Controversial railway opinions (without a firm foundation in logic..)

[The Ham]

The single ticket pricing strategy (whereby halving the price of a return) makes little sense since most people lose out, bar the single travellers. It reinforces the preposterous idea that very few make in-and-out journeys on the same day.

If a return cost £100 and now two singles cost £50 each, how does anyone lose out?

In fact, given that most people know at least one departure time, they can often take advantage of an advanced ticket in one direction and so can see some advantage whilst still being flexible with the other.

The 70 minute tickets which LNER have just launched (allows you to swap to any train 70 minutes either side of the original train for free or any train for £10 admin plus any uplift in ticket price) aim to tap into this, in that most people could be sure of when they are almost certainly going to be travelling within a 140 minute window.

To give a practice example, I used to have a team meeting in a location with an hourly train service, the meeting was at 9:00, with the return services running at xx:30, there's no point being on the 9:30 or the 10:30 as the meeting would be longer than that, there was a slim chance that I would be on 11:30, but could have needed to stay to leave in the 13:30, so as long as i was booked on the 12:30 i could flex the ticket to suit.

I knew which service I would be on for the trip up (it was the first service of the day that I could actually catch), so could always book that as an advanced, but then had to buy an off peak single.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The single ticket pricing strategy (whereby halving the price of a return) makes little sense since most people lose out, bar the single travellers. It reinforces the preposterous idea that very few make in-and-out journeys on the same day.

Who loses out exactly, particularly if you (unlike LNER, but like the Oval fares) keep the returns priced at twice the relevant single?

 

[LUYMun]

Who loses out exactly, particularly if you (unlike LNER, but like the Oval fares) keep the returns priced at twice the relevant single?

The return passengers, especially where the contactless extension also eliminates the niche weekend and Sunday tickets in favour of one off-peak fare. That results in more expensive travelling during times that would otherwise help fill seats. In the long run, I could see this as a stealth fare increase when TOCs could complain that they’re losing out to the amount of single tickets.

 

[BogiePicker]

Ok...
- New Pacer based on the experimental 140mph tested High Speed Freight vehicle, but it's actually not rubbish.
- Bin the Birmingham tram, reinstate heavy rail and have a second Birmingham cross city line with a larger GWR gauge, class 165/166 and larger
- Tilting 125mph commuter stock with concealed end gangways, but built with less tilt than 390 and for more cant deficiency so can have more generous gauge
- Double-decker trams in cities, but with multiple working so that trams don't have to be as long. Transverse benches below, longitudinal above

- Direct Stratford - London service and market Marylebone as a wealthy foreign tourist terminal. Lots go to Bicester outlet from there (there was even a dedicated booth for that one destination) but the rolling stock is seriously inadequate. Bicester, Oxford, Stratford.

 

[daodao]

Direct Stratford - London service and market Marylebone as a wealthy foreign tourist terminal.

That is not a new idea. The GCR did exactly that before WW1, with through carriages from Marylebone to Stratford-upon-Avon (SMJR, not GWR) via Woodford Halse several times a day (and other journeys with a connection there), taking under 2 hours 30 minutes (best time 2 hours 6 minutes).

In the early 1900s the Great Central Railway ran four expresses a week on this route for the benefit of Shakespeare enthusiasts during the tourist season.

The Stratford upon Avon & Midland Junction Railway - 'The Shakespeare Route'

www.warwickshirerailways.com

 

[RT4038]

That is not a new idea. The GCR did exactly that before WW1, with through carriages from Marylebone to Stratford-upon-Avon via Woodford Halse several times a day (and other journeys with a connection there), taking under 2 hours 30 minutes (best time 2 hours 6 minutes).

in the early 1900s the Great Central Railway ran four expresses a week on this route for the benefit of Shakespeare enthusiasts during the tourist season.

I am sure Chiltern Trains have provided this facility in the past. I believe BR (W) had summer through coaches via Leamington at one time. However, it seems that the number of passengers does not warrant such through trains on an economical basis (probably because the demand is limited to an a.m. train from London and diffuse departures on the return, the main time being when the train is wanted for peak capacity out of London?). Lots of tourists make the journey on road motor excursions, which are probably more convenient for them anyway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I am sure Chiltern Trains have provided this facility in the past. I believe BR (W) had summer through coaches via Leamington at one time. However, it seems that the number of passengers does not warrant such through trains on an economical basis (probably because the demand is limited to an a.m. train from London and diffuse departures on the return, the main time being when the train is wanted for peak capacity out of London?). Lots of tourists make the journey on road motor excursions, which are probably more convenient for them anyway.

One thing that may be useful to get tourists onto public transport would be to run coaches Oxford to Stratford via Chipping Norton, perhaps taking over the existing Stratford to Chippy bus route.
Through ticketing could be offered on the railway, and it could be marketed as a way to see both historic cities in one day.

 

[greyman42]

If a return cost £100 and now two singles cost £50 each, how does anyone lose out?

If a return cost's £100, and now two singles cost £56 each which is roughly what LNER did, then you do lose out.

 

[RT4038]

One thing that may be useful to get tourists onto public transport would be to run coaches Oxford to Stratford via Chipping Norton, perhaps taking over the existing Stratford to Chippy bus route.
Through ticketing could be offered on the railway, and it could be marketed as a way to see both historic cities in one day.

This route has been the subject of a number of initiatives over the years. Traditionally it was Service no. 44 jointly run by City of Oxford and Stratford Blue, 4 times per day. In more recent times it was the X50, in the mid 90's for a short period an hourly service Oxford-Stratford-Birmingham, then replaced by a two hourly Oxford Tube service between Oxford and Stratford. Both economic basket cases then reduced to 3 times per day. Then the two bus services (Oxford-Chipping Norton and Shipston on Stour-Stratford) joined together on an hourly service. This didn't work financially either; the Chipping Norton-Shipston section being very green fields and not many passengers. About 2004 the two services split with the Chipping Norton-Shipston section eventually back to the same frequency as the 44!

I rather suspect that there are not many people prepared to spend upwards of two hours each way on a service bus, and a limited stop coach service simply doesn't get enough revenue day in-day out because the parallel local buses take a share of the intermediate trade.

 

[12LDA28C]

I am sure Chiltern Trains have provided this facility in the past. I believe BR (W) had summer through coaches via Leamington at one time. However, it seems that the number of passengers does not warrant such through trains on an economical basis (probably because the demand is limited to an a.m. train from London and diffuse departures on the return, the main time being when the train is wanted for peak capacity out of London?). Lots of tourists make the journey on road motor excursions, which are probably more convenient for them anyway.

Chiltern Railways have certainly run direct Marylebone - Stratford services in the past and may well do again depending on the outcome of the various stock procurement tenders currently doing the rounds.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Chiltern Railways have certainly run direct Marylebone - Stratford services in the past and may well do again depending on the outcome of the various stock procurement tenders currently doing the rounds.

Believe there's just one late evening midweek Stratford-upon-Avon -> London Marylebone (Chiltern Trains) through working at present. Departs at or around 2133.

Can't see any through workings in the Northbound direction.

 

[cle]

Stratford used to be much better served by Chiltern, although it was a very slow stopping pattern. A faster, regular service would be very welcome (which of course would likely call Bicester North)

I've always thought they could run Oxford-Stratford too, which might be useful for more local flows as well as for tourism - alternating with Oxford-Moor St which could offer some competition to XC. Both would be good Cowley contenders too, as might EWR (I think better than London services in terms of 'who is working at Oxford Science Park' etc - likely to be 'regional' vs inbound from London)

 

[BogiePicker]

Looks like the crayonista solution to my 'luxury tourist express' proposal is a fast London - Oxford - Bicester - Banbury - Stratford (and maybe continue to Birmingham) service. One train per hour is probably adequate and with that combination of destinations, reasonable loadings should be assured. You could sell a 'multiple stop' ticket so that the tourists could hit Oxford, return for their Bicester train, then Stratford train, etc. Decongest away all the belching diesel coaches from the streets.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Stratford used to be much better served by Chiltern, although it was a very slow stopping pattern. A faster, regular service would be very welcome (which of course would likely call Bicester North)

I've always thought they could run Oxford-Stratford too, which might be useful for more local flows as well as for tourism - alternating with Oxford-Moor St which could offer some competition to XC. Both would be good Cowley contenders too, as might EWR (I think better than London services in terms of 'who is working at Oxford Science Park' etc - likely to be 'regional' vs inbound from London)

This thread is supposed to be for controversial opinions! Can't we make this at least a bit more extravagant! How about reopening Stratford-Honeybourne specifically for this service, so you can run it more directly as Cowley - Oxford - Charlbury - Moreton in Marsh - Stratford - Birmingham? (Actually I suspect such a service would attract quite a bit more custom than the bus people have suggested, but it would be very difficult/expensive to reopen the line for it).

 

[Bald Rick]

Looks like the crayonista solution to my 'luxury tourist express' proposal is a fast London - Oxford - Bicester - Banbury - Stratford (and maybe continue to Birmingham) service. One train per hour is probably adequate and with that combination of destinations, reasonable loadings should be assured. You could sell a 'multiple stop' ticket so that the tourists could hit Oxford, return for their Bicester train, then Stratford train, etc. Decongest away all the belching diesel coaches from the streets.

Reasonable loadings London - Banbury. Rather less so on to Stratford. Which is why Chiltern don‘t do it.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

This thread is supposed to be for controversial opinions! Can't we make this at least a bit more extravagant! How about reopening Stratford-Honeybourne specifically for this service, so you can run it more directly as Cowley - Oxford - Charlbury - Moreton in Marsh - Stratford - Birmingham? (Actually I suspect such a service would attract quite a bit more custom than the bus people have suggested, but it would be very difficult/expensive to reopen the line for it).

I agree. My suggestion would be for a non stop shuttle service from Stratford International to Stratford on Avon to serve all the American tourists who inadvertently bought tickets to the wrong station.

 

[gg1]

- Bin the Birmingham tram, reinstate heavy rail

Definitely. I thought at the time it opened that tram rather than heavy rail was a huge missed opportunity, nothing has happened since that point to change my mind.

 

[HSTEd]

Construction of a self contained Shinkansen/Metro hybrid running London Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Gatwick Airport-Brighton-Littlehampton-Portsmouth-Southampton-Bournemouth-Dorchester-Exeter would be a good idea.
10+ 400m 3.38m wide trains per hour, running a single stopping pattern.

It would be ~15 minutes faster than the fastest train from London to Southampton and Exeter and absolutely crush the journey times on all other destinations.

 

[eldomtom2]

Construction of a self contained Shinkansen/Metro hybrid running London Waterloo-Clapham Junction-Gatwick Airport-Brighton-Littlehampton-Portsmouth-Southampton-Bournemouth-Dorchester-Exeter would be a good idea.
10+ 400m 3.38m wide trains per hour, running a single stopping pattern.

It would be ~15 minutes faster than the fastest train from London to Southampton and Exeter and absolutely crush the journey times on all other destinations.

Problem: how do you deal with the fact that large portions of the London commuter network are now going to require a lot more subsidy?

 

[12LDA28C]

Looks like the crayonista solution to my 'luxury tourist express' proposal is a fast London - Oxford - Bicester - Banbury - Stratford (and maybe continue to Birmingham) service. One train per hour is probably adequate and with that combination of destinations, reasonable loadings should be assured. You could sell a 'multiple stop' ticket so that the tourists could hit Oxford, return for their Bicester train, then Stratford train, etc. Decongest away all the belching diesel coaches from the streets.

Are you suggesting Chiltern should run that service? Why on earth would they run London to Oxford then return back to Bicester which they've already been through on the way to Oxford?

 

[D6130]

Are you suggesting Chiltern should run that service? Why on earth would they run London to Oxford then return back to Bicester which they've already been through on the way to Oxford?

Err....this is a thread for controversial railway opinions without a firm foundation in logic. Therefore I would suggest that this idea is eminently suitable and very much on-topic! (See also @DynamicSpirit 's post #1,094)

 

[12LDA28C]

Err....this is a thread for controversial railway opinions without a firm foundation in logic. Therefore I would suggest that this idea is eminently suitable and very much on-topic! (See also @DynamicSpirit 's post #1,094)

I'd say there's a difference between 'controversial' and 'nonsensical' but I take your point.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This route has been the subject of a number of initiatives over the years. Traditionally it was Service no. 44 jointly run by City of Oxford and Stratford Blue, 4 times per day. In more recent times it was the X50, in the mid 90's for a short period an hourly service Oxford-Stratford-Birmingham, then replaced by a two hourly Oxford Tube service between Oxford and Stratford. Both economic basket cases then reduced to 3 times per day. Then the two bus services (Oxford-Chipping Norton and Shipston on Stour-Stratford) joined together on an hourly service. This didn't work financially either; the Chipping Norton-Shipston section being very green fields and not many passengers. About 2004 the two services split with the Chipping Norton-Shipston section eventually back to the same frequency as the 44!

I rather suspect that there are not many people prepared to spend upwards of two hours each way on a service bus, and a limited stop coach service simply doesn't get enough revenue day in-day out because the parallel local buses take a share of the intermediate trade.

Maybe not, I wasn't aware of the previous through service trials (before my time!).
Perhaps limited extensions of the Oxford Tube if marketed heavily would be the better option.

 

[RT4038]

I'd say there's a difference between 'controversial' and 'nonsensical' but I take your point.

I guess nonsensical would cover the 'without firm foundation in logic', whereas plain controversial would be those with a firm foundation in logic?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I guess nonsensical would cover the 'without firm foundation in logic', whereas plain controversial would be those with a firm foundation in logic?

Interesting point. You could argue that anything that has a 'firm foundation in logic' shouldn't even be controversial (unless the assumptions you're putting into the logic are controversial, but then it's hardly a firm foundation). Maybe, questionable logic/assumptions = controversial, and no meaningful or sensible logic at all = nonsensical?

 

[Energy]

Reasonable loadings London - Banbury. Rather less so on to Stratford. Which is why Chiltern don‘t do it.

It should be easier to justifier if extending the London - Banbury and dropping the Leamington Spa - Stratford Upon Avon / Birmingham Moor Street. Warwickshire County Council has had this listed as an aspiration for a while.

However Lapworth would lose its connection to Leamington and Warwick, and they aren't particularly well connected by bus.

 

[HSTEd]

Problem: how do you deal with the fact that large portions of the London commuter network are now going to require a lot more subsidy?

Well their operating costs could be pared back by rationalisation in that case.

I think Gatwick Airport would not need sixteen trains an hour into London on the conventional line! Arguably you could axe most Victoria trains and even abandon the Redhill avoiders, but that would be rather aggressive.

No need for any fast trains on the Brighton Main Line, Arun Valley Line or the Portsmouth Direct Line

EDIT: Running the West Coastway as a metro would probably pick up a pile of traffic, although I doubt it would fully cover costs.

The bulk of the savings would be on the Brighton Main line I think. 4tph conventional from Gatwick North and South. Plus at least two Airport to Littlehampton and other miscellaneous bits

 

[popeter45]

Holyhead to Dublin should be a rail carrying service so a Direct London-Dublin/Belfast sleeper service could run

 

[AlastairFraser]

Holyhead to Dublin should be a rail carrying service so a Direct London-Dublin/Belfast sleeper service could run

I'm not sure about Dublin or Belfast service, but Larne could work if you ran a ship from Liverpool/Holyhead. The only issue is you'd need to order custom carriages from Talgo, and then modify a ship to carry them.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I'm not sure about Dublin or Belfast service, but Larne could work if you ran a ship from Liverpool/Holyhead. The only issue is you'd need to order custom carriages from Talgo, and then modify a ship to carry them.

Not to mention the gauge