Conwy Valley Line - Now Reopened

[gazthomas]

I suppose to be fair if you have to bustitute due to lack of stock the Valley is a good choice as a bus can pretty much keep time and demand is low.

Then why not close the line!

 

[AndrewE]

Then why not close the line!

Because people don't trust bus connections into rail journeys? Please tell us how delay repay copes with a totally failed rail journey because of an initial bus failure...

 

[gazthomas]

Because people don't trust bus connections into rail journeys? Please tell us how delay repay copes with a totally failed rail journey because of an initial bus failure...

Over the last 3 years which has been more reliable here, the train (closed often) or the bus? I am from Llandudno Junction so I have a great affinity for this line, but now its main reason for existing is gone (i.e. freight) it seems like a political reason to stay open. I love the line, I think it is beautiful, especially when it parallels the River Conwy and further south near Dolwyddelan but I'm paying so much in tax something has to give.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Over the last 3 years which has been more reliable here, the train (closed often) or the bus? I am from Llandudno Junction so I have a great affinity for this line, but now its main reason for existing is gone (i.e. freight) it seems like a political reason to stay open. I love the line, I think it is beautiful, especially when it parallels the River Conwy and further south near Dolwyddelan but I'm paying so much in tax something has to give.

Good to hear views from someone who is reasonably local to the line.

 

[6Gman]

Over the last 3 years which has been more reliable here, the train (closed often) or the bus? I am from Llandudno Junction so I have a great affinity for this line, but now its main reason for existing is gone (i.e. freight) it seems like a political reason to stay open. I love the line, I think it is beautiful, especially when it parallels the River Conwy and further south near Dolwyddelan but I'm paying so much in tax something has to give.

I went to school in the Junction and absolutely love the branch, but would be hard pressed to justify the money that's being spent to keep it open.

 

[gazthomas]

Sense prevails

 

[AndrewE]

I went to school in the Junction and absolutely love the branch, but would be hard pressed to justify the money that's being spent to keep it open

What do the residents of Blaenau think?
It's to do with the difference between a blinkered locally-accountable "Bottom line" and a national network where you know what you can expect even if you're not local.
Do you remember "This is a local shop for local people?"

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Because people don't trust bus connections into rail journeys? Please tell us how delay repay copes with a totally failed rail journey because of an initial bus failure...

Also in the current legislative framework having a rail link is a much firmer commitment to providing public transport in rural areas compared with bus services. In the 12 years or so I have been a regular traveller to Dolwyddelan not only has the X1 service come and pretty much gone, but also the mid-evening weekday bus service disappeared, both with little more than a shrug of the shoulders by the operators.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do you remember "This is a local shop for local people?"

In most towns, many of the former local shops that once existed, usually a family business, no longer exist. I speak as one of 72 years of age with a good memory of times long gone.

Many small businesses have found themselves being unable to trade profitably for various reasons and people should be aware that trading whilst insolvent is deemed an unlawful act under the terms of The Insolvency Act 1986, sections 214/238/239/244.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the 12 years or so I have been a regular traveller to Dolwyddelan not only has the X1 service come and pretty much gone, but also the mid-evening weekday bus service disappeared, both with little more than a shrug of the shoulders by the operators.

Would there have been a commercial reason behind those actions? Were loadings commercially viable?

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Would there have been a commercial reason behind those actions? Were loadings commercially viable?

My point is that, as things stand, rail operators cannot just shrug their shoulders and abandon a service they no longer wish to continue with.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My point is that, as things stand, rail operators cannot just shrug their shoulders and abandon a service they no longer wish to continue with.

I was making reference to the bus operators of the X1 service that you made reference to in your posting....not the rail operator.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is that, as things stand, rail operators cannot just shrug their shoulders and abandon a service they no longer wish to continue with.

Indeed, a closure is a DfT decision, not a TOC/Network Rail one. The default is essentially that if it's broken it gets fixed regardless of cost.

Personally, for all I love the line (it, and its Class 101 sets, being the destination of some of my youngest solo longish-distance rail trips), I can see an argument for truncating it at Betws and using the single unit to run a two hourly clockface timetable which would no doubt increase passenger numbers. Most of the problems happen in the more mountainous section south of Betws and it is also the section with very little demand. I posted a proposal for a workable timetable upthread somewhere a few weeks ago.

I find it difficult to make a case for full closure, because I would like to see, based around that 2-hourly frequency, a proper integrated bus network for the National Park (which would be much easier to do as there are far fewer roads than the Lakes/Peak) to progress towards getting cars out of the National Park. It might be a good test bed for a UK tourist tax including free public transport as the Swiss do - if the bus/train are "free" with your accommodation why not use them?

The other option would be to market it along the Swiss premium narrow gauge / Jacobite line.

 

[furnessvale]

Would there have been a commercial reason behind those actions? Were loadings commercially viable?

You mean as opposed to the commercial decisions made by the government every budget when it comes to motor vehicle taxation?

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

Most of the problems happen in the more mountainous section south of Betws ...

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. The two recent big problems - the Blaenau tunnel and the rock face near Pont-y-Pant - have indeed been south of Betws. The most frequent problem is flooding, which happens in, not surprisingly, the flood plain of the Conwy north of Betws.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, but work has been done there that has meant that mostly it just drains away.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You mean as opposed to the commercial decisions made by the government every budget when it comes to motor vehicle taxation?

It being a matter of a Welsh transport issue, I made no comment whatsoever of comparison with any WAG budgeting. My posting solely spoke of how matters were viewed by the bus operator of the X1 bus service that was made reference to by a website member.

I am sorry, but I see no connection whatsoever between the commercial viability of a bus service and any motor vehicle taxation.

 

[furnessvale]

I am sorry, but I see no connection whatsoever between the commercial viability of a bus service and any motor vehicle taxation.

My link may have been tenuous but your reply is amazing. You really cannot see a link between the commercial viability of a bus service and the fact that one of its major costs, road provision via taxation, has been frozen for 8 years despite general inflation? Just to complete the picture, bus fares have risen by an average of 33% in the same period.

 

[Chester1]

Busitution proposals would be more appealing if there was an act of parliament that created a framework that enabled the service level of replacement buses to be set in law by secondary legislation. Sort of similiar to Transport Works Acts for medium sized transport projects rather than planning permission or a full act of parliament. The hassle of obtaining parliamentary approval for new secondary legislation would kill most proposals to reduce bus services along the route. Also, if the DfT saves money through closing a line it should be expected to subsidise replacement bus services for a very long period of time rather than dumping the cost on the local council.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also, if the DfT saves money through closing a line it should be expected to subsidise replacement bus services for a very long period of time rather than dumping the cost on the local council.

But that diminishes the savings made by the DfT in the first place, surely.

 

[edwin_m]

But that diminishes the savings made by the DfT in the first place, surely.

It's not really fair if DfT can close a route and either the local authority has to stump up the cost of the replacement, or no replacement is provided, disadvantaging the local area. Really we ought to have certain parts of the public transport network (whether rail or bus) designated as strategic and centrally funded/guaranteed to ensure they continue to provide an appropriate level of service. This would be similar to what happens with trunk roads.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is a very easy way to ensure bus operation between Betws and Blaenau is guaranteed and fully integrated with a truncated train service - you specify and fund it as part of the rail franchise. Then the control of its destiny remains with the DfT, rather than the commercial mindset of a private operator or the rather uncertain funding promises of an overstretched local council.

 

[Chester1]

There is a very easy way to ensure bus operation between Betws and Blaenau is guaranteed and fully integrated with a truncated train service - you specify and fund it as part of the rail franchise. Then the control of its destiny remains with the DfT, rather than the commercial mindset of a private operator or the rather uncertain funding promises of an overstretched local council.

That would be easier to cut than my suggestion but could work. Either option could be used and the service should extend from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Porthmadoc too. On a separate note, I am strongly in favour of reopening the line from Bangor to Carnarvon. A simple single line terminating at a one platform station next to the Morrisons built on the old station site with an adhoc mix of long distance services and rail tours would be a better use of money if the bill to repair future damage on the Conwy valley line ever runs into £10s of millions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it is not impossible that we will see that reopened at some point. Thinking on, it could provide a useful circuit that would allow two hourly clockface on the Valley as used to happen - basically running as Caernarfon to Blaenau via the Junction. (A few trains per day from Llandudno itself outside the Takt are not exactly vital).

TBH, the nature of the Welsh public transport system to me would benefit (much more so than England) from a fully integrated approach involving long-distance bus services and rail services in a single timetable and fare system. The very bitty rail network means it doesn't do a great job for internal Welsh journeys at all (though it's fine for going to the relevant bit of England). So yes, that could involve lopping the Valley at Betws (or putting a second unit on and keeping the southern section, for that matter) but integrating a high quality coach service, which as mentioned could indeed continue past Blaenau to somewhere else.

I see huge potential in integrating a Swiss-standard Snowdon Sherpa network into a 2 hourly frequency service to Betws, as one example. And I mean properly integrating, not a scummy bus shelter round the back which is alleged to be platform 2.

IOW, exactly what the Germans or Swiss would do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other thing I think may be worthwhile with the Valley and similar lines is exploring the possibility of reducing cost by having a secondary light railway concept applicable to such lines, which would be half way between train and tram operation. You could use cheaper, lightweight rolling stock (possibly exploring options for power sources other than simple DMU), could use sprung points, train staff working (meaning no proper signalling, the staffs themselves could just live in a cupboard to which the driver or guard holds a key) and retain level crossings but remove barriers, and work on the assumption that the train crosses them at a speed at which it can stop in the distance the driver can see to be clear. Ticketing would be all on board paytrain-style.

 

[bigbadhenry]

Because people don't trust bus connections into rail journeys? Please tell us how delay repay copes with a totally failed rail journey because of an initial bus failure...

I often often use the X1 and have never had a problem with it. The IB to Portmadoc contacts with X1 but you would think not looking at the time table. It's far more reliable then an often closed branch line. I guess you think we have joined up rail network, far from it.

 

[TeaTrain]

I worked this line as guard on an almost daily basis for ATW. I would go out of my way to swap turns so I could be on the double. Always an old 150 but it could handle quite a bit. My reply is from my experience and truthfully I am bias as I enjoyed the people, the scenery, the journey and the conversations of how important a lifeline it was to many. I would be very disappointed if they closed the line permanently. My hope is that it stays open as long as possible.

I realise that the train doesn't always run. Especially in the winter time when there is severe flooding, but it really is a lifeline for many. There are many people who do not drive and when you work the early train up you realise how many commuters use the service. Not just to Betws either. Granted that is when it isn't flooded!

In the summer I would sell more tickets and make more money doing the line than going from Holyhead to Chester. During the summer it more than pays for itself.

If anyone has any questions or curious of anything I can do my best to answer. : )

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed, a closure is a DfT decision, not a TOC/Network Rail one. The default is essentially that if it's broken it gets fixed regardless of cost.

The Woodhead Line section from Hadfield towards Sheffield was closed to passengers in 1970 and to goods in 1981. It still remains a closed entity.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed, a closure is a DfT decision, not a TOC/Network Rail one. The default is essentially that if it's broken it gets fixed regardless of cost.

The Woodhead Line section from Hadfield towards Sheffield was closed to passengers in 1970 and to goods in 1981. It still remains a closed entity.

True but not relevant. The point at issue is whether a line would be closed if it suffered major damage, but Woodhead closed because BR decided to close it. Although I'm not sure if the predecessors of DfT would have had any involvement in closure of a freight-only line in BR days.

There are some historic examples of lines that were not planned to close, but did so, never to re-open, after severe damage. The Severn Bridge (hit by a ship) and the Clifton Hall Tunnel near Manchester (collapsed taking two houses and occupants with it) spring to mind. There were also some passenger lines in the Beeching era which closed earlier than the dates on their closure notices due to receiving damage that was either impossible to repair and re-open in the time available, or deemed not worthwhile to do so.

However I can't think of any recent example of either. BR tried to close the Radford to Trowell route when a MGR derailment destroyed Trowell Junction in the late 80s, but the junction was eventually re-laid and the line stayed open. I don't know if this was external pressure or because of the advent of Regional Express services which gained a useful time saving over going via Toton. The case of the Settle and Carlisle about the same time has some similarities, but in that case BR started closure proceedings because of expected future work to Ribblehead Viaduct and the condition of the stucture never led to a prolonged closure of the line. Was closure ever contemplated for the Cambrian Coast when Barmouth Viaduct was attacked by worms?

 

[turboslug]

West cheshire junction to mouldsworth was never on a closure list but just before privatisation west cheshire signal box burnt down. Trains at the time from stanlow were going more by road so be asked UK fertilisers could they sever their branch from west cheshire junction. They refused so the junction signalling had to be redone & controlled from helsby junction & they closed the mouldsworth line by taking points out & plain lining it.

Complete waste in my opinion as another diversion route gone, the mouldsworth line still found use for quite a few years as when the royal train was in the area it was known to stable down the branch as it was in a rural part of cheshire. It finally went when mouldsworth box closed & line lifted, the tracked is protected though & network rail has signs on bridges in case of bridge bash.

Ukf 1 year after refusing to have branch shut moved their traffic to road, the ukf branch is now back in use for sand delivery to glass factory. It was rumoured the box fire was to close junction & branch, if that happened after privatisation its closure would of been more difficult. Rock ferry to birkenhead docks is still open they even built a bridge where road underneath goes nowhere but it would need so much work it would cost a fortune to run anything over it. As the Conwy valley line i have worked the route plus travelled on a special to trawsfynydd & its a great line, when you go through the tunnel its like 2 different worlds. Does anyone know that when Cardiff box take over signalling of coast main line will llanrwst north box go as well