

[Tallguy]

If I refuse to show an inspector a paper ticket do they get to search me to try and find the ticket or get ID such as a driving license?

Don't get me wrong, if I am unable to present a valid ticket when asked or refuse to produce ID then I should be put through the process and my refusal to comply recorded, but if an inspector wishes to take matters further they should involve the BTP.

No RPI has the powers or authority to search you or make you turn out your pockets etc. they can demand your ticket, or name and address etc if you can’t produce a valid ticket/permit to travel etc, but if they try to pat you down etc it’s assault, plain and simple.

 

[Krokodil]

No RPI has the powers or authority to search you or make you turn out your pockets etc. they can demand your ticket, or name and address etc if you can’t produce a valid ticket/permit to travel etc, but if they try to pat you down etc it’s assault, plain and simple.

Why would they bother? It's in your interest to produce a valid ticket and their job is to penalise people for not having one. They're not going to go out of their way to find your ticket for you.

 

[87electric]

No it isn't; this used to be the case but changed several years ago.

So my 2015 NRCOC isn't valid now? Seriously though, thanks for the update, I never knew it changed.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Refusing to show an inspector a ticket is an offence, regardless of whether you have one. There is therefore no need for them to search you to see if you have a valid one.

If you are uncooperative enough that BTP need to be involved then I would imagine your chances of getting an out of court settlement would be fairly low, and you would be taken to court for both the ticketing offence and failure to give your name and address.

If I refuse to show a ticket - be it paper or on my phone - then I have committed an offence and should face the consequences and it is my fault. Same if I don't give my name and address. However it isn't the job of a ticket inspector to perform a virtual cavity search.

Would you be willing to accept the criminal convictions for both not showing a valid ticket, and not giving your details?

We are entering the hypothetical now as I always get a ticket but if someone doesn't produce a ticket then put them through the process that leads to going to court. It isn't a ticket inspectors job to do actual or virtual searches.

It's the same in all walks of life. If you had a ticket (which didn't have your name on it) to a football match and someone stood outside the ground, away from the turnstile, wearing a hi-viz jacket asked you to hand over your ticket, would you hand it over?

I'm sure that the vast majority of RPI's are fine but unfortunately for that job role, there are a few who do it for the power trip and enjoying making people feel small. At the end of the day, RPI's are there for Revenue Protection and that means ensuring people are travelling with a valid ticket. If I can prove this by SHOWING them my ticket, I see no reason why it would need to go any further and that is exactly what my experience has been - I've never experienced a RPI demanding that I hand over my ticket and the reason I have never experienced it is because all the RPI's I have come across have the sense to see that me showing them a valid ticket is all that is required for them to have completed their job role!


My experience of this has primarily been on Merseyrail where they literally take a fleeting glance at the ticket and move on without needing to fondle it!

However, should I come across a RPI who is demanding a feel of my ticket, I'd maybe request that they call the TM so I at least have a railway staff member witness the interaction. I imagine the less scrupulous RPI's would be less willing to head down the power trip route with another railway staff member present and might realise the utterly pointless request to hold my ticket has cost them a lot more time than a quick glance at my ticket would have taken


All can be done whilst I retain possession of the ticket. However, I have already said that I have no issue with an onboard TM clipping/stamping my ticket for validation


I'm not sure of the rules and laws for searches but I presume they could get BTP involved who I guess have some sort of stop and search powers. However, they are more likely to simply hit you with a penalty fare or take your details for further investigation and potential criminal proceedings.

I now SussexSeagull hasn't specifically responded to any of my posts here but just for avoidance of doubt none of what I have said in this thread relates to a refusal to show a valid ticket and it would never make any sense to head down this route if you have a ticket

I agree. As I said I always get a ticket but if I didn't no amount of searching my person or phone would find one. In that case if they can't prove to their own satisfaction you are who you say you are then involve the BTP who will be trained in the laws and techniques of searching people.

 

[Krokodil]

If I refuse to show a ticket - be it paper or on my phone - then I have committed an offence and should face the consequences and it is my fault. Same if I don't give my name and address. However it isn't the job of a ticket inspector to perform a virtual cavity search.

Funny you should mention it but I was chatting to an friend this evening who was a Eurostar TM many years back, the days when border/customs checks were done onboard. He said that when a passenger gave them grief (which wouldn't have been related to tickets as Eurostar ticket checks take place before boarding) the customs officers were quite willing to turn over the entire contents of said passenger's luggage.

It isn't a ticket inspectors job to do actual or virtual searches.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that it is. There's no need to physically search someone, it's on them to prove that they've got a ticket not the TOC to prove that they haven't secreted one somewhere. Re: phones, it's quite straightforward for TOC digital fraud teams to closely examine an account from the comfort of their computer, beginning only with the UTN of the ticket flagged by the frontline staff. There's no need for them to handle it. I only ever touch a passenger's phone with their consent, in their full view, and to assist them when they're struggling.

 

[SussexSeagull]

Funny you should mention it but I was chatting to an friend this evening who was a Eurostar TM many years back, the days when border/customs checks were done onboard. He said that when a passenger gave them grief (which wouldn't have been related to tickets as Eurostar ticket checks take place before boarding) the customs officers were quite willing to turn over the entire contents of said passenger's luggage.

They are customer's officers so have a different set of rules.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that it is. There's no need to physically search someone, it's on them to prove that they've got a ticket not the TOC to prove that they haven't secreted one somewhere. Re: phones, it's quite straightforward for TOC digital fraud teams to closely examine an account from the comfort of their computer, beginning only with the UTN of the ticket flagged by the frontline staff. There's no need for them to handle it. I only ever touch a passenger's phone with their consent, in their full view, and to assist them when they're struggling.

It had been suggested earlier ticket inspectors were taking phones off people to examine them for evidence. I was suggesting this is the virtual equivalent of searching someone for a ticket ID.

Beginning to repeat myself now so will take a step back from the thread.

 

[Krokodil]

They are customer's officers so have a different set of rules.

I know, it was just an amusing anecdote I happened to hear earlier.

It had been suggested earlier ticket inspectors were taking phones off people to examine them for evidence.

I don't know any member of staff who would do that. As I said before, there's no need when the fraud team can interrogate their account from the comfort of their office.

 

[Bluejays]

Funny you should mention it but I was chatting to an friend this evening who was a Eurostar TM many years back, the days when border/customs checks were done onboard. He said that when a passenger gave them grief (which wouldn't have been related to tickets as Eurostar ticket checks take place before boarding) the customs officers were quite willing to turn over the entire contents of said passenger's luggage.

Fantastic. I like that !

 

[Krokodil]

Just to clarify, it was when the passenger gave the TM grief that the customs officers would be extra thorough. Not merely if the passenger was awkward for the customs officers themselves.

 

[[.n]]

So my 2015 NRCOC isn't valid now? Seriously though, thanks for the update, I never knew it changed.

Not sure if you are being serious but yes - they are now the NRCOT (National Rail Conditions of Travel) https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/your-rights-and-obligations-as-a-passenger/

current version valid from Feb 2022 https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf