convert day return to period return by excess fare

[allotments]

At a booking office in Wales I asked for an open return. The price was about right but on checking the ticket later when I was already in London I discovered I had been sold an anytime day return . I should have checked more carefully when handing over the money.

The ticket was future dated for later in the week.

At first it was an unusual challenge but with a little encouragement at Southeastern Woolwich Arsenal booking office 2 clerks worked together to resolve this successfully.

Options offered were a full refund and buy new ticket or pay an excess to convert.

The ticket was excessed and converted to open return for 85p.

I was half expecting a "we can't do that so you'll have to buy a new ticket and request a refund from Wales" response but instead received
excellent service and a straightforward on the spot solution ～ exactly what the customer wanted . Kudos！

 

[Haywain]

Well, you asked for an open return and were sold the only return ticket for that journey that doesn't have any time restrictions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, you asked for an open return and were sold the only return ticket for that journey that doesn't have any time restrictions.

While the term "open return" doesn't have a formal meaning, most people would not interpret it as meaning "day return" or would at least ask the question "are you coming back on the same day?" and offer two singles if not. Selling a day return when asked for that is not doing a very good job of ascertaining the customer's requirement.

 

[Qwerty133]

While the term "open return" doesn't have a formal meaning, most people would not interpret it as meaning "day return" or would at least ask the question "are you coming back on the same day?" and offer two singles if not. Selling a day return when asked for that is not doing a very good job of ascertaining the customer's requirement.

Furthermore given the off peak day return on the route in question has essentially the same time restriction as the period return there would be absolutely no justifacation in selling anytime day tickets on any train that the off peak return was valid on. Either the OP travelled at a time when the only period return on the route was not valid and therefore the booking office sold the only valid return ticket or the booking office would have failed to meet the requirement to offer the cheapest valid point to point fare even if their misunderstanding of the required journey was in fact true.

 

[Haywain]

While the term "open return" doesn't have a formal meaning, most people would not interpret it as meaning "day return" or would at least ask the question "are you coming back on the same day?" and offer two singles if not.

Yes, most people. You might equally wonder about people who want a period return not asking for one.

Furthermore given the off peak day return on the route in question has essentially the same time restriction as the period return there would be absolutely no justifacation in selling anytime day tickets on any train that the off peak return was valid on.

It wasn't sold on the day of travel, and 'open' was requested - why would you automatically think 'Off Peak'?
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For those in doubt, I am simply saying there seems to be some shared blame in this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, most people. You might equally wonder about people who want a period return not asking for one.

I have only ever heard the term "open return" being the opposite of "day return", i.e. synonymous with "period return".

I would suggest a member of ticket office staff issuing a day return in reply to that request without even asking the question "are you coming back the same day?" is one of the many lazy or borderline incompetent ticket office staff who give the grade a bad name and justify closures.

For those in doubt, I am simply saying there seems to be some shared blame in this.

I don't agree. It is the job of a professional member of booking office staff to ascertain the customer's requirements (based potentially on an incomplete request, as is the case here) and issue a ticket or tickets that fulfil that requirement. That's literally the only point in a booking office in 2021. If it can't even do that it should be closed. A TVM does the job perfectly well for anyone who knows what they want already.

Only if a "day return" was asked for (or the member of staff knows for certain it's a very short journey where you'd never sell a period return, e.g. "return to Liverpool" being requested at a Merseyrail station) should one be issued without even asking the question.

 

[Haywain]

I have only ever heard the term "open return" being the opposite of "day return", i.e. synonymous with "period return".

I would suggest a member of ticket office staff issuing a day return in reply to that request without even asking the question "are you coming back the same day?" is one of the many lazy or borderline incompetent ticket office staff who give the grade a bad name and justify closures.



I don't agree. It is the job of a professional member of booking office staff to ascertain the customer's requirements (based potentially on an incomplete request, as is the case here) and issue a ticket or tickets that fulfil that requirement. That's literally the only point in a booking office in 2021. If it can't even do that it should be closed. A TVM does the job perfectly well for anyone who knows what they want already.

Only if a "day return" was asked for (or the member of staff knows for certain it's a very short journey where you'd never sell a period return, e.g. "return to Liverpool" being requested at a Merseyrail station) should one be issued without even asking the question.

Fine, that’s your opinion. But customers can be clearer about what they want and check what they get.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fine, that’s your opinion. But customers can be clearer about what they want and check what they get.

Certainly "check your change as mistakes cannot (normally) be rectified afterwards" - but really I would expect better.

 

[Haywain]

Certainly "check your change as mistakes cannot (normally) be rectified afterwards" - but really I would expect better.

As a customer, I tend to take the view that it’s best to be as clear as possible about what I want to buy. It was exactly that a couple of weeks ago that helped me avoid buying the wrong ticket for a journey I was making. There is no doubt that questions help but it really isn’t a one way street.

 

[allotments]

The booking office in Wales should have asked enough questions to clarify which of anytime/off-peak day/period open return was required. That didn't happen.

I should have checked the ticket more carefully before leaving because I know enough to do better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2021 ==

I have only ever heard the term "open return" being the opposite of "day return", i.e. synonymous with "period return".

I would suggest a member of ticket office staff issuing a day return in reply to that request without even asking the question "are you coming back the same day?" is one of the many lazy or borderline incompetent ticket office staff who give the grade a bad name and justify closures.



I don't agree. It is the job of a professional member of booking office staff to ascertain the customer's requirements (based potentially on an incomplete request, as is the case here) and issue a ticket or tickets that fulfil that requirement. That's literally the only point in a booking office in 2021. If it can't even do that it should be closed. A TVM does the job perfectly well for anyone who knows what they want already.

Only if a "day return" was asked for (or the member of staff knows for certain it's a very short journey where you'd never sell a period return, e.g. "return to Liverpool" being requested at a Merseyrail station) should one be issued without even asking the question.

100% agree

 

[yorkie]

This confusion crops up regularly; here is my post from 3 months ago:

The problem is that there is no universally accepted meaning of the term "Open return" any more.

It used to refer to a specific product, valid on any train (without restriction) for a month. These fares were actually called Open Returns until 2008.

Colloquially the term appears to be typically now used to refer to a fare which can be used to return within a month, but can be subject to peak restrictions, such as an Off Peak Return.

But when Trainline came along, they used the term to mean any fare that was not fixed on the Return portion; even a Super Off Peak Day Return would count.

For about 9 years or so they actually used this term while the specific product if the same same name existed but in 2008 the Open fares were renamed Anytime to reduce confusion.

But the confusion remains to this day; most people think this terminology means they can return within a month....

And two years ago:

The term "open" can have multiple meanings (it used to be the name of a specific product under British Rail but Trainline gave it a completely different meaning); in this case I assume the meaning you are referring to is a fare which is valid to return a different day (aka a "period return") which isn't the meaning BR or Trainline used to use, but is a meaning I hear from time to time.

And a year before that:

The term "open return" is best avoided now.

This used to be the name of a ticket type (First Open Return and Standard Open Return) which existed until 2008, indeed this product still exists today, but is called an Anytime Return. The codes FOR and SOR remain in use. This ticket type used to indicate that there were no break of journey or time restrictions

On Track Retail booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return within one month" and won't return any results if the only return fares available are day returns. Tickets that prohibit break of journey or have time restrictions are included in these results.

Trainline booking sites use the term "open return" to mean "any ticket that is valid to return on more than one train", including returns that are only valid to return the same day, and returns that have hefty restrictions, which really casts doubts on whether the term "open" is appropriate in this context.

So, with no common definition of the term "open", it has effectively become a meaningless term, and when anyone uses that, you have to use context to attempt to figure out which of the above meanings they have in mind, or perhaps they have their own, completely different meaning in mind, who knows...!

It's great to hear you got the excess to the fare you wanted though

 

[Sleepy]

Trainline list a Wymondham - Gt. Yarmouth ticket as open return !! It's in fact same day return which causes issues to the unfamiliar passenger - not acceptable.

 

[yorkie]

Trainline list a Wymondham - Gt. Yarmouth ticket as open return !! It's in fact same day return which causes issues to the unfamiliar passenger - not acceptable.

Yep we had a thread on that:

Problems with trainline: "open return" fares only being valid for one day

Just wondered if anyone has had issues with this. Seems to be a glitch in the trainline app that is marking valid tickets as expired and stopping people being able to access them. Apologies if I haven't explained this very well. 1621872197 Rewritten this, as it was hard to understand...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[30907]

Curiously, BRFares doesn't give the fare of £25.60 - it gives £28.45!
Sorry, that's me - it's one of those fares that vary by direction. £25.60 starting at Slade Green, £28.45 from Foxton.

Anyway, I hope you have tweeted or mailed a compliment

 

[allotments]

Curiously, BRFares doesn't give the fare of £25.60 - it gives £28.45!
Sorry, that's me - it's one of those fares that vary by direction. £25.60 starting at Slade Green, £28.45 from Foxton.

Anyway, I hope you have tweeted or mailed a compliment

yes I wrote to Southeastern with praise for their handling of this

 

[voyagerdude220]

Trainline list a Wymondham - Gt. Yarmouth ticket as open return !! It's in fact same day return which causes issues to the unfamiliar passenger - not acceptable.

I (working in a ticket office) also have a similar problem with passengers asking me for open returns, when they're returning the same day, so I quote them for the relevant return within a month fare, only for them to either complain about how expensive the fare I'm quoting is, or say they can buy it for less online until I point out the differences between what they've been offered and what they've seen online.

 

[OldNick]

I would have made the effort to completely understand what day the customer was returning. Many customers drip feed information, others haven't even considered the possibility that a period return may or may not exist (if they only normally make local versus long distance journeys, for example), they might be new to the locality.

Not checking they were returning on a different day is probably asking for trouble, but then perhaps it's unusual on certain routes. Might have been a newish member of staff. You tend to learn common traps after a while with experience.

I was snapped at occasionally by customers saying things along the lines of "If I wanted to come back a different day I would have said that" / "I shouldn't need to give you my diary to buy a train ticket" / "Hurry up I'm late" etc

You just can't win sometimes.

 

[SickyNicky]

Presumably you were in London using the outbound portion of the ticket on the way to Foxton? And it was after the off-peak was valid?

If you wanted to travel outbound early in the morning, the only ticket you could buy would be the anytime day ticket. Allowing an excess without proof that the passenger has started their outbound journey at a valid time might be a bit of an anomaly.

 

[30907]

Presumably you were in London using the outbound portion of the ticket on the way to Foxton? And it was after the off-peak was valid?

If you wanted to travel outbound early in the morning, the only ticket you could buy would be the anytime day ticket. Allowing an excess without proof that the passenger has started their outbound journey at a valid time might be a bit of an anomaly.

In this case, being London&SE, the OP would not have been entitled to Senior Railcard discount before 0930; I think we can be fairly confident that booking clerks at Woolwich Arsenal would know that
This underlines the fact that the Anytime Day Return should not have been issued for that journey at that price (NRE recognises this).

 

[allotments]

Presumably you were in London using the outbound portion of the ticket on the way to Foxton? And it was after the off-peak was valid?

If you wanted to travel outbound early in the morning, the only ticket you could buy would be the anytime day ticket. Allowing an excess without proof that the passenger has started their outbound journey at a valid time might be a bit of an anomaly.

planned travel off peak both ways

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2021 ==

In this case, being London&SE, the OP would not have been entitled to Senior Railcard discount before 0930; I think we can be fairly confident that booking clerks at Woolwich Arsenal would know that
This underlines the fact that the Anytime Day Return should not have been issued for that journey at that price (NRE recognises this).

interesting... apps from Tfwrail and LNWR - so I guess this is widespread - sell senior railcard reduced off peak return tickets with specific itinerary departing Slade Green during morning peak time

looks like a programming issue

very confusing for customers who would expect to travel at that time with that ticket for the quoted price