Corby & East Midlands Main Line

[robonuk]

Yes and this would be fair on passengers south of Leicester wouldn't it? NOT! We already have to suffer from a worse connection North and come to think of it south, so the likes of Leciester, Sheffeild & Nottingham can enjoy faster trains.

First Captial Connect services are never going to run North of Bedford simply because there is not overhead wiring. Plus when the Intercity 225 was introduced there were plans to put overheads in on the MML but it was found it would cost too much, because of bridges, tunnels etc not being suitable for putting overhead equipment in.

Last thing your bright ideas of running First Captial Connect to all stations south of Leicester, what happens if I want to go to Nottingham? I have to travel all the way down to London to change to an EMT to Nottingham? EMT are just going to have to sort the Corby line out! non stop services from Leicester to London are better for time. The biggest problem is the idiots that did the surveys and plans for St Pancras!!

 

[gordonthemoron]

It would be a resasonable idea to extend FCC to Corby and for EMT trains to run non-stop from Kettering to St.P. That way Kettering would get more services, north and south

 

[tbtc]

Yes and this would be fair on passengers south of Leicester wouldn't it? NOT! We already have to suffer from a worse connection North and come to think of it south, so the likes of Leciester, Sheffeild & Nottingham can enjoy faster trains

You'd have a more frequent service to London (given that the Thameslink will have 24 tph at peak times, whilst the "Overground" platforms would struggle with that over a four hour period), which is the main market for those stations

Last thing your bright ideas of running First Captial Connect to all stations south of Leicester, what happens if I want to go to Nottingham? I have to travel all the way down to London to change to an EMT to Nottingham? EMT are just going to have to sort the Corby line out! non stop services from Leicester to London are better for time. The biggest problem is the idiots that did the surveys and plans for St Pancras!!

Erm, you'd change at Leicester

Put it this way, it'd be a lot simpler, quicker and cheaper to wire the MML from Bedford to Leicester than it would to do the whole line. Whilst Bedford's Thameslink frequency will increase from the current 4 tph, four an hour north of Bedford (splitting to give two an hour to Corby/ Leicester) would be a much better use of resources, and allow connections at Leicester.

Complaints about the Corby improvements just go to show that some people are never happy

 

[WillPS]

I havent looked at the passenger figures recently but the Robin Hood Line was always quoted as the horribly underperforming reopening so I doubt anyone would want to run more trains.

I don't know - seems pretty well loaded and is often full & standing in the morning and evening peaks.

Yes and this would be fair on passengers south of Leicester wouldn't it? NOT! We already have to suffer from a worse connection North and come to think of it south, so the likes of Leciester, Sheffeild & Nottingham can enjoy faster trains.

First Captial Connect services are never going to run North of Bedford simply because there is not overhead wiring. Plus when the Intercity 225 was introduced there were plans to put overheads in on the MML but it was found it would cost too much, because of bridges, tunnels etc not being suitable for putting overhead equipment in.

Last thing your bright ideas of running First Captial Connect to all stations south of Leicester, what happens if I want to go to Nottingham? I have to travel all the way down to London to change to an EMT to Nottingham? EMT are just going to have to sort the Corby line out! non stop services from Leicester to London are better for time. The biggest problem is the idiots that did the surveys and plans for St Pancras!!

Why not new-build some Turbostars for FCC, is that beyond the realms of possibility?
My belief is that the 3 big mainlines should have operators serving, primarily, those at the middle to far end of their franchise. Virgin already do this on the WCML (with 'local' journeys mainly the responsibility of London Midland), and NXEC do as well with the ECML (with FCC running local services). It's weird that the MML is expected to live a double life where it must run for two different markets with different needs. As an aside, this is why I find it weird that the MML has been lumped in with a load of local services out of Nottingham/Derby and a cross country route.

 

[gordonthemoron]

presumably diesel trains would not be allowed in the thameslink tunnels

 

[Kneedown]

Put it this way, it'd be a lot simpler, quicker and cheaper to wire the MML from Bedford to Leicester than it would to do the whole line.

What would be the point of just wiring to Leicester?
The whole line should be done, and it's the northern part of the line that would be the key to all future electrification in this country. Electrify the entire MML and pretty much everything else is just infill. Sprinters are going to be life expired in 10 or so years, lots of them are now! I don't think we're going to see any more massive investment in diesels, so electrification is the ONLY answer (forget all this talk about hydrogen power - thats years away)
A wholly electrified MML will provide the final big step to electrifying across the country. For example:- If the few short miles of the Matlock branch was done, then the line could be extended and wired up to Hazel Grove thus providing another electrified route to Manchester. A few more pennies spent and the wires could extend from Nott's to Lincoln and Worksop, and also Derby to Stoke, thus enabling the retirement of most of the Sprinters in the East Midlands to be replaced by EMU's. 4 and 5car 222's displaced by leccies on the mainline could then replace 158's on the Liverpool - Norwich's (also alleviating overcrowding) The 158's would in turn Cascade to the Skeggy line.
At the minute the elctrification of the East Midlands network seems like a pipe dream, but if the MML were to be done, then the idea becomes plausible, in fact it would be daft not to!
That is just a rough example of how it could work in my area, but it would be a similar effect pretty much everywhere.

 

[daccer]

The whole Corby development does leave me a little perplexed. The stations cost a fortune and is a bit of an overkill considering it is 3-4 miles to Kettering which had an excellent half hourly service. Building the station in Corby has therefore saved the good people of Corby the strenuous ten minute drive into Kettering. Considering that all the Corby services go South (apart from one i think to Melton) you are actually not really saving any time at all as the drive to Kettering just mirrors the route the train takes.

To make proper use of the stations and to give a meaningful service an upgrade of the Manton line would be needed with a circular local service linking Oakham, Melton, Leicester and Kettering with Corby being possible. This would then allow some of the smaller stations on the MML to possibly be re-opened - Desbourough and Kibworth spring to mind. At the moment the whole Corby exercise seems to be a bit of a fop to local political interests - it would be very interesting to see what the usage figures are for Corby and to see if they justify such a large investment.

 

[tbtc]

What would be the point of just wiring to Leicester?

I take your point about rolling electrification, and I want them to wire the MML, but realistically that's a decade away (at least) before the whole thing is done. Whereas the Bedford - Corby/ Leicester stretch could be wired up much much sooner, which then gives an impetus for the rest of the MML later on.

No point running before we can walk

 

[whoosh]

Personally I would double the line between Kettering and Corby, put a new chord in at Manton, and run trains Peterborough - Stamford - Corby - Kettering - Wellingborough - Bedford - Bletchley - and continuing to Oxford. With an option to start trains back at Cambridge.
A new cross country route with minimal new track, and Corby would have links to the North (including Glasgow, where many of it's citizens come from originally) by changing trains at Peterborough.

I'll keep dreaming though.

 

[The Planner]

That would take for ever though. I bet it would be quicker to do it via London. The chord and re-doubling has already been looked at, fell flat on its backside with a minimal CBR.

 

[Kneedown]

I take your point about rolling electrification, and I want them to wire the MML, but realistically that's a decade away (at least) before the whole thing is done. Whereas the Bedford - Corby/ Leicester stretch could be wired up much much sooner, which then gives an impetus for the rest of the MML later on.

No point running before we can walk

The thing is though, what advantage would be gained by just wiring to Leicester? All you would be doing is swapping EMT HST's/222's that provide a half decent standard of catering, for FCC 319/Electrostars/Whatever they end up with, with little if any catering facilities. The good people of Mkt Harboro, Kettering and Wellingboro would hardly be over the moon with that. They are already upset over the last timetable change. Many of the Luton and Bedford passengers choose to travel on EMT trains rather than FCC so would hardly be a welcome move.
Wiring up the entire MML can hardly be described as a rolling programme. The point i was making was that once it was done, it would plug one helluva big gap in the system that would make many infill schemes cost effective, but if you only go as far as Leicester the whole thing falls flat, and to honest it would be a pointless excercise. It would be like the GWML electrification stopping at Reading or Swindon.

 

[robonuk]

The MML can't be wired much more north than Kettering, as the infrastructure will not support it. i.e Bridges, Tunnels. BR did look at overhear wires back in the 80's but to wire it would mean major work up the line, with Bridges, tunnels and line side space being altered.

This is why BR only electrified as far north as Bedford.

 

[Urobach]

....or Kettering and Corby!

Oh wait, that ruins your master plan doesn't it

 

[robonuk]

....or Kettering and Corby!

Oh wait, that ruins your master plan doesn't it

Is this aimed at me URobach?? I've never had a plan to use electrifiaction on the line. My master plan was to use DMU's.

 

[Kneedown]

The MML can't be wired much more north than Kettering, as the infrastructure will not support it. i.e Bridges, Tunnels. BR did look at overhear wires back in the 80's but to wire it would mean major work up the line, with Bridges, tunnels and line side space being altered.

This is why BR only electrified as far north as Bedford.

There's no such thing as "Can't"
I was always under the impression that the reason the wires stopped at Bedford was due to Tory cutbacks, not testing engineering challenges.
If i remember rightly, previous business cases for electrification have concluded that the financial benefits are infinite, so there is really no excuse not to. The only testing bits are the Station bridges at Leicester and Nottingham, and all they have to do is dig down a little rather than raise a bridge with buildings on it.

 

[robonuk]

Thats interesting to know. I did read something years ago and speak to a BR workman and they both said it couldn't be done.

So maybe the real truth is that it can be done, but because they'd have to work that little bit harder they decided not to do it. Network Rail seem to be getting on with jobs, maybe slowly but they are making strides into doing things companies in the past couldn't be bothered doing.

I know the EMT/MML as a rule is currently undergoing a major upgrade up and down the route in conjuction with EMT & NR. I think the goal is to acheive 110mph or faster for much of the route an allow more HST's / 222's accross the whole East Midlands Network. Maybe Network Rail would look again at installing the Overheads??

 

[Kneedown]

Thats interesting to know. I did read something years ago and speak to a BR workman and they both said it couldn't be done.

So maybe the real truth is that it can be done, but because they'd have to work that little bit harder they decided not to do it. Network Rail seem to be getting on with jobs, maybe slowly but they are making strides into doing things companies in the past couldn't be bothered doing.

I know the EMT/MML as a rule is currently undergoing a major upgrade up and down the route in conjuction with EMT & NR. I think the goal is to acheive 110mph or faster for much of the route an allow more HST's / 222's accross the whole East Midlands Network. Maybe Network Rail would look again at installing the Overheads??

Although i must confess to not knowing the lowest height that OHLE can pass through, i imagine it is lower than many people would think. I would imagine the main factors are the minimum pantograph height, and the actual shape of the bridge/tunnel rather than the height, for example if the bridge is low enough for wires to actually pass through, but is of such a shape that there is potential for the pantograph to collide with it.
Many bridges are being replaced as part of the GWML electrification project so it is obviously a cost effective way. I work trains through all tunnels on the MML and i don't for a minute foresee any clearance problems through any of them as there certainly appears to be a more than adequate height, although Toadmoor tunnel at Ambergate is an unusual shape, and Clay Cross tunnel appears to have a "bulge" coming from the roof at it's northern end which may be a factor.
The big problems will be at Leicester and Nottingham which have low bridges with the main (grade 2 listed) station buildings and a main road built on top of them. The bridge portals are straight across (as opposed to curved) so pantograph fouling wouldn't be an issue. It would just rest on the minimum pantograph height, and if high voltage wires could pass through without arcing or causing problems. The answer would be to lower the trackbed, and maybe platform edges as a result, which would be a much simpler, convenient and cheaper option than raising the bridges, which would i agree be a monumental task!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time when 25Kv wires passed through some low structures the section of the wire actually passing under the structure was only energised at 6.25Kv to prevent arcing? Perhaps this is an approach that could be readopted?

If someone with the relevant factual knowledge reads this then maybe they could give us their expert opinion.

 

[robonuk]

Does anyone know the passenger number for Corby now Network Rail have installed a new signalling system between Kettering & Corby?

The Meridians no longer have to wait around in Kettering for 30 mins instead stop at Kettering and go straight through, bar the occasional service in peak periods. I'd imagine it had got a lot better as EMT have also revised the timetables slightly