Concessionary passes withdrawn in Nottingham

[howittpie]

Utter disgrace. You're likely to get Derbyshire pensioners travelling into Nottingham for free then suddenly finding they have to pay £4 for the return, which they may not have. Can't Trent Barton put in a "stop" somewhere in the middle of the A52 to force Nottingham to have to subsidise this as a local service?

No one is going to be left stranded there are still 9 other buses per hour that passes can be used on. 6 of these also serve QMC. People have a choice if they still wish to travel for free they can on a slower service if they still want to use Red Arrow then they pay.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Could this be the council's plan to encourage tram usage to QMC?

The QMC is alight only towards Derby and set down only towards Nottingham. If people are finding ways of doing it, it is probably simply because the individual driver is letting them.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

The QMC is alight only towards Derby and set down only towards Nottingham. If people are finding ways of doing it, it is probably simply because the individual driver is letting them.

Well when people are enquiring about e.g. Hucknall to QMC journeys on Trent Barton Live facebook they are always told to transfer to Red Arrow at Vic Centre by the company themselves.
A check on the Red Arrow fare checker only lists Nottingham & Derby Fare stages - no mention of QMC - but a Nottingham to Nottingham journey is shown as £2.10 single £4.10 two trip etc on that route.

 

[neilmc]

No one is going to be left stranded there are still 9 other buses per hour that passes can be used on. 6 of these also serve QMC. People have a choice if they still wish to travel for free they can on a slower service if they still want to use Red Arrow then they pay.

Then how exactly is this money going to be saved if pensioners use an alternative service to travel from Nottingham to Derby? Is the Red Arrow a substantially more expensive cash fare than the alternatives thus demanding a higher subsidy payment to the operator? Is it that Derbyshire are more generous allowing the use of passes on an "express" service or are Notts trying to pull a fast one by redesignating a stage carriage service as something else (I don't know what the exact mileages are). Either way it's the lunacy of all the loopholes involved which allows a bus service to be free in one direction but not the other. Only in this country!

 

[overthewater]

Then how exactly is this money going to be saved if pensioners use an alternative service to travel from Nottingham to Derby? Is the Red Arrow a substantially more expensive cash fare than the alternatives thus demanding a higher subsidy payment to the operator? Is it that Derbyshire are more generous allowing the use of passes on an "express" service or are Notts trying to pull a fast one by redesignating a stage carriage service as something else (I don't know what the exact mileages are). Either way it's the lunacy of all the loopholes involved which allows a bus service to be free in one direction but not the other. Only in this country!

* Red Arrow Single is £5.00
* I4 Single is £3.30.

It would seem Derbyshire is more generous. Its been said far to many time in England the councils pay for the passes, instead of the one single body covering everyone. You also have to wonder what the reimbursement rate is in both council areas?

 

[SCH117X]

The Councils view could be that if concession holders have to use the i4 a good proportion simply will not make the journey.

 

[pjnathanail]

Does this apply to the specific service registration only? Could TB get round the issue by de registering the Red Arrow and re registering it as some obscure service number (for operational purposes only) and start off a game of cat and mouse in effect, with the council forever forced to update their policies/reclassify the service/go out to consultation again. Even if it doesn't actually solve the problem it would show the council that they're not the only ones who can play silly games... Alternatively there's the option of doing something like a fast i4 (all stops to Bramcote Island then express to Derby) using service buses and deploying some Red Arrow coaches in the place of those service buses. So cut RA frequency to 3bph, send some coaches to Rapid 1 say and then use Rapid 1 buses on Xi4.

 

[pjnathanail]

The QMC is alight only towards Derby and set down only towards Nottingham. If people are finding ways of doing it, it is probably simply because the individual driver is letting them.

This isn't true, we've made extensive use of the QMC stop for travelling to/from Nottingham. Plus bus and Kangaroo tickets are accepted for that journey too akaik.

 

[tbone]

If a group of passengers constantly got on a bus service, got told their fare was £5 and paid £1.50 and sat down, no right minded company would change their service to suit them, if it was to the detriment of those that got on and paid the correct amount. That's essentially what's happening here, albeit with someone else picking up the tab.

Given the poor reimbursement rate, Trent Barton might nit be trying anything in the basis that they actually benefit. If we generously say they get 50% of the single fare, in this case £2.50, they only need just over half the amount of OAPs to earn the same amount. Even fewer if the reimbursement rate is lower, quite likely judging by the conversation so far.

Evening peak journeys are often approaching full at present with a mix of paying customers and over 60s. The new system means they either not on there or paying the full whack (the £4 ticket not being available during evening peak) which saves room and prevents frustration from those who actually keep the service financially sound.

And even better, they can blame the nasty authority for it all so there's no backlash. Why go to the effort of slowing down Red Arrow or dedicating assets to different services for the sake of people who don't pay themselves and those that pay on their behalf don't cough up what they should?

 

[Mitch in Notts]

This isn't true, we've made extensive use of the QMC stop for travelling to/from Nottingham. Plus bus and Kangaroo tickets are accepted for that journey too akaik.

From the Kangaroo website:

The Kangaroo ticket allows unlimited travel on most buses, trams and trains within Greater Nottingham* - no matter who operates the service! So, if you want to travel on a bus and then switch to a train or tram, you can with Kangaroo!

The following services are excluded:
Trent Barton - Red Arrow, Skylink Express and all services between midnight and 4am
Yourbus - all services between midnight and 4am

 

[tbone]

The Kangeroo not being accepted on Red Arrow is a fairly recent change.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Is the route registered as a local bus service with stops more frequent than every 15 miles? if so I would assume that Notts CC's actions would be contrary to the conditions of the scheme... ie that it should be valid on every local bus service.

What is the incentive for the operator in not registering services like this as local bus services? It's always puzzled me why they don't.

 

[Stan Drews]

What is the incentive for the operator in not registering services like this as local bus services? It's always puzzled me why they don't.

Registered Local Bus Services are generally eligible for BSOG (Bus Service Operators Grant) - previously known as FDR (Fuel Duty Rebate), which equates to a significant financial boost to the operator.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Registered Local Bus Services are generally eligible for BSOG (Bus Service Operators Grant) - previously known as FDR (Fuel Duty Rebate), which equates to a significant financial boost to the operator.

Yes, that's a good reason to register as a local service. My question was what is the incentive NOT to, as Red Arrow has not.

 

[Stan Drews]

Yes, that's a good reason to register as a local service. My question was what is the incentive NOT to, as Red Arrow has not.

I'm not aware of any "incentive" for operators NOT to register their services, but to be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at?

 

[wellwhatitis]

I'm not aware of any "incentive" for operators NOT to register their services, but to be honest, I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at?

OK. So we've established that only local bus services are eligible for BSOG and also for the ENCTS payments.

It is pointed out further up the thread that the Red Arrow service is not registered as a local bus service. So I wondered why the operator would not want it registered as a local bus service? Or why any operator would run anything that isn't unless it was a private contract?

 

[221129]

OK. So we've established that only local bus services are eligible for BSOG and also for the ENCTS payments.

It is pointed out further up the thread that the Red Arrow service is not registered as a local bus service. So I wondered why the operator would not want it registered as a local bus service? Or why any operator would run anything that isn't unless it was a private contract?

Believe different regs apply.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Believe different regs apply.

Yes I know. That's what we've already established, but the question is what is the benefit to the operator in running it this way? Trent Barton must have decided to register Red Arrow this way for a reason?

 

[Stan Drews]

OK. So we've established that only local bus services are eligible for BSOG and also for the ENCTS payments.

It is pointed out further up the thread that the Red Arrow service is not registered as a local bus service. So I wondered why the operator would not want it registered as a local bus service? Or why any operator would run anything that isn't unless it was a private contract?

Sorry, where was it established that it wasn't a registered local bus service? If Derby passes are valid then it would have to be registered, as the ENCTS scheme is certainly not applied to any services which aren't registered. This appears to be a decision taken by Notts Council, and judging by the news story on the Trent Barton website, not one that the operator is happy with. Personally, I believe that a legal challenge could put the council in a very difficult position, so be very interesting to see how this story develops.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Sorry, where was it established that it wasn't a registered local bus service? If Derby passes are valid then it would have to be registered, as the ENCTS scheme is certainly not applied to any services which aren't registered. This appears to be a decision taken by Notts Council, and judging by the news story on the Trent Barton website, not one that the operator is happy with. Personally, I believe that a legal challenge could put the council in a very difficult position, so be very interesting to see how this story develops.

See posts 3-8, talk of it being classed as a 'premium service'?

 

[tbone]

See posts 3-8, talk of it being classed as a 'premium service'?

In order to qualify for ENTCS reimbursement, a service must firstly qualify as a local registered service and then not be subject to an exception.

In this instance, it has passed the test for being a qualifying service and as such receives BSOG but has restrictions such as an obligation to run to a timetable and sanctions if it doesn't.

However, in this instance, Nottingham CC has argued that the service falls under an exception, this being that part of the fare is for a special amenity. Essentially, they argue that the price difference between fares on i4 and Red Arrow between Derby and Nottingham shows that part of the Red Arrow fare is payment for the speed and comfort of the service.

They are two seperate hoops to jump through. A service may be a registered service and be either expempt or not (even both at the same time, as in this instance!) whilst an unregistered service may not fall under an exception but would still not get any reimbursement as it is not registered.

Like you point out, there are few benefits to being unregistered and therefore Red Arrow is and continues to be.

 

[howittpie]

Not sure if this has been mentioned there are also changes to concessionary passes on Citylink 1 and 2 from the park and ride sites. Only passes issued by Nottinghamshire or the city council will be accepted everyone else will have to pay. Not sure if this affects intermediate stops on the routes.

 

[wellwhatitis]

In order to qualify for ENTCS reimbursement, a service must firstly qualify as a local registered service and then not be subject to an exception.

In this instance, it has passed the test for being a qualifying service and as such receives BSOG but has restrictions such as an obligation to run to a timetable and sanctions if it doesn't.

However, in this instance, Nottingham CC has argued that the service falls under an exception, this being that part of the fare is for a special amenity. Essentially, they argue that the price difference between fares on i4 and Red Arrow between Derby and Nottingham shows that part of the Red Arrow fare is payment for the speed and comfort of the service.

They are two seperate hoops to jump through. A service may be a registered service and be either expempt or not (even both at the same time, as in this instance!) whilst an unregistered service may not fall under an exception but would still not get any reimbursement as it is not registered.

Like you point out, there are few benefits to being unregistered and therefore Red Arrow is and continues to be.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Why then don't TB just offer to accept the same concessionary rate as they and others get on the slower stopping services? If the issue for the CC is merely the rate at which they have to reimburse pass usage on this particular service?

 

[Bayum]

Surely the title of this thread is scaremongering?

The passes haven't been withdrawn, more they are unable to be used on one particular service.

 

[Mwanesh]

The reason being that its a limited stop service. If you look at all the buses there are many on that route.