Continuous Positive Airway Pressure (CPAP) machine in sleeper compartment

[arabianights]

Edit: Quick answer is that experimentation proves that you can use a CPAP on the Caledonian Sleeper, so long as you use an adaptor for a shaver socket - but it isn't particularly advisable

The internet is pretty ambiguous on whether you can use a CPAP (a device that keeps your airway at a continuous pressure essentially by pumping air down it, most commonly used as medical treatment for sleep apenea) in a sleeper coach; there is no power outlet apart from the shaving socket, which may be unreliable and prone to surges in both directions, but of course adapters are available.

Therefore I propose to answer this question for the sake of future googlers, at least for a Res Med s9 series (which I use), tomorrow, by a process of experimentation, tonight, as I travel.

But in the meantime and this is why I'm starting the thread early - is there any reason I shouldn't do this?

 

[Domh245]

CPAP, or continuous positive airway pressure, is a treatment that uses mild air pressure to keep the airways open

knowing that makes it clearer what a res med s9 is. hopefully you should be able to use it.

 

[Greenback]

It would have been helpful had your initial posting explained what a CPAP machine is and what it does.

 

[clm]

I think the thing to start with (assuming it runs on standard 240V 50Hz mains) is what is the power consumption of the CPAP machine?

From looking at pictures of the sleeper cabins, they seem to use the same style of shaver sockets that you see in bathrooms. These (almost always) contain an isolation transformer with quite thin windings, as such can only provide a small current for a short period of time.

Looking at the data sheet for a quality (MK) socket, the maximum given current is 200mA, so a power of 48W. However the data sheet also states "Loads in excess of 20VA may cause the solid state overload to operate before shaving is completed", so for something running continuously we need a power consumption less than 20W (potentially lots less if it has a poor power factor).

Shaver sockets should have a thermal cut-out to prevent damage, so I wouldn't have thought anything catastrophic could happen if you draw too much power, however there's always the possibility that the sleeper sockets might not have this.

Edit: According to this: http://www.cpap.com/productpage/resmed-s9-autoset-cpap-machine.html#specs-tab, the power consumption is up to 110W and usually 70W. Hence it's a complete no I'm afraid. At best it won't work, at worst you'll start a fire.

 

[Flamingo]

Remember to let the sleeper crew know your Next of Kin contact number when you board, in case the result of the experiment is that it doesn't work.

This is one I would REALLY advise contacting the TOC concerned about beforehand, rather than just turning up and hoping for the best.

 

[me123]

CPAP surely requires quite a bit of energy, and I'm not sure that the shaving socket would be the best way to power it? It's probably not a good idea for the train's electricity supply, or for your (or perhaps the NHS's?) machine - they are expensive.

It's also a loud device, and I'd also wonder if it would disturb passengers in adjacent cabins?

I think the TOC would want to know, and I think they'll stop you. I'd strongly advise you not to use the machine on the train.

 

[arabianights]

It's also a loud device, and I'd also wonder if it would disturb passengers in adjacent cabins?

That is untrue, it is very quiet.

I take the other comments on board and probably won't do it - the transformer for the CPAP is 90W, do not know what the device's power draw is.

 

[me123]

That is untrue, it is very quiet.

I've never come across a quiet one, so I'm very pleased to hear that they do exist.

 

[450.emu]

That is untrue, it is very quiet.

I take the other comments on board and probably won't do it - the transformer for the CPAP is 90W, do not know what the device's power draw is.

Power draw is high (using 250v fuse, operating between 100-240v AC) for a CPAP machine (I had a son who had a Tracheostomy who used a Nippy Junior) - there are external battery packs, which are cumbersome and are only 4 hours max at full pressure (when fully charged) so be prepared if you use one on the train. Depending on the ventilation mode, some may not like the constant whooshing sound, but sure would understand it's use.

See this link to the PDF as an example of the technical stats (at the end of the PDF of the Nippy Junior for voltages)

http://www.nippyventilator.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/0818v4-nippy-jnr-IFU.pdf

 

[Muzer]

All the other points people have made are also valid, but just to add another difficulty to the mix — the shaver sockets are not considered safety critical and will be sacrificed if necessary to get the train moving. For example, when I went on the Caledonian sleeper during one of the Watford Junction blockades a while back, there was a dewirement of the ECML and we had to proceed with a Class 66. These don't have ETH (Electric Train Heating; the power supply to coaches), so there were no shaver sockets and no air con for a significant part of the journey (bathrooms and lights can be run off batteries).

 

[theironroad]

Well, depending on where your starting, you may already be on your way so this is a bit late.

I don't know how medically critical your kit is, but I'd imagine you have a back up supply for power failures. Relying on a train's or plane's power supply is a bit of a gamble really, I'd think more so in old sleeper carriages which only have shaver sockets. Let's just say, my attempt at charging my phone on the Glc to eus sleeper last year led to my phone packing up an having to be hard reset with a lot of inconvenience, but at least my life didn't depend on it.

Good luck.

 

[reb0118]

From www.seat61.com

Power sockets & showers...
Power outlets: There are standard UK 3-pin power sockets in the sleeper lounge car for recharging laptops & mobiles, located on the tables between the sofas. In the sleeper compartments there is a 2-pin sockets above the window marked 'Shavers Only', which in practice can easily be used for recharging mobile phones or cameras if you have a standard European 2-pin adaptor.

CPAP machines: Unfortunately, there are no power sockets on the sleeper suitable for medical machines such as CPAP used by people with breathing problems such as sleep apnea.

 

[amcluesent]

The noise from OPs snoring would likely be more disturbing to pax than a CPAP ventilator.

 

[DarloRich]

The internet is pretty ambiguous on whether you can use a CPAP (a device that keeps your airway at a continuous pressure essentially by pumping air down it, most commonly used as medical treatment for sleep apenea) in a sleeper coach; there is no power outlet apart from the shaving socket, which may be unreliable and prone to surges in both directions, but of course adapters are available.

Therefore I propose to answer this question for the sake of future googlers, at least for a Res Med s9 series (which I use), tomorrow, by a process of experimentation, tonight, as I travel.

But in the meantime and this is why I'm starting the thread early - is there any reason I shouldn't do this?

My guess is you wont be able to use it in the berth as i doubt it will run off the euro adapter/shaver plug lash up.

My dad has one and was advised by FGW not to try to use it in the berth as the electrics cant cope or offer the required level of power. He flew down to Newquay in the end.

 

[DEE-DE]

I've only travelled on the Caledonian Sleeper so far and power provision hasn't been continuous. I have to put my phone down with the screen facing down so I don't get to see the display come on when the charging status changes.

 

[6Gman]

The last time I used a sleeper the shaver socket couldn't even power my razor ...

 

[EssexGonzo]

I'm on tenterhooks here........did the OP use the device on the train in the end, and come out the other side?

(My interest is more than merely a passing one....I also have sleep apnoea but have not yet used one of thee machines).

 

[cjmillsnun]

Power draw is high (using 250v fuse, operating between 100-240v AC) for a CPAP machine (I had a son who had a Tracheostomy who used a Nippy Junior) - there are external battery packs, which are cumbersome and are only 4 hours max at full pressure (when fully charged) so be prepared if you use one on the train. Depending on the ventilation mode, some may not like the constant whooshing sound, but sure would understand it's use.

See this link to the PDF as an example of the technical stats (at the end of the PDF of the Nippy Junior for voltages)

http://www.nippyventilator.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/0818v4-nippy-jnr-IFU.pdf

1A is not high draw. Bear in mind the smallest plug fuse is 3A. That said, a machine like that would need a clean power supply, and that is not what you get on a train.

 

[arabianights]

I'm on tenterhooks here........did the OP use the device on the train in the end, and come out the other side?

(My interest is more than merely a passing one....I also have sleep apnoea but have not yet used one of thee machines).

I'm not planning on answering the thread properly (I'm writing this in France) until I have made the return journey which is in under 48 hours.

You can draw your own conclusions from that which will probably be correct...

Edit: Oh, what the hay - may as well let you know.

I originally wasn't going to after this thread, especially when I had also tried charging my laptop (which there is considerably more info about online to suggest it will work) and it didn't work - but in the end curiosity got the better of me, and essentially it worked, but there are a few caveats:

1. What I take to be "gapping" every twenty or thirty minutes meant a power loss to it of at least 30 seconds which usually woke me up**. I did not put it on until after Carstairs (I was on the Lowland) but I expect it would have failed there as well.
2. At one point which I thought at the time to possibly be Preston or Crewe but really could have been many places the train in my totally uninformed guess (you may be able to tell from this I wasn't sleeping very well ANYWAY due to the suspension sounding like it needed oiling*) seemed to shut off power for a while approaching a signal or something and there was another gap of twenty minutes or so.

But - with the above caveats - using a CPAP is certainly physically possible. However, for the reasons given in this thread (as well as said above noise, much worse than I remember it), I will not be trying it again except for my journey back, until the new trains come in. And I cannot recommend it for a good nights' sleep given the gapping problem.


*I'm aware it doesn't really need oiling, all I know is it was noisy!

**For those unfamiliar with a CPAP, this is quite a violent event. You have a breathing mask that is forming an airtight seal around your "breathing orificies" and suddenly it goes from providing pressured air to air at leass than atmospheric pressure (won't kill you because the CPAP has safety measures built in to allow other air in but certainly not at a high flow rate)

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Ah yes - the power supply through these sockets seems to go off at neutral sections as well as during shunting operations. If I'm charging an iPhone the "charger connecting beep" often wakes me up briefly when the power comes back on. The aircon also drops out at the same places – that can wake some people up too (or give them dreams about being on a plane whose engines suddenly fail )

 

[TUC]

I've never come across a quiet one, so I'm very pleased to hear that they do exist.

They're not noisy. Otherwise how do you think the partners of those who use CPAP would cope with it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I got caught out when planning to use my CPAP machine on the Caledonian Sleeper several years ago. I have to admit that, given that most long distance trains have power sockets these days, I just assumed that the sleeper would. Hopefully the new sleeper vehicles will address this, but frankly I'm amazed that it's something that Scotrail didn't fix years ago, given the number of passengers who will want to charge their phones, laptops etc. overnight.

 

[broadgage]

1A is not high draw. Bear in mind the smallest plug fuse is 3A. That said, a machine like that would need a clean power supply, and that is not what you get on a train.

1 amp IS high draw in the context of a shaver outlet incorporating an isolating transformer. These are typically rated to supply about one tenth of an amp continually and perhaps twice that short term.

 

[najaB]

Hopefully the new sleeper vehicles will address this, but frankly I'm amazed that it's something that Scotrail didn't fix years ago, given the number of passengers who will want to charge their phones, laptops etc. overnight.

I believe that the new vehicles will have sockets, but retrofitting even a pair of 5A supplies to the existing stock would require almost a total rebuild. Given that Scotrail only ran the sleeper because it was a franchise requirement, it would have been asking a lot of them to invest hundreds of thousands (millions?) into a project that probably wouldn't increase patronage that much. I don't think there are many people who say "I was going to get the sleeper, but I'll fly instead because my iPhone needs to be charged when I get there."

 

[TUC]

I believe that the new vehicles will have sockets, but retrofitting even a pair of 5A supplies to the existing stock would require almost a total rebuild.

As stock such as 125s have been retrofitted with sockets it must have been economically viable to do so.

I don't think there are many people who say "I was going to get the sleeper, but I'll fly instead because my iPhone needs to be charged when I get there."

The difference is though that a phone is unlikely to run out of powers in a flight between Scotland and England, but is quite likely to run out of power on a sleeper.

 

[najaB]

As stock such as 125s have been retrofitted with sockets it must have been economically viable to do so.

The economics of daytime stock that is going to be making multiple turns a day carrying 70 passengers per carriage (certainly more considering that not everyone is going to travel the entire route) are completely different to sleeper stock that will make one turn per night, carrying at most 22 (24?) passengers.

The difference is though that a phone is unlikely to run out of powers in a flight between Scotland and England, but is quite likely to run out of power on a sleeper.

I don't dispute that, however I very much doubt that will be the deciding factor between flying or getting the sleeper.

 

[me123]

They're not noisy. Otherwise how do you think the partners of those who use CPAP would cope with it?

Obviously the ones I'm thinking about are much older. Back when my Dad had one, my Mum quite simply could not tolerate the noise it made! I've not come across portable ones in a while, at least not outside the healthcare setting, so perhaps the quieter ones have come into play in the last decade or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes - the power supply through these sockets seems to go off at neutral sections as well as during shunting operations. If I'm charging an iPhone the "charger connecting beep" often wakes me up briefly when the power comes back on. The aircon also drops out at the same places – that can wake some people up too (or give them dreams about being on a plane whose engines suddenly fail )

Not wishing to put you off, but sockets on other stock also often trip out when the pantograph is down. I'm pretty sure all auxiliary power on a Pendolino goes out in a neutral section -even the coffee machine does. So sadly no guarantee of a solution in the new stock either.

What might provide a better solution is the development of a CPAP machine with a "UPS" type battery backup so it works acceptably on interruptable mains.

 

[arabianights]

Quick update to say that the journey back was if anything rather better (especially since it was of enough duration to get a proper-ish night's sleep, what with going up the ECML due to a diversion).

I'm not sure if there are significantly less neutral sections on the ECML but it seemed to cut out less as well.

Thanks again to all who gave info and I hope this thread answers the question for others in this predicament until the new stock comes in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What might provide a better solution is the development of a CPAP machine with a "UPS" type battery backup so it works acceptably on interruptable mains.

On an entirely different note, something for sale in the first class lounge at Euston was this device, shaped to be like a pendelino, that is basically a large battery you can use as a phone recharger if you are going to be away from mains power for a while.

I bought one, looked useful and only £15*.

*At this point someone will tell me they've been around for decades and are 99p in Wilkinsons

 

[mirodo]

On an entirely different note, something for sale in the first class lounge at Euston was this device, shaped to be like a pendelino, that is basically a large battery you can use as a phone recharger if you are going to be away from mains power for a while.

I bought one, looked useful and only £15*.

*At this point someone will tell me they've been around for decades and are 99p in Wilkinsons

Not quite decades, and not quite 99p, but they are fairly commonplace and an absolute necessity for me if I'm out and about for long periods.

Unless people have a penchant for Pendo shaped batteries, I would recommend those made by Anker which are sold on Amazon, amongst other places. They range from the small dinky ones for a tenner which will provide a full charge for a smartphone, to larger high capacity ones which will provide multiple recharges and have enough oomph to charge tablets as well as phones.

 

[sprinterguy]

As stock such as 125s have been retrofitted with sockets it must have been economically viable to do so.

That proves that it is technically possible, not necessarily economically viable on the sleeper stock. I'm not sure how much fitting plug sockets would have added to the £7 million cost of the last refurbishment, undertaken in 2000. Probably not much, but you never know: The refurbishment seemed to focus on increased the disabled accessibility along with new carpets and décor than it did altering the electrics.