Corby & East Midlands Main Line

[robonuk]

Following the introduction of the new East Midlands Trains timetable in December 2008, a lot of passengers have said the service has got worse for them. Intermitent stations such as Kettering & Wellingborough had their Intercity standard service taken away from them. Which basically means their is only 1 service an hour North of Kettering (mainline wise the other terminates at Corby)

EMT say the service has got better because trains are faster, however this is only if you live North of Kettering. If you live in Kettering or south then the trains are actually slower.

I beleive EMT should reinstall the MML (Midland MainLine) timetable and introduce an extra service. This would mean that Kettering, Wellingborough and southern stations would regain their 4 trains an hour accross the network. The additional service I talked about was introducing a new service from Corby - London St Pancras.

Network Rail re-installed the 3rd line between Kettering South Junction & Harrowden Junction (just north of Wellingborough) which basically means there are 3 minimum from Kettering to London St Pancras. Introducing a new service could put into use the 3rd line and increase passenger numbers and times from Corby. My idea was to introduce a Class 158 on the service because this would free up additional Class 222's for other routes where capacity is a problem. EMT 158's have been refurbished so they are up to a decent spec.

Please post any thoughts or further ideas.

 

[SWT Driver]

Wasn't the 3rd line reinstated for freight purposes, so to ensure that it doesn't get in the way of passenger services?

 

[MCR247]

158s arent long enough

 

[87015]

158s arent long enough

It is for Corby-Kettering to connect with the old 4tph Leicester-London pattern. I really don't think Corby needs a direct hourly London service, a few 'political' through peak hour workings and a shuttle would serve the rest of the MML users, in particular those from Luton/Bedford travelling north. Really don't know why two well used trains per hour were cut back to one. All my travel now has to be via Nuneaton as the connections out of Bedford-Bletchleys are truly dire.

 

[The Planner]

The slow lines north of Bedford arent quick enough for a passenger service with the stations spaced as they are. They are only 50mph and the headways along them are awful, you just wouldnt fit anything in between the freight.

 

[robonuk]

I'm not too sure on that one. I'd always beleived it was re-instated as a support line in case one of the stopping services would interupt the express services. I've seen Meridians & HST's use the line at peak times or when the express has been late it just allows it to pass without being stuck behind the stopping service.

In reply to the above Corby has to have an hourly service to London, as it was stated in the terms of the franchise when East Midlands Trains took over. A 158 would be long enough to cope with a service for Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - Bedford - London St Pancras. May miss Bedford out as this is where the over crowding occurs as EMT are much superior in speed to First Capital Connect.

 

[tbtc]

Intermitent stations such as Kettering & Wellingborough had their Intercity standard service taken away from them

Pre National Express they had a very random pattern stopping there.

National Express (MML) introduced a clockface stopping pattern half hourly with two car 170s (later extended to three car)

Stagecoach are now running Meridians to these station

Please tell me how this is a worsening of service on the main market to London?

 

[LondonLarry]

Given that the majority of their customers are travelling to and from London, the timetable satisfies the majority of their customers.

Unfortunately, every passenger wants a direct train from their station to their destination and wants it to run with as few stops as possible. You can't please everyone, but you try and accomodate them where you can.

 

[robonuk]

Its not that the trains themselves have actually got worse its the service that EMT are providing to Stations south of Leicester. EMT say that the service has got faster when in fact if you live south of Leicester then you have a worse service.

Like you previously said MML introduced a half hourly service both north and south. When they upgraded to the Meridians they kept this pattern with the average journey from Kettering (where i live) being around 57minutes. Now the average time from Kettering is 1 hour 10mins, how can the same rolling stock take an extra 13mins to London stopping at the same stations? Simple EMT have provided people from the likes of Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby & Leicester with faster services to London with people south of Leicster suffering for these people to have their faster servcie.

Also MML provided 2 northbound services an hour EMT now only provide 1 (this is north of Kettering / Corby), this causes problems for commuters waiting round for longer times and more over crowding on Northbound trains. So you can see if you lived in Kettering or Wellingborough the service has actually got worse, longer journey times, and less connections.

Hopefully some bright person in the Goverment will have the sense to bring back British Rail and get rid of the TOC's.

 

[gordonthemoron]

be careful what you wish for, BR only had 2 trains an hour between Leciester and London whereas EMT has 4

 

[Waddon]

Do the Corby services still all sit around at Kettering for ages before making their onward journey? I can't remember which service I was on (sometime around mid/late afternoon) but it sat at Kettering for around half an hour before proceding onwards. The other (2) passengers on board my carriage got off and said they were going to get the bus as it's quicker! They're not going to make the service a success with built-in delays like that

 

[robonuk]

Yes the Corby Services do still sit around for half an hour in Kettering. This is where I see half the problem for people not using the train to Corby Station. The train arrives in Kettering, and most people can be home any where in Corby before the train even departs Kettering.

This is where I think 158's & the old time table would come in better for passengers. 158s have a top speed of 90mph, the line top line speed is 110mph. You could feed a 158 onto the mainline down as far as Bedford and the transfer it onto the so called slower lines. This wouldn't have an impact on any other services. EMT haven't actually made the services from Sheffield any quicker by cutting stations out, they are actually faster because they use a 5 or 7 car Meridian rather than an HST, because of the superior acceleration the Meridians make the journey faster.

I did some thinking going by the old timetable at Kettering. The southbound services used to stop at Kettering at xx:28 and xx:59 with the express services passing around 6 - 7 minutes earlier. Going by this you could put a 158 Corby - London stopping service into the mix by say departing Kettering at xx:19, by the time a 158 had got down to Kettering South Junction the express would have passed and the 158 could then fly on down to London. The xx:28 Meridians would never really reach the full 110mph line speed between Kettering & Bedford so by the time the Meridian caught the 158 up, it would be on the slower lines through Bedford. In affect this service would only have to be Corby, Kettering & Wellingborough this would serve as a less crowded train for commuters from the 3 towns. I admit the journey time would still be on average 1hr 10mins because of the 90mph top speed, but it wouldn't sit around in Kettering for 30mins and EMT would get far more out of Corby.

 

[The Planner]

I did some thinking going by the old timetable at Kettering. The southbound services used to stop at Kettering at xx:28 and xx:59 with the express services passing around 6 - 7 minutes earlier. Going by this you could put a 158 Corby - London stopping service into the mix by say departing Kettering at xx:19, by the time a 158 had got down to Kettering South Junction the express would have passed and the 158 could then fly on down to London.

Cant see that working, the 158 would be too close to Kettering South and wouldnt be given the road as the express would be right behind it. The headway down there is 5 minutes, so the express would get pathed out if you put it behind the 158.

The xx:28 Meridians would never really reach the full 110mph line speed between Kettering & Bedford so by the time the Meridian caught the 158 up, it would be on the slower lines through Bedford.

They would easily hit 110mph. Id expect them to get to top speed between Kettering South and Harrowden to be honest.

 

[ashworth]

Even if a 158 was suitable for this route, which I don't think its is, where are EMT going to get them from?
There is still regular severe overcrowding on many Norwich-Liverpool trains and EMT do not have enough 158's to even regularly run these services as 4 car trains to ease the overcrowding. It has been made quite clear that there will be no additional stock to help this situation on the Norwich-Liverpool route for the forseeable future.

 

[SWT Driver]

Meridians are quick & so they should be with all of those engines & power!

 

[robonuk]

The original idea was to have say 4 class 158s on the main line and transfer 4 Meridians over to the Liverpool - Norwich route. Transfering 4 2 car 158s would mean 8 cars would be out of the Liverpool - Norwich route and 4 Meridians with a minimum of 4 cars each set would be placed on this route.

Could Network Rail not increase the line speed of the 3rd bi-directional line down to Bedford? Most of the frieght in the days transfers over to the mainlines at Harrowden junction so in the mainpart Harrowden - Kettering South isn't used. In fact most the the usings I've seen along it is passenger services during peak times, which means the Corby - London service goes down this line while the faster express services use the mainlines.

 

[MCR247]

But the 4 158s wouldnt have enough capacity. Look at the first reply

 

[robonuk]

what i had in mind the 158's would be long enough. The thought was to revert back to the old MML timetable, 2 meridians north & south an hour then an additional 158 service to London just calling at Corby, Kettering & Wellingborough and maybe even extending it to Melton Mowbray & Oakham to serve them with a Direct London Service. Most of the polls show that EMT has overcrowding from London St Pancras to Bedford as people prefer the EMT trains because of their faster journey times. If a 158 didn't call at Bedford or southern stations then the over crowding wouldn't occur and the 158 would provide enough capacity. Especially if the main Meridian Services were running say either 10mins in front or behing these 158 servcies.

 

[asylumxl]

But the 4 158s wouldnt have enough capacity. Look at the first reply

Agreed.

You've posted this is in another thread too. The simple fact is the 158s won't work. The southern part of the MML has it's own over-crowding problems. EMT will have to do with the current set-up, and it's not really their fault, it's the DfT.

 

[The Planner]

Could Network Rail not increase the line speed of the 3rd bi-directional line down to Bedford?

Probably not, the signalling down there isnt spectacular at best and between Harrowden and Sharnbrook you are on a 13 minute headway in the down direction. You would need to re-signal it first and that is mucho spondo....

 

[Kneedown]

But the 4 158s wouldnt have enough capacity. Look at the first reply

A 158 is overkill for a service shuttling between Corby and Kettering!
A single 153 shuttling between the two is all that is required.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Even if a 158 was suitable for this route, which I don't think its is, where are EMT going to get them from?
There is still regular severe overcrowding on many Norwich-Liverpool trains and EMT do not have enough 158's to even regularly run these services as 4 car trains to ease the overcrowding. It has been made quite clear that there will be no additional stock to help this situation on the Norwich-Liverpool route for the forseeable future.

Simple answer.
Single 158, or more suitably a 153, shuttling between Kettering and Corby. Release 222's to Liv-Nor.
Seeemple's!

 

[robonuk]

A shuttle service is out of the question.

East Midlands Trains have to operate an hourly service to London St Pancras from Corby Station, as this was a requirement of who ever took the franchise on from Midland MainLine. Effectivly if they only run a shuttle service then they are in breach of the franchise contract.

Thanks for the info on the signaling issue, interesting to know this.

Maybe a simple fix to the Corby problem is to change the services round. The xx:00 service goes to Corby and the xx:30 service goes to Derby. Maybe if these are switched so the xx:00 goes to Derby and the xx:30 goes to Corby this would solve the problem with Passengers not using Corby station, because it would cut out the 30mins the train sits in Corby. The southbound from Corby departs Kettering at xx:26 (some times vary) and the north currentley arrives at about xx:01. So if the northbound service arrived at xx:31 then there would be no dwelling and the trains would pass just after Kettering South Junction on the mainline? Obviously it wouldn't go as far as sorting over crowding but I beleive 222 103 is due to re-enter service soon, so there is another 4 cars that can hitch onto another Meridian to help with this? Any thoughts on this??

 

[williamn]

What's the point of running an hourly service when so many of the trains sit at Kettering for 30 mins?

 

[johnb]

@williamn doesn't that change with the next timetable change?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Point 1, the EMT timetable does not show the through Corby-London services stopping at Kettering for more than a couple of minutes

Point 2, EMT must already be in breach of there franchise commitment because at certain times during the day, the Corby train already operates as a shuttle to Kettering & back

 

[robonuk]

The shuttle service operates during the morning peak and late at night, but due to London St Pancras having only 4 domestic platforms running more services at peak times is hard to do. But late at night the Meridian runs Corby - Kettering because there is not much call for London Bound services at night time, infact I beleive the last train to even leave Leicester to London is 22:00 calling at Kettering at 22:23.

With regards to the trains sitting in Kettering this is mostly on the Northbound services operating London - Corby. But this is still where passengers get annyed with the service why sit in Kettering for 1/2 hour when Corby is a 10 minute drive away.

If the infrastructure is used properly EMT could operate a brilliant service from Corby. Interesting point saw on "youtube" the trains shuttle along to the loops just past Corby Station to get ready for the return to London. The Northbound train could arrive in Corby and use the 2nd loop whilst the Southbound train is sitting in the 1st one. Then the southbound make the short trip to the station and hey presto its done. EMT & NR planners need to use the infrastructure a lot better than they currently do.

 

[MCR247]

But does it need a second service? Is there enough stock? Think about it

 

[Tomnick]

The 'loops' north of Corby station are the running lines to and from Manton, so standing trains on them for an hour or so would probably be unacceptable (I don't know if there's a signalled move to the Up line anyway, and if there is, it won't be signalled to passenger standards - the signal controlling any such move is to the south of the station, I believe). Indeed, I believe that the only reason they have to run north onto the Down Main, is that the signalling currently doesn't allow them to reverse in the platform - the extended Kettering stop looks rather like a bodge to allow for this in the short-term, without occupying the single line continuously all day and preventing anything else from running over it!

The Up services have the extended stop at Kettering in the afternoon/evening (when they're running 'against' the peak traffic); likewise, the Down services do it in the morning.

 

[The Planner]

No they're not, the Corby services go into the run round loop at the north of the station. They dont go anywhere near the section to Manton.
As for EMT and NR using the infrastructure better, unless EMT want to run more trains up there, then what happens is fine.

 

[Tomnick]

Ta for the correction - never one to assume, but I did there. In any case, having a second unit at Corby ready to work an Up service sounds unnecessary - it certainly isn't a better use of the resources (units and crews) available.