Confusion about train fine

[insomniac1994]

My fiance and I both received penalty fines back in April for going onto the train at a different time from our tickets. He appealed his fine and it was successful. His was sorted pretty quickly.

In regards to mine I've only just received correspondence about a month after lodging the first appeal and it's been rejected. I'm very unsatisfied with it because my partner and I received fines for the same reason. Why would his appeal be accepted and mine rejected?

I am wanting to send a 2nd appeal to tell them of the inconsistency. Should I mention about my fiancé's situation?

 

[AlterEgo]

My fiance and I both received penalty fines back in April for going onto the train at a different time from our tickets. He appealed his fine and it was successful. His was sorted pretty quickly.

In regards to mine I've only just received correspondence about a month after lodging the first appeal and it's been rejected. I'm very unsatisfied with it because my partner and I received fines for the same reason. Why would his appeal be accepted and mine rejected?

I am wanting to send a 2nd appeal to tell them of the inconsistency. Should I mention about my fiancé's situation?

Could you upload a copy of the "train fine" you received, with your details redacted?

It's important we know whether it was a Penalty Fare, or some other paperwork such as a report for prosecution.

What was the reason given for the "fine", and what rationale did he give for appealing it?

 

[insomniac1994]

Could you upload a copy of the "train fine" you received, with your details redacted?

It's important we know whether it was a Penalty Fare, or some other paperwork such as a report for prosecution.

What was the reason given for the "fine", and what rationale did he give for appealing it?

The reason for the fine was because I had paid for tickets to go from Barnsley to Harrogate. So I had 2 trains to go there and 2 to come back. I'd bought them off trainline and it said they were for anytime to travel. However, the journey going from Harrogate to Leeds, the ticket for that was actually for the 13.22 service but we'd got on the next service.

I do admit I should have been more careful in checking my tickets but it baffled me how all of my tickets were for any time travel but this one was for a specific train. I did send a complaint to trainline about it and got refunded.

My fiance sent an appeal as he had the exact same experience and his appeal got accepted.

 

[ikcdab]

The notice says you had an advance fare, not an anytime fare. Advance fares are for a timed train. Is that what you're tickets say?

 

[AlterEgo]

My fiance sent an appeal as he had the exact same experience and his appeal got accepted.

I'm shocked the appeal was accepted on these grounds, as that is a valid reason for a Penalty Fare and it appears to have been correctly issued. Do you have a copy of the appeal-upheld correspondence? Can you post it here? It may assist your appeal if you can show the exact reasoning behind your fiance's appeal being upheld.

 

[insomniac1994]

The notice says you had an advance fare, not an anytime fare. Advance fares are for a timed train. Is that what you're tickets say?

No they didn't. They said anytime day ticket but then this specific one was Advanced.

I'm shocked the appeal was accepted on these grounds, as that is a valid reason for a Penalty Fare and it appears to have been correctly issued. Do you have a copy of the appeal-upheld correspondence? Can you post it here? It may assist your appeal if you can show the exact reasoning behind your fiance's appeal being upheld.

I've attached my fiancé's response from his appeal and mine. From the sounds of it the penalty fare in my fiancé's case wasn't given correctly as the fine slip he was given from the conductor wasn't signed. Neither was mine. Would that be a good argument to make?

 

[ikcdab]

No they didn't. They said anytime day ticket but then this specific one was Advanced

So are you saying you had split tickets for the journey, some anytime and some advanced?

 

[insomniac1994]

Yes. Basically I'd bought anytime tickets on trainline but that specific journey I was on was an advanced ticket which isn't what I was wanting to purchase. Trainline have refunded me for their error.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes. Basically I'd bought anytime tickets on trainline but that specific journey I was on was an advanced ticket which isn't what I was wanting to purchase. Trainline have refunded me for their error.

In what way was it their error? How do they end up selling you an Advance instead of an Anytime? Did they charge you for an Anytime?

This is a very confusing series of events.

 

[30907]

Did either/both of you mention the unsigned slip in your appeal letter?

PS you haven't redacted your names from the upload....

 

[insomniac1994]

In what way was it their error? How do they end up selling you an Advance instead of an Anytime? Did they charge you for an Anytime?

This is a very confusing series of events.

I can see why it would be confusing. I think a technical fault is because of this. I did get charged for an anytime.

 

[30907]

I can see why it would be confusing. I think a technical fault is because of this. I did get charged for an anytime.

If that is the case, have TL paid/offered to pay the £50 penalty element as well?

 

[insomniac1994]

Did either/both of you mention the unsigned slip in your appeal letter?

PS you haven't redacted your names from the upload....

Thank you I have corrected and redacted the name.

I did ask my fiance and he said in his appeal letter his slip wasn't signed. I'm guessing that's what helped his appeal be accepted.

I haven't mentioned it in mine

If that is the case, have TL paid/offered to pay the £50 penalty element as well?

No they only offered to refund for fayre for that single ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you I have corrected and redacted the name.

I did ask my fiance and he said in his appeal letter his slip wasn't signed. I'm guessing that's what helped his appeal be accepted.

That wouldn't make a Penalty Fare invalid. Was that the only ground he raised - that he didn't sign it?

I'm unsure what other parts of the Notice would be non-compliant as from what you posted, your Notice looks to have been properly filled in.

Do you have a copy of the resolution of your complaint from Trainline? If they really do accept they missold you a ticket you can claim compelling circumstances on this, and appeal your Penalty fare.

 

[insomniac1994]

That wouldn't make a Penalty Fare invalid. Was that the only ground he raised - that he didn't sign it?

I'm unsure what other parts of the Notice would be non-compliant as from what you posted, your Notice looks to have been properly filled in.

Do you have a copy of the resolution of your complaint from Trainline? If they really do accept they missold you a ticket you can claim compelling circumstances on this, and appeal your Penalty fare.

No he also argued the same as me that we didn't know it was for a specific time and it was a genuine mistake.

 

[AlterEgo]

No he also argued the same as me that we didn't know it was for a specific time and it was a genuine mistake.

So they have not admitted any error. They've explained what you have bought, and, as the flexible ticket was unused, refunded that, as per the terms and conditions. They didn't refund your Advance, or admit to any error. Ultimately you bought split tickets, as would be indicated on Trainline, saving you money.

I am inclined to think your fiance's appeal was upheld by mistake by the assessor. They may have confused cases, or sent out the wrong template letter.

I don't see any reason why your Penalty Fare could be successfully appealed, unless you plead compelling circumstances and attach your fiance's decision letter and ask for consistency.

 

[insomniac1994]

So they have not admitted any error. They've explained what you have bought, and, as the flexible ticket was unused, refunded that, as per the terms and conditions. They didn't refund your Advance, or admit to any error. Ultimately you bought split tickets, as would be indicated on Trainline, saving you money.

I am inclined to think your fiance's appeal was upheld by mistake by the assessor. They may have confused cases, or sent out the wrong template letter.

I don't see any reason why your Penalty Fare could be successfully appealed, unless you plead compelling circumstances and attach your fiance's decision letter and ask for consistency.

I think that's the only solution for my 2nd appeal to be successful tbh. Thank you for being patient and letting me know all of this information. I've never had this experience before and it can be frustrating with how strict protocols are for getting a ticket for a train. But its just how it is i guess haha.

Thank you again

 

[methecooldude]

So they have not admitted any error. They've explained what you have bought, and, as the flexible ticket was unused, refunded that, as per the terms and conditions. They didn't refund your Advance, or admit to any error. Ultimately you bought split tickets, as would be indicated on Trainline, saving you money.

I am inclined to think your fiance's appeal was upheld by mistake by the assessor. They may have confused cases, or sent out the wrong template letter.

I don't see any reason why your Penalty Fare could be successfully appealed, unless you plead compelling circumstances and attach your fiance's decision letter and ask for consistency.

It looks like on the letter to the fiancé that his PFN was, for whatever reason, not compliant with the regulations. Maybe the inspector put slightly different things on each one which somehow made his in violation of the regs, but hers not?

 

[AlterEgo]

It looks like on the letter to the fiancé that his PFN was, for whatever reason, not compliant with the regulations. Maybe the inspector put slightly different things on each one which somehow made his in violation of the regs, but hers not?

It could also be the case, although we can't be certain without viewing that Notice.

 

[methecooldude]

It could also be the case, although we can't be certain without viewing that Notice.

Of course, was just my guess as to why there may be variations

 

[insomniac1994]

It could also be the case, although we can't be certain without viewing that Notice.

The difference between our PFNs was his is recorded at being given at Weeton and mine was issued in Harrogate.

His has also been noted that he "claimed" to have changed his name. My partner has changed his name by deedpoll but it hasn't changed on his passport yet so when he presented his passport as ID it had his old name on.

 

[30907]

The difference between our PFNs was his is recorded at being given at Weeton and mine was issued in Harrogate.

He flagged up the lack of a signature, and it won him the appeal. You could do the same?

 

[ikcdab]

I don't know why the cases were treated differently.
But it seems that the penalty fare was correctly issued.
Split tickets can save money but that comes with complications. Your split ticket had a portion of it with an advanced fare. That sort of ticket can only be used on specified trains. That means that your anytime ticket is also, in effect, restricted otherwise you would not be on the correct train for the advanced ticket. You were not on the specified train for your advanced ticket and so the penalty is due. Trainline did not make any error and they did not admit to one. They issued the split ticket you requested.
It is worth trying a second appeal on the basis on inconsistency, but I doubt it will get far and if the fiance's appeal was accepted in error, you risk it being overturned.
Split tickets can save money but they come with complexity that you need to understand.

 

[AlterEgo]

Penalty fare appeals which are successful can’t be overturned. The decision is final.

 

[ikcdab]

Penalty fare appeals which are successful can’t be overturned. The decision is final.

It's correct that an appeal can't be overturned. But you said upthread "They may have confused cases, or sent out the wrong template letter."
So if that were the case, the appeal was denied but the wrong letter was sent out, then that can be corrected. Albeit with some hassle, but it's worth not drawing their attention to it.

 

[insomniac1994]

It's correct that an appeal can't be overturned. But you said upthread "They may have confused cases, or sent out the wrong template letter."
So if that were the case, the appeal was denied but the wrong letter was sent out, then that can be corrected. Albeit with some hassle, but it's worth not drawing their attention to it.

I don't see them overturning my fiances appeal. They sent him a letter saying it was successful. All he had to pay was the single fare which he's done now.

I'll try a 2nd appeal. If it's not successful at least I tried

 

[AlbertBeale]

I think that's the only solution for my 2nd appeal to be successful tbh. Thank you for being patient and letting me know all of this information. I've never had this experience before and it can be frustrating with how strict protocols are for getting a ticket for a train. But its just how it is i guess haha.

Thank you again

I'm not sure how it's a "strict protocol" to have to buy a valid ticket before you get on a train - that's pretty basic. No more "strict" than having to pay the right cost of an item when you're in a shop, surely?

If you find buying tickets on apps too confusing, then you can just buy your ticket at the station - they can sell you anythng that an app can, and often cheaper (in the case of 3rd party ticketing companies like Trainline, who often charge you a mark-up - as well as creaming off some of the ticket cost before paying the railway).

 

[Hadders]

If you find buying tickets on apps too confusing, then you can just buy your ticket at the station - they can sell you anythng that an app can, and often cheaper (in the case of 3rd party ticketing companies like Trainline, who often charge you a mark-up - as well as creaming off some of the ticket cost before paying the railway).

Trainline doesn't charge fees for walk up tickets purchased on the day of travel through their app.

 

[insomniac1994]

I'm not sure how it's a "strict protocol" to have to buy a valid ticket before you get on a train - that's pretty basic. No more "strict" than having to pay the right cost of an item when you're in a shop, surely?

If you find buying tickets on apps too confusing, then you can just buy your ticket at the station - they can sell you anythng that an app can, and often cheaper (in the case of 3rd party ticketing companies like Trainline, who often charge you a mark-up - as well as creaming off some of the ticket cost before paying the railway).

Don't worry any trains I've taken since then I've bought my tickets at the machine. I don't really trust the app now from this experience