Connecting Northern City Line to Greenwich Line

[bringbackcrouc]

How practical/beneficial/feasible/crayonista would

a) extending all northern city (Moorgate) line trains and stations to twelve car (including Essex Road)
b) extending all Greenwich line platforms to twelve car
Then…
c) splitting off just south of Old Street, hitting Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street, London Bridge, Canada Water and then emerging in a portal west of Deptford…
d) building the necessary depots
e) adding terminating platforms somewhere sensible (ie Dartford)

 

[JonathanH]

How practical/beneficial/feasible/crayonista would

a) extending all northern city (Moorgate) line trains and stations to twelve car (including Essex Road)
b) extending all Greenwich line platforms to twelve car
Then…
c) splitting off just south of Old Street, hitting Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street, London Bridge, Canada Water and then emerging in a portal west of Deptford…
d) building the necessary depots
e) adding terminating platforms somewhere sensible (ie Dartford)

Not at all

The stations on the Northern City Line would need to be shut for the period of the works.

There most likely isn't space underground, there are already two stations under Liverpool Street and London Bridge and the Docklands Light Railway in the way.

The route would be impractical in any case, as Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street, London Bridge, Canada Water and Deptford aren't in a convenient line. Maybe look at a map.

 

[dodecahedron67]

There is literally 0 space left under Central London apart from the corridor reserved for Crossrail 2, if I remember right

 

[bringbackcrouc]

There is literally 0 space left under Central London apart from the corridor reserved for Crossrail 2, if I remember right

What about crossrail 3 Euston to Waterloo. Is that dead then?

Also my mad plan wouldn’t go close to crossrail 2 and also, can’t we just go deeper!

 

[adamedwards]

The issue with deeper is both fire evacuation (key) and I would assume the time taken to get from platform to street negating any benefit of the faster trains. I am sure I read somewhere that there is a depth below which you simply cannot go with out things like fire protected lifts for evacuation.

It occurs to me that given the Moorgate lines pass through Finsbury Park and from FP you can already use Thameslink to London Bridge, Greenwich and Deptford that direction is well served. Moorgate itself is linked to Liverpool St via the Elizabeth Line station. Canada Water can be reached via the Overground at Highbury and Islington. So I fear you are spending a lot on something to duplicate existing links which are not yet full.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

The issue with deeper is both fire evacuation (key) and I would assume the time taken to get from platform to street negating any benefit of the faster trains. I am sure I read somewhere that there is a depth below which you simply cannot go with out things like fire protected lifts for evacuation.

It occurs to me that given the Moorgate lines pass through Finsbury Park and from FP you can already use Thameslink to London Bridge, Greenwich and Deptford that direction is well served. Moorgate itself is linked to Liverpool St via the Elizabeth Line station. Canada Water can be reached via the Overground at Highbury and Islington. So I fear you are spending a lot on something to duplicate existing links which are not yet full.

It is probably not the most efficient scheme but it does release capacity from Cannon Street, London Bridge and Lewisham to the South by taking over one of the South London metro lines

 

[Bald Rick]

There most likely isn't space underground, there are already two stations under Liverpool Street and London Bridge and the Docklands Light Railway in the way.

There is literally 0 space left under Central London apart from the corridor reserved for Crossrail 2, if I remember right

There isn’t space for this, although there probably is space for another Crossrail line somewhere in central London - depending on the definition of ‘Central’. But certainly not in the City / West End.

What about crossrail 3 Euston to Waterloo. Is that dead then?

to my knowledge, it has never been alive. At least not from a reputable organisation.

Also my mad plan wouldn’t go close to crossrail 2 and also, can’t we just go deeper!

You can easily go deeper, just as long as you don’t want any stations.

The space underground is not just about finding 270m ish of straight level space for station platforms, but also all the access passageways, lift shafts, escalator barrels, ’ticket’ halls, interchange passageways, emergency escape, ventilation, etc etc, and they all have to be in a sensible place in relation to the tunnels, and of course what is above. And even if you get round all that (which in this case, you won’t), you still have to build the thing.

Just to use one example - where at or near Liverpool St would you locate the new station and all the connecting passages, and locate a worksite that would be capable of accessing it safely and accommodating c1000 people on site ?

It is probably not the most efficient scheme but it does release capacity from Cannon Street, London Bridge and Lewisham to the South by taking over one of the South London metro lines

There will be cheaper ways of doing that than building a tunnel of impossibility.

 

[BrianW]

There isn’t space for this, although there probably is space for another Crossrail line somewhere in central London - depending on the definition of ‘Central’. But certainly not in the City / West End.

You can easily go deeper, just as long as you don’t want any stations.

The space underground is not just about finding 270m ish of straight level space for station platforms, but also all the access passageways, lift shafts, escalator barrels, ’ticket’ halls, interchange passageways, emergency escape, ventilation, etc etc, and they all have to be in a sensible place in relation to the tunnels, and of course what is above. And even if you get round all that (which in this case, you won’t), you still have to build the thing.

There will be cheaper ways of doing that than building a tunnel of impossibility.

So, where, if anywhere, is there space for any new tube line, let alone one connecting somewheres currently uderserved?
I'm not suggesting there should be; rather that London is full.
This might help refocus matters on 'The North', and maybe other areas worthy of 'Levelling up' (ie not Tunbridge Wells!).

 

[dub]

Would it not be easier to connect those lines (if you wanted to) by tunnelling between Cannon St and Moorgate? Like a mini-thameslink?

 

[JonathanH]

Would it not be easier to connect those lines (if you wanted to) by tunnelling between Cannon St and Moorgate? Like a mini-thameslink?

Unfortunately not with the Bank of England directly in the way.

 

[306024]

Unfortunately not with the Bank of England directly in the way.

Good plot for a film though. Pretend to build a railway and rob the Bank of England vaults using the tunnel

 

[dub]

Good plot for a film though. Pretend to build a railway and rob the Bank of England vaults using the tunnel

They could call their plot - the bear hunt

We can't go over it.
We can't go under it.
Oh no!
We've got to go through it!

 

[swt_passenger]

So, where, if anywhere, is there space for any new tube line, let alone one connecting somewheres currently uderserved?
I'm not suggesting there should be; rather that London is full.
This might help refocus matters on 'The North', and maybe other areas worthy of 'Levelling up' (ie not Tunbridge Wells!).

There’s room reserved for mainline sized Crossrail 2. I suspect that’s about it.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

There’s room reserved for mainline sized Crossrail 2. I suspect that’s about it.

What about us crayonistas? Our dreams will die if there is no prospect whatsoever of having our lines drawn.

 

[SynthD]

What about us crayonistas? Our dreams will die if there is no prospect whatsoever of having our lines drawn.

Speaking as a crayonista, some dreams dying make the others more special.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would it not be easier to connect those lines (if you wanted to) by tunnelling between Cannon St and Moorgate? Like a mini-thameslink?

Tunnelling from Cannon St ???? Its a good 50 feet above ground level!

 

[JonathanH]

Tunnelling from Cannon St ???? Its a good 50 feet above ground level!

Maybe the solution is to build a viaduct along Walbrook, Threadneedle Street and Old Broad Street to join up Cannon Street and Liverpool Street above ground.

A missed opportunity when they built that office block opposite Cannon Street.

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe the solution is to build a viaduct along Walbrook, Threadneedle Street and Old Broad Street to join up Cannon Street and Liverpool Street above ground.

A missed opportunity when they built that office block opposite Cannon Street.

yes, obviously.

I mean why wouldn’t you want to knock down dozens of buildings in the most expensive part of real estate in the country, many of which are listed, to build a railway to enable the people of Greenwich to get to Stratford by a more circuitous route than the one that already exists.

These planners just have no imagination.

 

[telstarbox]

Will there ever be a viable way to connect the densely populated areas of north Kent and south Essex by rail? Assuming a new river crossing would be too expensive*, could you use the Crossrail tunnel from Abbey Wood then create a chord onto c2c to enable Medway - Dartford - Tilbury - Southend services?

*Although there's money for a road one with the LTC.

 

[Bald Rick]

Will there ever be a viable way to connect the densely populated areas of north Kent and south Essex by rail? Assuming a new river crossing would be too expensive*, could you use the Crossrail tunnel from Abbey Wood then create a chord onto c2c to enable Medway - Dartford - Tilbury - Southend services?

*Although there's money for a road one with the LTC.

Well, you could, but it would be very difficult to build (not least the disruption on the Abbey Wood branch whilst the tunnels are connected), and you would have to choose which services on the c2c line you would run to Kent rather than Fenchurch St, as there isn’t room on the section from Limehouse (where the lines cross) to Barking for both.

Unless you meant building an entirely new line from somewhere in the region of docklands to east of Barking, but if you’re doing that it would be cheaper to just build straight across the river. Tunnels are largely agnostic to whether it is dry land or river above them.

 

[telstarbox]

Ok sure. How many billions for a two track tunnel east - facing at Dartford and Purfleet then

 

[Basil Jet]

Ok sure. How many billions for a two track tunnel east - facing at Dartford and Purfleet then

Is there any spare capacity in the HS1 tunnel under the Thames, or was there before the pandemic? I don't think a curve from the north end of the tunnel to South Ockendon would need any demolition, so services from Romford and Upminster to Gravesend or Medway might be relatively easily achievable.

 

[stuu]

The problem with rail in outer suburbs is that travel patterns are dispersed: there are generally many origins to many destinations. These are not easy to serve using rail, many journeys will need interchanges which reduces competitiveness.

 

[A0wen]

How practical/beneficial/feasible/crayonista would

a) extending all northern city (Moorgate) line trains and stations to twelve car (including Essex Road)
b) extending all Greenwich line platforms to twelve car
Then…
c) splitting off just south of Old Street, hitting Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street, London Bridge, Canada Water and then emerging in a portal west of Deptford…
d) building the necessary depots
e) adding terminating platforms somewhere sensible (ie Dartford)

On 'a' - take a look at Drayton Park on Google Earth - good luck with extending those platforms without fully demolishing the existing station and changing the route of most of the tracks. That said Drayton Pk station is a bit of a hole, so full demolition and start again wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (not that I'm saying it's remotely viable from a BCR point of view).

 

[Tangent]

A route to the west would have slightly less chance of hitting infrastructure - something closer to St Paul's. Then, you could extend by either heading to Waterloo and replacing the drain, or by following the Fleet Line route as far as Charing Cross. In either case, once you got to the end of the core, you would probably then need another section in tunnel for about 3-4 miles until you reached a suitable portal where you could take over a line.

 

[Bald Rick]

A route to the west would have slightly less chance of hitting infrastructure - something closer to St Paul's. Then, you could extend by either heading to Waterloo and replacing the drain, or by following the Fleet Line route as far as Charing Cross. In either case, once you got to the end of the core, you would probably then need another section in tunnel for about 3-4 miles until you reached a suitable portal where you could take over a line.

There’s lots of deep stuff around St Paul’s / Holborn too. Not related to the transport system.

 

[Irascible]

What about us crayonistas? Our dreams will die if there is no prospect whatsoever of having our lines drawn.

You could shut a bunch of stuff, fill in the tunnels, and then rebore new tunnels. That sounds sufficiently bonkers!

It always did annoy me that I couldn't get directly to Bank via the GN route, but there's reasons. If you want to know how nuts it must be down there you just have to ride the DLR tunnel.

On 'a' - take a look at Drayton Park on Google Earth - good luck with extending those platforms without fully demolishing the existing station and changing the route of most of the tracks. That said Drayton Pk station is a bit of a hole, so full demolition and start again wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (not that I'm saying it's remotely viable from a BCR point of view).

Fill the entire cutting in, cut & cover station, flog off the surface?

 

[A0wen]

Fill the entire cutting in, cut & cover station, flog off the surface?

Doesn't address the issue.

Look at the track layout and other lines as it heads north. There's a reason the lines take the formation they do - dead ahead is the abandoned tunnel to Finsbury Park.

 

[Irascible]

Doesn't address the issue.

Look at the track layout and other lines as it heads north. There's a reason the lines take the formation they do - dead ahead is the abandoned tunnel to Finsbury Park.

Yes, I went through it every day for some years ( admittedly I don't think I've ever got off & looked around ) - the other worry would be the gradient up to Finsbury Park if the station went any further north, I suppose. I think the abandoned tunnels are not *that* big an issue but perhaps rearranging some of the other track there might. That is a nice chunk of urban London air though...

 

[Tangent]

There’s lots of deep stuff around St Paul’s / Holborn too. Not related to the transport system.

Not least, I suppose, the remnants of GPO's empire, including vital telecomms infrastructure and the Post Office railway.