Conwy Valley service patterns

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the Conwy Valley timetable seeing as half of it is shut at the minute.

Interesting that the 0530 from the Junction to Betws takes 24 minutes. Potential for an hourly service with a single unit there (with a bit of skip stopping and the higher acceleration of a 230 or mechanical transmission CAF DMU) to compensate for the lack of connectivity if it ends up closed for a while? That would be a huge upgrade on the busiest part of the line (potential massive tourist revenue increase in summer) provided a way to serve the southern end properly could be found.

 

[Esker-pades]

The Conwy Valley unit tends to serve a dual purpose, which is serving the Conwy Valley and providing connections from Llandudno to the rest of the railway network. The reason the first 2 southbound services don't is that the 05:30 is purely a stock positioning move, and the 07:26 has the Llandudno shuttle but covered by a spare set before it works a service to Manchester. If one got rid of those additional Llandudno turns it would create gaps in the timetable (09:45 to 10:44, 11:44 to 14:08, 16:07 to 17:07 and 18:44 to 19:34) between Llandudno and Llandudno Junction. The reverse direction looks like this: 09:27 to 10:31, 11:38 to 14:04, 16:03 to 17:03, 18:36 to 19:04, and the earliest last train would be pushed forward to 21:08.

Thus, one would have to add the additional 10 minutes each way to Llandudno and back, at least some of the time. This would mess up the clockface part service, certainly over that lunchtime period.

Glan Conwy would have to be served, which adds 1 minute each way onto the timetable. That comes to 25 minutes only stopping at Glan Conwy, Tal-y-Cafn*, North Llanrwst, Llanrwst and Betws-y-Coed. 3 additional minutes for all the request stops. Add the 20 minute round trip to Llandudno, that gets timings to 35-38 minutes. In theory, one could then run a service every 1.5 hours. But, that would clash with the hourly (ish) Manchester services and give Llandudno-Llandudno Junction an uneven service level. Every 2 hours would probably be best.

*Tal-y-Cafn is only served southbound because the train has to stop at the platform to wait for authority to cross the level crossing just south of the station. It is a request stop in the northbound direction,

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you did every 2 hours Llandudno could also be included.

Is the Manchester service not clockface hourly? I thought it was.

 

[Esker-pades]

If you did every 2 hours Llandudno could also be included.

Is the Manchester service not clockface hourly? I thought it was.

It can be, but there are wierd bits where they run to Holyhead or Llandudno Junction or Bangor.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

In theory, one of the best uses of capacity would be to skip-stop.

A two-hourly service could be provided somewhat easily. See:
- Blaenau Ffestiniog two-hourly
- Roman Bridge once-daily each way (first one to Llandudno, last one back)
- Dolwyddelan four-hourly
- Pont-y-pant once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Betws-y-Coed two-hourly
- Llanwrst two-hourly
- North Llanwrst two-hourly
- Dolgarrog once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Tal-y-Cafn once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Glan Conwy four-hourly

You should be able to get journey times overall down to 52-53 minutes with improved acceleration and turnaround times. Through services to Llandudno would require another unit without any real benefit.

I did, however, write an interesting Simsig timetable. It used a Class 150 on a stopping Holyhead - Llandudno via Junction every 2 hours, and the journey time was 72 minutes. It required two units and provided an hourly service from Llandudno Junction - Llandudno (calling at Deganwy) and in tandem with an hourly Manchester - Llandudno gave an approximately half-hourly service between Junction and Llandudno.

 

[PHILIPE]

Carrying fresh air around at this time of the year. Who's going to bother about something like this when it might only be closed for a few days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did, however, write an interesting Simsig timetable. It used a Class 150 on a stopping Holyhead - Llandudno via Junction every 2 hours, and the journey time was 72 minutes. It required two units and provided an hourly service from Llandudno Junction - Llandudno (calling at Deganwy) and in tandem with an hourly Manchester - Llandudno gave an approximately half-hourly service between Junction and Llandudno.

Re "once daily" stops, those might as well close. There's no point having once-daily services. If they're pointless, get rid.

The pre-2000ish service interworked a Holyhead-Llandudno stopper with the Valley, and provided a more useful timetable (though not a clockface one).

Could an innovative approach to rolling stock (some kind of hybrid perhaps) provide the kind of EMU or even tram-style acceleration that might allow two-hourly without station closures? Could a 230 even do that? Class 150s and 153s are glacial.

 

[Esker-pades]

In theory, one of the best uses of capacity would be to skip-stop.

A two-hourly service could be provided somewhat easily. See:
- Blaenau Ffestiniog two-hourly
- Roman Bridge once-daily each way (first one to Llandudno, last one back)
- Dolwyddelan four-hourly
- Pont-y-pant once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Betws-y-Coed two-hourly
- Llanwrst two-hourly
- North Llanwrst two-hourly
- Dolgarrog once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Tal-y-Cafn once daily (as Roman Bridge)
- Glan Conwy four-hourly

You should be able to get journey times overall down to 52-53 minutes with improved acceleration and turnaround times. Through services to Llandudno would require another unit without any real benefit.

I did, however, write an interesting Simsig timetable. It used a Class 150 on a stopping Holyhead - Llandudno via Junction every 2 hours, and the journey time was 72 minutes. It required two units and provided an hourly service from Llandudno Junction - Llandudno (calling at Deganwy) and in tandem with an hourly Manchester - Llandudno gave an approximately half-hourly service between Junction and Llandudno.

Tal-y-Cafn has to be stopped at southbound anyway because of the crossing. Dolwyddelan and Glan Conwy are actually quite popular. Even in winter, Glan Conwy was being requested on every service.

It is perfectly possible to run a two-hourly service on the full route without skipping any request stops. Thus, skipping request stops is purely to make the service at these stops unnattractive and close them by stealth and not for any operational reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is perfectly possible to run a two-hourly service on the full route without skipping any request stops. Thus, skipping request stops is purely to make the service at these stops unnattractive and close them by stealth and not for any operational reasons.

Two-hourly was tried before but it was somewhat unpunctual - but a modern mechanical DMU would be much quicker off the mark than a Class 101.

A key benefit of going clockface is connections - in particular the bus connections to the rest of the national park from Betws, which could be so much more than they are - but with a bitty service are very difficult to do well.

 

[Esker-pades]

Two-hourly was tried before but it was somewhat unpunctual - but a modern mechanical DMU would be much quicker off the mark than a Class 101.

A key benefit of going clockface is connections - in particular the bus connections to the rest of the national park from Betws, which could be so much more than they are - but with a bitty service are very difficult to do well.

Two-hourly really requires two units to do properly. Even if the second unit is kept on Llandudno-Llandudno Junction shuttles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two-hourly really requires two units to do properly. Even if the second unit is kept on Llandudno-Llandudno Junction shuttles.

Better would be that the Liverpool-Llandudno service takes those over and does so clockface all day, removing the need for it. Non-clockface services (the Valley being but one of them) cause unnecessary complexity.

 

[DPWH]

How about electrification?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

How about electrification?

Electrification is for busy routes or those that demand it for other reasons (key freight corridor, metro). A rather quiet Branch in the valleys isn’t worth it.

 

[_toommm_]

How about electrification?

And it means that you'd only be able to have an extremely micro fleet for this service - you could run diesel services underneath the wires but the electric trains would be stuck on the Conwy Valley.

And how would the electric trains get back to a TMD? They'd have to be towed by another DMU or a loco unless mass electrification of North Wales happens in the 70 to 80 years left of my life...

 

[Kite159]

(In a world with no unit shortages) How about having Llandudno services all run as shuttles to/from Junction with a clockface half hourly service, and with the services from Manchester extended to Bangor (with some extended to Holyhead).

 

[_toommm_]

(In a world with no unit shortages) How about having Llandudno services all run as shuttles to/from Junction with a clockface half hourly service, and with the services from Manchester extended to Bangor (with some extended to Holyhead).

I suspect half hourly might be too much all day in terms of passenger numbers...

 

[Kite159]

I suspect half hourly might be too much all day in terms of passenger numbers...

662K estimated use isn't enough to warrant a half hourly service?

 

[_toommm_]

662K estimated use isn't enough to warrant a half hourly service?

Sorry, I think I may have misread your post. I was referring to Blaenau to Junction, but I fear you may have meant something else...

 

[Kite159]

Sorry, I think I may have misread your post. I was referring to Blaenau to Junction, but I fear you may have meant something else...

I got my wires crossed as I had Bangor in my head

Half hourly between Llandudno & Llandudno Junction, timetabled to connect with the trains to/from Chester.

The Conwy Valley service can be run from Llandudno to/from Blaenau, maybe with 2 units with one running Llandudno to Betws calling at all stations with the other service being a Llandudno - Blaenau service which skips Dolgarrog

 

[_toommm_]

I got my wires crossed as I had Bangor in my head

Half hourly between Llandudno & Llandudno Junction, timetabled to connect with the trains to/from Chester.

The Conwy Valley service can be run from Llandudno to/from Blaenau, maybe with 2 units with one running Llandudno to Betws calling at all stations with the other service being a Llandudno - Blaenau service which skips Dolgarrog

Agreed - definitely half hour Junction to Llandudno.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrification is for busy routes or those that demand it for other reasons (key freight corridor, metro). A rather quiet Branch in the valleys isn’t worth it.

It'd require investment which is somewhat of a dirty word, but I would like to see light rail type concepts trialled on lines like this, but it would probably need to be battery rather than OHLE. A lightweight battery LRV (something like a Metrolink tram or the new South Wales trams) would probably have the acceleration to a top speed of say 50mph to do two-hourly Junction-Blaenau with no skip-stopping. You could even make all stations request stops with bus style stop buttons as the Swiss do. Indeed, the Swiss narrow gauge concepts (apart from the actual narrow gauge) would seem to fit it quite well as it's quite similar to one of those lines.

How to charge it would be the question, though, you'd probably need two of them with longer layovers, in which case you might as well carry on running it through to Llandudno.

But I do really think there is a massive amount to be gained by getting it to clockface in terms of bus integration and reducing car dependency in the National Park. You can't base the Snowdon Sherpa network around a bitty about-every-three-hours-but-not-quite mess, but you could base it on 0.5tph on the branch plus a 0.5bph bus service complementing it (with similar running times) to Betws.

 

[53703]

Agreed - definitely half hour Junction to Llandudno.

Basically like St Ives to St Erth in Cornwall?

 

[_toommm_]

Basically like St Ives to St Erth in Cornwall?

Not all too familiar with the SW but if you say so...

 

[53703]

Not all too familiar with the SW but if you say so...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Ives_Bay_Line#Services

 

[krus_aragon]

(In a world with no unit shortages) How about having Llandudno services all run as shuttles to/from Junction with a clockface half hourly service, and with the services from Manchester extended to Bangor (with some extended to Holyhead).

Bear in mind that in a few years time (once TfW's Civitys arrive) the Manchester service will be running to Bangor, with Liverpool-Halton-Chester services extended to Llandudno. So that's 1tph between Llandudno and the Junction before you put the shuttle in. (It may be the case that the Liverpool-Llandudno services will have enough layover to shuttle back to the Junction, like most Manchester services do now.)

See also some discussion last month on future Conwy Valley services.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Bear in mind that in a few years time (once TfW's Civitys arrive) the Manchester service will be running to Bangor, with Liverpool-Halton-Chester services extended to Llandudno. So that's 1tph between Llandudno and the Junction before you put the shuttle in. (It may be the case that the Liverpool-Llandudno services will have enough layover to shuttle back to the Junction, like most Manchester services do now.)

See also some discussion last month on future Conwy Valley services.

Would it be possible to have 2 230's, one doing a dedicated Conwy Valley Line operation and the other the Llandudno shuttle?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it be possible to have 2 230's, one doing a dedicated Conwy Valley Line operation and the other the Llandudno shuttle?

If you were going to do that, you might as well run both together in some form in order to retain the through service and make it more resilient.

 

[krus_aragon]

And the 230 is only coming to the Conwy Valley until the Borderlands line goes half-hourly. In the long term it's planned to be operated by the same Civity stock as the other services along the coast.

In other words, if you want to keep 230s on the Conwy Valley, you'd need to order more of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the 230 is only coming to the Conwy Valley until the Borderlands line goes half-hourly.

In essence, I suspect, because it's an easy proving ground that if the unit sits down is easy to bustitute with little impact on anything. A bit like how the Matlock branch was always Derby's DMU proving ground.

 

[krus_aragon]

In essence, I suspect, because it's an easy proving ground that if the unit sits down is easy to bustitute with little impact on anything. A bit like how the Matlock branch was always Derby's DMU proving ground.

That's exactly why TfW's first 230 will enter service here.

I wonder if they'll also come to the Conwy Valley for their training/shakedown runs?