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Coronavirus.

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NoMorePacers

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Might as well ask this here.

Would it be safe/wise to go on the rail journeys I have planned for this Saturday and next Saturday? (just for a ride - nothing more)

Just that I don’t really know what’s right to do and what isn’t.
 
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Ianno87

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Regarding the elderly etc the "advantage" of that is that they are best placed to isolate (because of the lack of economic impact) and many just stay at home anyway. So this may not be hard to achieve.

Suspend ENCTS for a few weeks if necessary... Not stopping travel entirely, just dis-incentivising it (via payment)

EDIT: Of course, with care not to isolate the most vulnerable pensioners or those with disabilities who may still need to access employment, etc.

My point, which I should have just said rather than try to be humorous, is that I don't think that is the main/sole reason for the spread of the virus in the Mediterranean countries. There must be more to it than that.

In the UK hugging / kissing a close (non-professional) acquaintance as a greeting isn't exactly unheard of....

But yes, is fascinating to understand why Italy specifically..... No doubt many factors at play (far beyond cultural no doubt).
 
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Meerkat

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That is not a racial stereotype, it's an observation of usual practice between countries. It is usual practice in Romance countries to greet with a hug and kisses, whereas in Germanic countries (the UK counts as one in this sort of regard) a handshake is more normal and perhaps easier to dispense with. Your ethnic origin has little or no relevance to that.

I note that Spain seems to have an accelerating problem
 

ValleyLines142

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How about cafe culture? Takeaway coffees here are going to be much lower risk than all the china, cutlery, milk/cream/sugar/sprinkles jugs/bowls, hard tables/chairs, involved in a proper cafe break.

Starbucks has banned the use of reusable cups, although they are still offering the 25p cup discount if you show them your reusable cup in your bag (the 5p charge for a take away cup has also been waived).

Customers have been purchasing beverages in ordinary drink-in cups and then pouring them straight into their own cups, as by that point it is out of Starbucks' control.
 

Bletchleyite

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Might as well ask this here.

Would it be safe/wise to go on the rail journeys I have planned for this Saturday and next Saturday? (just for a ride - nothing more)

Just that I don’t really know what’s right to do and what isn’t.

I will be going on a fairly long rail journey this weekend provided the thing I'm going to doesn't get cancelled (and it's definitely discretionary) if that is any help. I'm looking forward to nice empty trains.

However, if you're particularly vulnerable (e.g. elderly, severe asthma etc) you may wish to rethink.
 

Bletchleyite

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Starbucks has banned the use of reusable cups, although they are still offering the 25p cup discount if you show them your reusable cup in your bag (the 5p charge for a take away cup has also been waived).

Customers have been purchasing beverages in ordinary drink-in cups and then pouring them straight into their own cups, as by that point it is out of Starbucks' control.

TBH this situation is one where single-use stuff makes sense and we probably need to temporarily suspend that sort of environmental measure for short-term benefit.
 

bahnause

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It’s interesting how some people (of both political wings) normally squeal about such and such a policy maybe harming the economy (don’t say the B word!!) but then are happy to demand we crash the economy early for Covid. The economy is people’s lives and health and well-being, we have to bear that in mind and not over react.
Acting now is much better then being forced to react later. The interventions will save the economy in the long term. A fast spread or even worse a uncontrolled spread would impact the economy and health services much more. At least businesses cann still plan for the future.

If social security is broken (ie people are forced to go to work sick because they cannot afford to lose pay) it has to be fixed. But it doesn‘t change the way the virus is spreading and therefore can‘t change the way it has to be tackeled.
 

Bantamzen

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If social security is broken (ie people are forced to go to work sick because they cannot afford to lose pay) it has to be fixed. But it doesn‘t change the way the virus is spreading and therefore can‘t change the way it has to be tackeled.

Just watch this space on this one. If there is an extended amount of time as a result of a lockdown, where people cannot afford to stay off work, expect civil unrest very, very quickly. A lot of people are or close to the bread line, it won't take much to see things spiral downhill, which could create even more long term problems than COVID-19.
 

Bletchleyite

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Just watch this space on this one. If there is an extended amount of time as a result of a lockdown, where people cannot afford to stay off work, expect civil unrest very, very quickly. A lot of people are or close to the bread line, it won't take much to see things spiral downhill, which could create even more long term problems than COVID-19.

It wouldn't be a terrible time to test a semi-means-tested[1] form of UBI...

[1] You get it if you can't work. I can work, ergo I wouldn't get it.
 

Mag_seven

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But yes, is fascinating to understand why Italy specifically..... No doubt many factors at play (far beyond cultural no doubt).

I wonder if there are a lot of smokers in Italy? I certainly noticed there were a lot of smokers when I visited Italy on a couple of occasions last year. Given the fact that this virus leads to lung problems I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link.
 

Bantamzen

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I wonder if there are a lot of smokers in Italy? I certainly noticed there were a lot of smokers when I visited Italy on a couple of occasions last year. Given the fact that this virus leads to lung problems I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link.

Smoking could certainly have an effect, it is way more popular in countries like Italy, Spain, Greece etc.

Sorry, Universal Basic Income.

Ah righty, thought it might be something along those lines. All I will say is that we are already on Universal Credit v2.0, and that is still very problematic. Another system to administer would probably melt the DWP/HMRC entirely.
 

notlob.divad

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I wonder if there are a lot of smokers in Italy? I certainly noticed there were a lot of smokers when I visited Italy on a couple of occasions last year. Given the fact that this virus leads to lung problems I wouldn't be surprised if there was a link.

It is not yet proven but it is a hypothesis. In Wuhan it has been reported that it has hit Men much more than Women. There is no known biological reason why that might be. However it is understood that 62% Men in China smoke compared to 3% of Women. https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-cases-why-more-men-than-women-2020-2?IR=T It is also one of the things that puts you in an 'At risk group' according to the HSE.

Smoking and coronavirus
Coronavirus (COVID-19) is an acute respiratory infection. Respiratory infections are serious infections that affect normal breathing. A wide range of bacteria and viruses cause these infections.

Smoking affects the immune system in the airways, lung tissue and throughout the body. This reduces your natural protection against infections, like coronavirus.

This means that if you smoke:
  • you have an increased risk of getting acute respiratory infections
  • you have a greater risk of the infection lasting longer
  • you have a greater risk of the infection being more serious than it would be for someone who does not smoke
Second-hand smoke has similar effects. Children who are exposed to smoke are at increased risk of acute respiratory infections.

Stopping smoking reduces your risk of smoking-related illness. Reducing exposure to second-hand smoke is also important, especially for children.
https://www2.hse.ie/conditions/coronavirus/at-risk-groups.html
 

bahnause

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Just watch this space on this one. If there is an extended amount of time as a result of a lockdown, where people cannot afford to stay off work, expect civil unrest very, very quickly. A lot of people are or close to the bread line, it won't take much to see things spiral downhill, which could create even more long term problems than COVID-19.
If people have to work without even the most basic kind of social security (hello gig economy), then it is time for a bit of civil unrest. Cheap workforce comes at a price.
 

RichT54

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The BBC are reporting they have been told the Australian F1 Grand Prix has been called off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51849163

There has been no official confirmation from F1 or governing body the FIA but the news follows a McLaren team member testing positive for coronavirus.

The situation has been rapidly developing through Thursday night in Melbourne but an announcement that the race will not take place is expected.
 

Meerkat

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Acting now is much better then being forced to react later. The interventions will save the economy in the long term.

That’s just wish washy guesswork, as you don’t know if acting now is necessary or an over reaction.
 

Mogster

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One of the resons it got out of control in Italy so quickly (and also a lot of the med countries) is their standard greeting of kissing cheeks 2 or three times and hugging. Which is done to everyone.

You are sitting in an office and someone you have never met or work with comes in to see someone else, and next minute its kissy kissy hug hug to everyone. Makes me cringe as a reserved brit.

That, and the fact they have a relatively older population, live in apartments more where it is more difficult to control cross infection of public areas and are more likely to have the elderly living with the younger generation.

Yes.

In Italy families of several generations live together and mealtimes are still a big event, grandkids, parents, oldies will all eat together. In the UK old people are packed off to care homes, kids order Uber Eats deliveries and eat in their bedrooms while their parents are in the lounge. There is much more social contact.
 

NoMorePacers

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I will be going on a fairly long rail journey this weekend provided the thing I'm going to doesn't get cancelled (and it's definitely discretionary) if that is any help. I'm looking forward to nice empty trains.

However, if you're particularly vulnerable (e.g. elderly, severe asthma etc) you may wish to rethink.
I'm not elderly nor do I have any respiratory problems that I'm aware of. Thanks for that, it's reassuring. :D
 

bahnause

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That’s just wish washy guesswork, as you don’t know if acting now is necessary or an over reaction.
It actually isn‘t anymore. We now have more data available from italy about what happened and why and a very interesting simulation done by the university of vienna. Social distancing works if implementet early enough. These people are virologists with years or even dacades of experience, they are not just „guessing“.
 

Meerkat

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It actually isn‘t anymore. We now have more data available from italy about what happened and why and a very interesting simulation done by the university of vienna. Social distancing works if implementet early enough. These people are virologists with years or even dacades of experience, they are not just „guessing“.
So why do our experts disagree, they aren’t just guessing either.
Have you got a link for the Vienna work?
 

bahnause

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Have you got a link for the Vienna work?
https://www.tuwien.at/tu-wien/aktue...att-panik-mit-computermodellen-gegen-covid19/

Let me try to do some translation work for the most important parts:
More than one hundred COVID19 deaths were counted in Italy on Sunday (8.3.). That the situation is so dramatic is not only due to the high number of infected people, but probably also to the fact that the health system is overstrained: If places in intensive care units are lacking or too few respirators are available, then people who could actually be cured also die.

"How many people will fall ill with COVID19 cannot be predicted", says Dr. Niki Popper (Institute for Information Systems Engineering, Vienna University of Technology). "However, it is important to slow down the course of the epidemic so that not too many people need intensive care at the same time. The goal is to have as flat a course as possible with as low a peak as possible before the numbers start to decline again. In a milder epidemic, which lasts longer, usually far fewer people die than in a severe outbreak, which is over more quickly".

This is exactly why it is important to pay attention to hygiene and to avoid unnecessary contact, especially if you belong to the risk group. "Even with very simple calculation models we can show If you reduce the number of contacts by only 25%, the height of the peak drops to 58%; if you reduce it by 50%, the peak drops to less than 30%," reports Martin Bicher, who helped develop the model.

However, contact is not equal to contact: The computer model can also calculate different contact networks for different people. If, for example, high-risk patients and emergency services are particularly well protected, this is particularly useful. Current simulation results show that the peak of the disease can be reduced even more.
 
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RailAleFan

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The crux of the press conference made perfect sense to me but Twitter is going absolutely off on one with #closetheschools etc.

The point made was that closing schools would result in kids, who seem to be most able to shrug coronovirus off with little or even no symptoms being looked after by their grandparents who are in the most at risk group because their parents still have to go out to work.
 

DarloRich

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Boris Johnson says this is the "worst public health crisis in a generation and many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time" and the response............................................. don't go on a cruise if you are old and stop at home if you have a tickle and feel a bit hot

I am sure the scientists are doing what they think is right based on their data and in particular the behavioural science stuff they are relaying on and which we cant see. What is missing is the understanding of public relations and the need to do something to bolster public confidence in the advice. Many people will not think this advice goes far enough and will lose confidence when they need it most.

They say that closing football stadiums for instance serves no purpose. Do it then. It shows to people who might not understand the science this is serious.

The blustering barnacle didn't even manage to hit home the advice about washing your hands ffs.
 
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Mogster

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Boris Johnson says this is the "worst public health crisis in a generation and many more families are going to lose loved ones before their time" and the response............................................. don't go on a cruise if you are old and stop at home if you have a tickle and feel a bit hot

I am sure the scientists are doing what they think is right based on their data and in particular the behavioural science stuff they are relaying on and which we cant see. What is missing is the understanding of public relations and the need to do something to bolster public confidence in the advice. Many people will not think this advice goes far enough and will lose confidence when they need it most.

They say that closing football stadiums for instance serves no purpose. Do it then. It shows to people who might not understand the science this is serious.

Im really glad they are basing these decisions on science rather than a desire to be seen to be doing something. We need to do what is right for Britain rather than looking over our shoulder at what other countries are doing.
 
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