Coombe Junction reversal. Is it unique?

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect the Coombe Jcn reversal by all but two trains is unique in that there is a recognised station kind of begging to be stopped at IYSWIM just 30 seconds from the point of reversal. None of the examples mentioned replicate this bizarre feature.

There is barely any need for Coombe Jcn if you look at a map - which begs the question of why it's still open, really.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There is barely any need for Coombe Jcn if you look at a map - which begs the question of why it's still open, really.

But passenger numbers have quadrupled in the past year's ORR report!

Instead of (almost) one a week, it's now four per week ...... hmmm, yes, ok. See what you mean

 

[Deafdoggie]

Sensibly, it could be closed. But. if money were no object, relocating the station to the ground frame would be better!

 

[pdeaves]

I believe Newport (Isle of Wight) required a reversal in from the Freshwater line for at least some of its life.

Dorchester South used to be a terminus with through trains to Weymouth that required a double reversal.

 

[Essexman]

I went on Wrexham & Shropshire trains from Marylebone a couple of times that reversed near West Ruislip? (I think), not in station, then ran down the Greenford Line almost to Paddington, round the North London Line and up the WCML, when engineering works had closed the Chiltern Line. Wrexham & Shropshire made more effort than most to avoid bus replacements.

 

[Minilad]

So the voyager gets to Foxhall Junction, stops, driver jumps off to the other side of the train and then heads off? I can imagine the passengers wondering what on earth is happening

No need to jump off. Just walk through the train. Most guards announce the reversal so passengers are aware of the situation. It's a very quiet section anyway. Rarely more than 10 people aboard. Anyone going to Oxford from Reading has a train that leaves behind that arrives earlier

 

[andythebrave]

Many moons ago (well, 30 years or so) there were Liverpool and Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh services that did a "Carstairs" to the north of Preston. The returns, of course, did a "Carstairs" at Carstairs.

 

[bearhugger]

Battersby on the Middlesbrough - Whitby line has a resemblance to the Coombe Junction scenario but doesn't meet your criterion as I believe all services call at the station. Arguably the settlement wouldn't merit a station if it wasn't a reversal point, however!

In this context, Battersby is probably a sort of 'near miss', but since there were platforms there, and an open station anyway, it's kind of easier to work it this way than close the place.

All services do call there as Battersby has Token machines on the usable / working platform (Nunthorpe signal box and Glaisdale are the next token exchange points in either direction). A line used to carry on to Picton and then join the East Coast Main Line somewhere near Northallerton I beleive, but that has been lifted. There is also a passing loop that is mainly used by charters and North Yorkshire Moors Railway to run locos around. I have heard talk that there was consideration of putting in a chord to omit Battersby, but not sure how having the token exchange there would affect that desicion. Perhaps if the line is resignalled?

 

[Esker-pades]

There is barely any need for Coombe Jcn if you look at a map - which begs the question of why it's still open, really.

Because nobody likes closing stations. When built, it made sense as the train stopped there for a while anyway to allow for loco run-round. This isn't needed anymore, because the DMU can just switch directions in a couple of minutes, and much closer to the ground frame.

 

[mpthomson]

Speaking of reversals I was in Knaresborough on Saturday and saw at least three trains coming from the Leeds direction come to the station, then reverse back across the viaduct so the first car was still on it and then head back towards the station again. Is that just the terminating service getting into the right platform to start it's journey back or was something else going on?

 

[Esker-pades]

Speaking of reversals I was in Knaresborough on Saturday and saw at least three trains coming from the Leeds direction come to the station, then reverse back across the viaduct so the first car was still on it and then head back towards the station again. Is that just the terminating service getting into the right platform to start it's journey back or was something else going on?

The former.

 

[snowball]

When there were loco-hauled CrossCountry services with Glasgow and Edinburgh portions splitting/joining at Carstairs, an arrival from Edinburgh would sometimes be hauled out of the station towards Glasgow then propelled onto the back of the Glasgow portion in the other platform.

That used to happen regularly on trains I used in the 1970s.

 

[robertclark125]

Until the cowlairs choRd was opened in late 1989 cumbernauld to Glasgow queen Street trains had to reverse near eastfield depot.

 

[higthomas]

Passengers tend not to pay any attention to the running of the train, and are unlikely to notice. Especially if its dark outside

Not notice or ignore? I think most people would notice their train travelling in a different direction than it was omentd ago.

My GF caught that train at some point recently, and she did notice it and mention is to me. Annoyingly it's a PSUL move I intend to do which she accidently beat me to! (No, she didn't care about covering such unusual track.)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

One that almost happened many years ago but didn't ...

In the bad old days after Beeching (late 1960s and early 1970s), BR proposed closing the Shipley to Guiseley section of the Bradford FS - Ilkley line, which would have forced trains to reverse at Apperley Junction. BR also proposed discontinuing Bradford FS - Keighley trains. In the event they were persuaded to relent on both proposals and opened a new station at Baildon on the threatened section in 1973.

They also threatened to single the Calder Valley line about the same time. What a mistake that would have been.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I understand it, the reversal at Battersby can in theory be used as a crossing point on the "first in, last out" principle (disregarding the run-round loop as only one side has a platform). Could the Coombe Junction to Coombe Junction Halt section be used in the same way, or does the signalling/rule book not allow this. It's academic I know, as there's unlikely to be the demand, but it was something that occurred to me. Could be useful in the unlikely scenario of a major event being on in Looe I guess...

 

[30907]

Because nobody likes closing stations. When built, it made sense as the train stopped there for a while anyway to allow for loco run-round. This isn't needed anymore, because the DMU can just switch directions in a couple of minutes, and much closer to the ground frame.

To maintain main line connections the Looe branch timetable has, over the last 40-odd years, had some trains omitting all the halts and rather more omitting just Coombe Jn (because that saves a couple of minutes rather than 30 seconds) - at one time it seemed to vary from year to year.

 

[Esker-pades]

To maintain main line connections the Looe branch timetable has, over the last 40-odd years, had some trains omitting all the halts and rather more omitting just Coombe Jn (because that saves a couple of minutes rather than 30 seconds) - at one time it seemed to vary from year to year.

Currently it's only a couple per day that omit all the halts. I don't really have a problem with that, especially as none of them have a particularly high patronage.

 

[edwin_m]

As I understand it, the reversal at Battersby can in theory be used as a crossing point on the "first in, last out" principle (disregarding the run-round loop as only one side has a platform). Could the Coombe Junction to Coombe Junction Halt section be used in the same way, or does the signalling/rule book not allow this. It's academic I know, as there's unlikely to be the demand, but it was something that occurred to me. Could be useful in the unlikely scenario of a major event being on in Looe I guess...

It's possible to lock a train in at Moorswater, but not passenger-carrying as it has a trap point. A train beyond Coombe towards Looe is also locked in so another one is allowed to travel between Coombe and Liskeard.

I worked out how this all worked in about 2000 but can't now remember the details now. But I think both the token for the section to Liskeard and the staff for Looe have to be in the frame to allow the points to be reversed (towards Looe), so the train in the platform would have to be left tokenless for that to happen. That would be a gross violation of the rules on single line working.

 

[richw]

Slightly OT - and I suspect it has been asked before somewhere - but what IS the justification for not stopping all trains at Coombe Jcn Halt? I mean, does the time saved ( would it amount to 60 seconds?) count THAT much? And the fuel? (Immeasurable, one would imagine.) Off set by the increased revenues from a few (20? 40? 100?) extra passengers a year by doing so?

I've heard the branch is to get upgraded signalling at some point in the future, and once this happens it will create enough time (or signalling will require) all services to call at the station

But passenger numbers have quadrupled in the past year's ORR report!

Instead of (almost) one a week, it's now four per week ...... hmmm, yes, ok. See what you mean

The past years figures are distorted by the crowd finder event that took place, seeing 108 people squeeze into the 153. subtract 108 for a more relevant figure. It is also my local station, and I had 2 months of unemployment during that year so went for trips from Coombe Junction for the sake of it. I took around 15-20 journeys in that period. Just before I was made redundant I bought a 7 day season from Coombe Junction (although I started short at Liskeard every day, just for the sake of it!)

 

[PHILIPE]

When XC divert between Bristol TM and Cheltenham. they reverse at Newport but on occasions they reverse at Severn Tunnel but not in the station

 

[Esker-pades]

It's possible to lock a train in at Moorswater, but not passenger-carrying as it has a trap point. A train beyond Coombe towards Looe is also locked in so another one is allowed to travel between Coombe and Liskeard.

I worked out how this all worked in about 2000 but can't now remember the details now. But I think both the token for the section to Liskeard and the staff for Looe have to be in the frame to allow the points to be reversed (towards Looe), so the train in the platform would have to be left tokenless for that to happen. That would be a gross violation of the rules on single line working.

The tokens run from Liskeard to Coombe Junction, Coombe Junction to Looe and Coombe Junction to Moorswater. However, the points have to be left in the Liskeard direction. That means trains have to stop twice. Once to reverse and once to exchange tokens.
Trains come from Liskeard, stop just after the ground frame, switches the ground frame, shunts across, returns the points to the Liskeard direction, returns the Liskeard token, requests and gains the Looe token, then continues. If the train stops at Coombe Junction Halt, it is covered by the Liskeard to Coombe Junction token. So, it has to reverse at Coombe Junction, then return to a position just before the ground frame so that the points can be changed. The process then continues as normal.
Trains from Looe stop just before the ground frame, exchange tokens, switches the ground frame, shunts across the ground frame, re-sets the points towards Liskeard, the guard re-boards the train, then the train moves towards Liskeard. If the train stops at Coombe Junction, the train must continue after the guard has boarded to the station before reversing.
The driver is given permission to move during these shunts across the ground frame by the guard, who is acting as the signaller.

Observe this helpful diagram:
Green - Effective Limits of the Moorswater Token
Red - Effective Limits of the Looe Token
Blue - Effective Limits of the Liskeard Token

 

[Essexman]

That's interesting.
I used Coombe Junction when writing Remote Stations and got there in time to watch the Liskeard-bound train reverse but didn't understand the full procedure.
I wasn't the only passenger as another chap had got bored waiting at Liskeard so walked down the hill to Coombe Junction. Easier down than up.
I travelled to Causeland and wondered how many tickets are sold for that journey.

 

[randyrippley]

does anything passenger now reverse at Severn Tunnel Junction?

 

[Esker-pades]

That's interesting.
I used Coombe Junction when writing Remote Stations and got there in time to watch the Liskeard-bound train reverse but didn't understand the full procedure.
I wasn't the only passenger as another chap had got bored waiting at Liskeard so walked down the hill to Coombe Junction. Easier down than up.
I travelled to Causeland and wondered how many tickets are sold for that journey.

I did all the shacks over one day, but my weird ticket was Sandplace to St Keyne. I also got a Coombe Junction to St Budeaux Ferry Road single because I had quite a bit of time left in the day and thought a stop-off there would be fun.

It also gave me a couple of hours to sit at the Coombe House level crossing and observe the happenings.

 

[PHILIPE]

does anything passenger now reverse at Severn Tunnel Junction?

The services I've just quoted in #Post 51

 

[richw]

walked down the hill to Coombe Junction. Easier down than up.
I travelled to Causeland and wondered how many tickets are sold for that journey.

I’ve a coombe junction to sandplace return in my collection. I excessed the return leg to Liskeard.

 

[edwin_m]

The tokens run from Liskeard to Coombe Junction, Coombe Junction to Looe and Coombe Junction to Moorswater. However, the points have to be left in the Liskeard direction. That means trains have to stop twice. Once to reverse and once to exchange tokens.
Trains come from Liskeard, stop just after the ground frame, switches the ground frame, shunts across, returns the points to the Liskeard direction, returns the Liskeard token, requests and gains the Looe token, then continues. If the train stops at Coombe Junction Halt, it is covered by the Liskeard to Coombe Junction token. So, it has to reverse at Coombe Junction, then return to a position just before the ground frame so that the points can be changed. The process then continues as normal.
Trains from Looe stop just before the ground frame, exchange tokens, switches the ground frame, shunts across the ground frame, re-sets the points towards Liskeard, the guard re-boards the train, then the train moves towards Liskeard. If the train stops at Coombe Junction, the train must continue after the guard has boarded to the station before reversing.
The driver is given permission to move during these shunts across the ground frame by the guard, who is acting as the signaller.

Observe this helpful diagram:
Green - Effective Limits of the Moorswater Token
Red - Effective Limits of the Looe Token
Blue - Effective Limits of the Liskeard Token
View attachment 52182

That tallies with my recollection but I think I also recall that both tokens had to be placed in the ground frame before the points could be moved from the Liskeard setting, and the points had to be restored before either token could be removed.

 

[Esker-pades]

That tallies with my recollection but I think I also recall that both tokens had to be placed in the ground frame before the points could be moved from the Liskeard setting, and the points had to be restored before either token could be removed.

Yes, the points have to be restored before tokens can be removed. What happens exactly to the tokens I am estimating, as I didn't want to stare into the hut. But, the hut was only used at the points at which I stated.

 

[thenorthern]

Morecambe is a reversal as well but again its a normal station.

There are some strange zig-zag like track features on the Hisatu line in Japan but that's outside the United Kingdom.