Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[Clansman]

Sleeper trains have a justifiable business case for operating so long as its viewed in the wider economic context beyond its operation.

 

[Rail Quest]

Isn't it just that the railway isn't quite as interesting as it once was. I'm well aware that the steam bods would have been saying the same thing in the 1970's, but that doesn't necessarily make it not so.

As a trainspotter who joined the hobby within the last ten years - I think the railways are, on paper way more interesting now than ever! The UK railways have so many things that are hybrids of both old and new methods (e.g. signalling which seems to vary drastically from line to line in some areas, such as the signalling of all of the lines out of Shrewsbury). The advent of many new railway technologies has made the hobby as interesting as it's probably ever been IMO.

To me, the reason for perhaps a decline in trainspotting numbers could have something to do with bullying. I've never met a young trainspotter who hasn't been bullied at school for their hobby - I know myself and my mate certainly were. Why would anyone who might find this hobby incredibly interesting and fulfilling actually try it if they're worried about becoming a victim of this? Whilst we, as trainspotters, may have overcome and gotten used to this and think that it's worth it considering the hobby we spend so much time on, its perhaps easy to forget what's it's like starting out.

 

[renegademaster]

If you ever gone on a Railtour with a rare locomotive (or even a class 73 ) you'd notice trainspotters have got younger than ever. Tiktokkers like that Francis guy have helped hugely. I heard lots of older enthusiast sneer at him but him and his imitators are keeping your hobby alive.
A problem is though I doubt many are signing up at heritage railways to do all the jobs typically performed presently by retired people

 

[Rail Quest]

If you ever gone on a Railtour with a rare locomotive (or even a class 73 ) you'd notice trainspotters have got younger than ever. Tiktokkers like that Francis guy have helped hugely. I heard lots of older enthusiast sneer at him and his imitators are keeping your hobby alive.
A problem is though I doubt many are signing up at heritage railways to do all the jobs typically performed presently by retired people

Fair point tbf. Could it be that the younger generation is surging interest in the hobby and it's actually the generations between the young and retired where the numbers lack so when the older generation pass away - the loss of trainspotting numbers could come from a lack of that middle generation?

 

[778]

Mainline steam locomotives trundling around at 20 mph on preserved lines look absolutely tragic and a museum would be better.

What do you mean by mainline steam locomotives? Big express locos or any steam loco that worked on the national network?

 

[renegademaster]

Fair point tbf. Could it be that the younger generation is surging interest in the hobby and it's actually the generations between the young and retired where the numbers lack so when the older generation pass away - the loss of trainspotting numbers could come from a lack of that middle generation?

I think more the problem is that nobody but retired people have the time to contribute anything more than picture taking and the odd ticket, and the retirement age keeps going up and up and people are getting skinter and skitnter

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If properly planned and operated, it can be of great benefit to the consumer. However, recent lack of infrastructure investment in Germany - its country of origin - coupled with a dogged determination to maintain connections at all costs, has led to something of a performance meltdown there.

Not quite. While Germany introduced Takt on their inter-city network in 1979 they were not the first. The Swiss first introduced a strict Takt (ie same times all day long) on Zurich-Rapperswil in 1968. Arguably the first major adopters of the concept were the Dutch railways who by 1971 had introduced regular interval timetabling with multiple hubs across the whole network. 1982 saw the Swiss introduce a national Takt which also included a good deal of integration with other modes and the concept has gradually been expanded to ensure connectivity even in the most isolated areas.

The infrastructure issue is an important one. The Swiss have targeted additional trackage to deliberately create point-to-point times that facilitate Takt. To some extent the Dutch have done similar. But such improvements cost money that may not appear to realise easily identifiable dividends. That is very much the problem with Takt in this country. Provided that the infrastructure is suitable Takt not only provides for consistently efficient operation (ie cost effective) but also provides greater confidence to users and can create a greater set of journey opportunities. What's not to like?

Even better, the two could meet either side of an island platform at New St each hour for say ten minutes and allow bidirectional interchange too, though obviously it would require quite a few other timetables adjusting to allow this to be pathed.

BR Inter-City did precisely that from about the late-1970s onwards though the dwells could reach 15 minutes. But an ever more congested network and an unwillingness to spend the sort of money needed to provide greater capacity makes such timetabling impossible today.

This sort of approach is widely used in Switzerland. To use a UK example, you could run an hourly train from Manchester Airport to Lancaster each hour, going to Barrow and Windermere alternating every two hours, but with a connecting train sat there waiting for the other one in each hour too. It's sort of like that for Barrow but it's not very consistent, and sometimes nothing from the south connects to the Windermere shuttle in the non-through hour nearest the through hour so it's a bit useless.

ISTR that for a while that is very similar to how things were in FNW days except that in the non-through hours Windermere required changing at both Lancaster and Oxenholme. I suspect that Virgin's VHF timetable undermined it in the end.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just thought I'd start a thread about controversial railway opinions, which perhaps stem from irrational "feelings" rather than raw logic, and which are perhaps niche.

TOC specific tickets are always a good thing, given that they offer a really decent saving (compared with "any operator" tickets) and that's definitely worth any loss of flexibility when using same.

 

[Kilopylae]

Quality connections are of benefit to the customer, because it gives them a wider choice of destinations at any time of day.

Only if they're willing to change trains, and my lack of a firm foundation in logic is that they don't want to!

 

[yorksrob]

As a trainspotter who joined the hobby within the last ten years - I think the railways are, on paper way more interesting now than ever! The UK railways have so many things that are hybrids of both old and new methods (e.g. signalling which seems to vary drastically from line to line in some areas, such as the signalling of all of the lines out of Shrewsbury). The advent of many new railway technologies has made the hobby as interesting as it's probably ever been IMO.

To me, the reason for perhaps a decline in trainspotting numbers could have something to do with bullying. I've never met a young trainspotter who hasn't been bullied at school for their hobby - I know myself and my mate certainly were. Why would anyone who might find this hobby incredibly interesting and fulfilling actually try it if they're worried about becoming a victim of this? Whilst we, as trainspotters, may have overcome and gotten used to this and think that it's worth it considering the hobby we spend so much time on, its perhaps easy to forget what's it's like starting out.

I'm sorry to hear you've been bullied.

I was known for being a railway person at school in the 80's but never had any trouble for it. The schools I attended seemed quite accommodating. I remember giving my classmates a talk on the development of the railway network in Kent as part of a public speaking exercise.

 

[12LDA28C]

As a trainspotter who joined the hobby within the last ten years - I think the railways are, on paper way more interesting now than ever! The UK railways have so many things that are hybrids of both old and new methods (e.g. signalling which seems to vary drastically from line to line in some areas, such as the signalling of all of the lines out of Shrewsbury). The advent of many new railway technologies has made the hobby as interesting as it's probably ever been IMO.

I think many would disagree - many 'new railway technologies' are not really visible to your average trainspotter but things that are, such as variety of different types of traction and cargo being hauled have declined hugely since the 1980s/90s. No more nationwide loco-hauled services with a huge and varied fleet of locomotives, Sprinters and their derivatives having taken over, not to mention 66s proliferating on what little freight remains. I certainly wouldn't want to be a trainspotter on today's railway.

 

[Rail Quest]

I'm sorry to hear you've been bullied.

I was known for being a railway person at school in the 80's but never had any trouble for it. The schools I attended seemed quite accommodating. I remember giving my classmates a talk on the development of the railway network in Kent as part of a public speaking exercise.

Thanks. Sounds like a talk that'd be right up my street haha! Nowadays, certainly in the schools in my area - you can't express a genuine interest in something nerdy without getting some undesirable nickname haha. "Train w*nker" was one I remember hearing daily haha. Of course - I've developed a resilience to it all, as do most eventually

I think many would disagree - many 'new railway technologies' are not really visible to your average trainspotter but things that are, such as variety of different types of traction and cargo being hauled have declined hugely since the 1980s/90s. No more nationwide loco-hauled services with a huge and varied fleet of locomotives, Sprinters and their derivatives having taken over, not to mention 66s proliferating on what little freight remains. I certainly wouldn't want to be a trainspotter on today's railway.

The reduced loco hauled traffic on the railways definitely is a shame - I'd loved to have been out in the 80s or 90s to have experienced it for myself. The modern railway technologies that interest me are things like advanced signalling (e.g. ERTMS/ETCS) and even some rolling stock technologies like bi-modes. I suppose it just shows that different people are into to drastically different parts of the railways

 

[Bald Rick]

New threads on restoring the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen and Dumfries to Stranraer lines may only be published if the OP pays £500 to subsidise the next five RailUK meet-ups.

Excellent!

However, the branch line from Penrith to Keswick should be reopened as there is huge demand for this in the three summer months.

£500 please.

 

[The Ham]

New threads on restoring the Aberystwyth to Carmarthen and Dumfries to Stranraer lines may only be published if the OP pays £500 to subsidise the next five RailUK meet-ups.

What's the charge for:

Class 442 based threads?

Dawlish reopening?

 

[Irascible]

Dawlish reopening?

That's a new level of conspiracy theory...

 

[nw1]

I was known for being a railway person at school in the 80's but never had any trouble for it. The schools I attended seemed quite accommodating. I remember giving my classmates a talk on the development of the railway network in Kent as part of a public speaking exercise.

When I was at school, rail enthusiasm didn't seem to be that "uncool", no-one got grief for it thankfully.

Reminds me of one of the first naive questions I asked of an older rail enthusiast when in the first term of the first year of secondary school: "Is it only Inter-City 125s that don't stop at Ascot?"

Presumably at the time I thought Ascot was on the GWML, and the rail network of the Reading area was still a bit of a mystery.

I think many would disagree - many 'new railway technologies' are not really visible to your average trainspotter but things that are, such as variety of different types of traction and cargo being hauled have declined hugely since the 1980s/90s. No more nationwide loco-hauled services with a huge and varied fleet of locomotives, Sprinters and their derivatives having taken over, not to mention 66s proliferating on what little freight remains. I certainly wouldn't want to be a trainspotter on today's railway.

Coming to the railway in the early 80s, I did enjoy the old days of the 80s and 90s, but could still find interest in the railways up to around 2019. It's the post-Covid period and its "timetables with holes" that's really killed the interest in the contemporary UK railway for me, sadly, save one or two TOCs which have done complete recasts and thus still seem to have interesting timetables (Chiltern, LNWR). SWR, though, is IMO a mess. I'm nostalgic for the 2007-19 period nowadays, never mind anything earlier!

 

[eldomtom2]

Being interested in trains is far more mainstream than in most other countries though, where else does the national broadcaster have a dedicated programme about the railways? (Portillo et al are more travelogues which happen to involve trains, they aren't news programmes about developments and technology)

The question is whether or not that is due to higher levels of enthusiasm or due to higher levels of rail usage.

"Certainly"? what gives you that impression?

Obviously there have been no surveys of how many railway enthusiasts there are. But Britain definitely has a higher number of heritage railways and museums per capita than the US or Japan.

Anecdotally I get the impression that being a rail enthusiast in Japan and Germany (to take two examples mentioned in recent posts) doesn't carry the same stigma as is the case in Britain.

That depends. Certainly there have been many incidents in Japan where some railway enthusiasts have given rail enthusiasm a bad name.

 

[nw1]

What's the charge for:

Class 442 based threads?

Nothing wrong with discussing 442s in a historical thread, I hope.

 

[yorksrob]

When I was at school, rail enthusiasm didn't seem to be that "uncool", no-one got grief for it thankfully.

Reminds me of one of the first naive questions I asked of an older rail enthusiast when in the first term of the first year of secondary school: "Is it only Inter-City 125s that don't stop at Ascot?"

Presumably at the time I thought Ascot was on the GWML, and the rail network of the Reading area was still a bit of a mystery.



Coming to the railway in the early 80s, I did enjoy the old days of the 80s and 90s, but could still find interest in the railways up to around 2019. It's the post-Covid period and its "timetables with holes" that's really killed the interest in the contemporary UK railway for me, sadly, save one or two TOCs which have done complete recasts and thus still seem to have interesting timetables (Chiltern, LNWR). SWR, though, is IMO a mess. I'm nostalgic for the 2007-19 period nowadays, never mind anything earlier!

Funnily enough, I don't remember there being any other rail enthusiasts at school or University, so perhaps I was a bit exotic.

I know what you mean though. Trying to negotiate the post covid railway and its various issues has taken the shine off somewhat.

 

[vuzzeho]

When I was at school, rail enthusiasm didn't seem to be that "uncool", no-one got grief for it thankfully.

Reminds me of one of the first naive questions I asked of an older rail enthusiast when in the first term of the first year of secondary school: "Is it only Inter-City 125s that don't stop at Ascot?"

Presumably at the time I thought Ascot was on the GWML, and the rail network of the Reading area was still a bit of a mystery.



Coming to the railway in the early 80s, I did enjoy the old days of the 80s and 90s, but could still find interest in the railways up to around 2019. It's the post-Covid period and its "timetables with holes" that's really killed the interest in the contemporary UK railway for me, sadly, save one or two TOCs which have done complete recasts and thus still seem to have interesting timetables (Chiltern, LNWR). SWR, though, is IMO a mess. I'm nostalgic for the 2007-19 period nowadays, never mind anything earlier!

When I was in primary and secondary school (I started university this September, that should give you a ballpark figure of when I was in school) I wasn't bullied, but it wasn't cool to be into trains. Some teasing, sure, but nothing that concerned me.

I don't love Francis Bourgeois (for reasons which I'm not gonna get into) but I think he's been great at getting people interested in trains, even if it is just a mild interest, by just being friendly and open, and the collabs with celebrities like Rosalìa have helped! I've been seeing lots of TikTok accounts pop up talking about trains and railways (like @theblacktrainboy) and a lot of Roblox train simulators since I've been a kid and I think that they're great in growing interests in trains and the railway. I mean, the abandonment of cringe culture has also led to being a fan of the railways going from something embarrassing to something that people genuinely find cool, at least in my experience. I think one of the biggest reasons people don't come into the fanbase isn't fear of embarrassment, but more the idea that train fans are old men. Diversity matters!

As for there being less variety on the rails these days (at least in the UK), that's true, and I do kinda wish there was more. But it's still hugely interesting and I'm very happy with everything we've got and are getting. Besides, with all the discussions of micro-fleets and premature withdrawals, do we really need more?

Those are just my thoughts though. I don't post on here much, I'm more of a lurker ngl...

Trains are cool!

 

[Bikeman78]

There are probably more railway enthusiasts in Britian, than in all the other countries in the world put together.

The hobby takes different forms in different countries. There are not many bashers in the Netherlands compared with the UK but there are many photographers. On the supposed last day of the class 1200 locos there were thousands of people lineside between Haarlem and Eindhoven. So many that a normal passenger asked me what was going on.

Or no or next to no heritage mainline operations. ETCS is a massive challenge for it if nothing else.

Heritage railways can mitigate for window leaning by ensuring there's nothing within reach to bang your head on, that's not practical for the mainline. Though I do think at some point the Ffestiniog will have to lock the droplight windows because that isn't feasible with their incredibly tight loading gauge.

That would be horrendous on a hot day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only if they're willing to change trains, and my lack of a firm foundation in logic is that they don't want to!

They don't want to because the UK makes the experience stressful.

 

[Tester]

Obviously there have been no surveys of how many railway enthusiasts there are. But Britain definitely has a higher number of heritage railways and museums per capita than the US or Japan.

Which has little to do with the number of enthusiasts!

Also pertinent is that in Japan there are steam hauled trains on the national network which can be used with a normal ticket, and indeed one can travel in normal service on the sort of lines which are heritage operations for us.

Perhaps you have not actually been to Japan, in which case I thoroughly recommend it!

[Disclosure - I'm there at the moment and have been doing a lot of the above, and observing a large number of enthusiasts in my travels.]

 

[gg1]

Obviously there have been no surveys of how many railway enthusiasts there are. But Britain definitely has a higher number of heritage railways and museums per capita than the US or Japan.

That goes back to my earlier comments around types of enthusiast, that suggests there are more (proportionally) in Britain who are interested in the historical/nostalgic elements of the hobby but in Japan there are far more who are interested in the modern elements. Not so sure about the US where there may well be less enthusiasts per head of population than the UK.

That depends. Certainly there have been many incidents in Japan where some railway enthusiasts have given rail enthusiasm a bad name.

I'm assuming you're referring to elements of anti-social behaviour? When I mentioned the stigma of rail enthusiasm in the UK I was referring more to the general attitude of mockery and derision the hobby draws in Britain, I definitely get the impression that's not the case in Japan, at least not to anywhere near the same degree.

 

[Pinza-C55]

There are probably more railway enthusiasts in Britian, than in all the other countries in the world put together.

And the vast majority of the population are not railway enthusiasts.

 

[stuu]

The question is whether or not that is due to higher levels of enthusiasm or due to higher levels of rail usage.

Obviously there have been no surveys of how many railway enthusiasts there are. But Britain definitely has a higher number of heritage railways and museums per capita than the US or Japan.

That's no doubt true but that isn't the same thing. Enthusiasm for contemporary railways is very definitely a mainstream thing in Japan, perhaps there are cultural reasons why they are less interested in the historical aspects?

 

[gg1]

That's no doubt true but that isn't the same thing. Enthusiasm for contemporary railways is very definitely a mainstream thing in Japan, perhaps there are cultural reasons why they are less interested in the historical aspects?

I alluded to it in an earlier comments, since the building of the first Shinkansen line in the 60s, Japan have been world leaders in rail technology and Japanese train manufacturers export to numerous nations across the world, prior to the 1960s their older network was unremarkable compared to their peers at the time and until the 20th century much of the rolling stock was built overseas and imported. With that in mind I don't think it's particularly surprising that most rail enthusiasts in Japan are far more interested in the modern than the historic.

 

[Ken H]

And the vast majority of the population are not railway enthusiasts.

regular users will become attuned to when its starting to go wrong. a signal does not clear, a train they usually see does not run, maybe going the other way, arriving on a busy platform that is usually empty that time of day, not the usual stock. Not enthusiasts, but interested because it affects their lives.

I was on a Cl 37 hauled train in the welsh valleys. A young couple noted the train wasnt the usual type. Not enthusiats, but interested enough to comment. And compare the seats with the usual trains.

 

[nw1]

That's no doubt true but that isn't the same thing. Enthusiasm for contemporary railways is very definitely a mainstream thing in Japan, perhaps there are cultural reasons why they are less interested in the historical aspects?

I guess when you think of Japanese railways you think of the bullet trains, etc.

But when you think of UK railways you perhaps mostly think of BR or Big Four.

So "stereotypical" Japanese railways are modern, but "stereotypical" British railways are from a previous era.

 

[stuu]

I alluded to it in an earlier comments, since the building of the first Shinkansen line in the 60s, Japan have been world leaders in rail technology and Japanese train manufacturers export to numerous nations across the world, prior to the 1960s their older network was unremarkable compared to their peers at the time and until the 20th century much of the rolling stock was built overseas and imported. With that in mind I don't think it's particularly surprising that most rail enthusiasts in Japan are far more interested in the modern than the historic.

Yes that might well be part of it, but also there is the official policy of forgetting about "unfortunate" events pre-1945 which may well influence how the general public view nostalgia/the past in general. It's obvious when you go there that they don't really revere the past for the sake of it in the way that we, and other Europeans, tend to