Correct charge for out of zones Oyster Travel.

[neodoughnut]

Hi All,

I have recently decided to travel in from Potters Bar to London using an Oyster Card and a Zone 2-5 Weekly Season Ticket along with the appropriate amount in credit and was wondering what the correct peak charge was.

At the moment it is a bit confusing - as I am being charged £4.10 although the TFL Journey Planner states that travelling from New Barnet to Potters is only £2.60? And the peak return fare from National Rail is £4.90? Do I have to get off at New Barnet to tap out and back in before finishing my journey?

Any insight would be much appreciated.


Thanks

Steve

 

[furlong]

Define 'London'. Where do you end your journey?

 

[neodoughnut]

Define 'London'. Where do you end your journey?

Anywhere in London but I will usually have a Weekly Travelcard to cover my journey from within the Zones but in this case let's say Seven Sisters Station.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Anywhere in London but I will usually have a Weekly Travelcard to cover my journey from within the Zones but in this case let's say Seven Sisters Station.

So not going beyond Zone 2 into London proper, then?

 

[Haywain]

Is the weekly season loaded to the Oyster card?

 

[furlong]

So then look in your online account which shows this journey to Seven Sisters and please paste that into this thread, showing the 4.10 charge.

 

[JonathanH]

I have recently decided to travel in from Potters Bar to London using an Oyster Card and a Zone 2-5 Weekly Season Ticket along with the appropriate amount in credit and was wondering what the correct peak charge was.

At the moment it is a bit confusing - as I am being charged £4.10 although the TFL Journey Planner states that travelling from New Barnet to Potters is only £2.60? And the peak return fare from National Rail is £4.90? Do I have to get off at New Barnet to tap out and back in before finishing my journey?

The extension fares on Oyster / Contactless for travel to places outside the TfL zones are not the same as the point to point journey to a station in the zones. Therefore, while the point-to-point fare for New Barnet to Potters Bar is £2.60, the extension fare from Zone 5 to Potters Bar is £4.10. There is a premium for making this journey without touching out at the boundary station to preserve GTR's revenue.

You will save money by touching out / in at New Barnet but clearly that involves inconvenience.

The extension fares are not published.

 

[furlong]

That contradicts https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3569-1819 which states:

Extension fares are the single Pay As You Go (PAYG) fare for travel in the zones for which the Travelcard held is not valid.

PAYG single fares can be found using the single fare finder on the TfL website

 

[JonathanH]

That contradicts https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transp.../foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-3569-1819 which states:

No it doesn't. That only applies within the TfL zones. The operators outside of Zone 6 can charge what they like.

 

[furlong]

Yes it does, The FOI requested information about "How much is the extension fare for travelling outside the travelcard coverage?"
It was not restricted to travel inside the TfL zones.
The reply would have had to mention these unpublished fares if they existed.

 

[JonathanH]

Yes it does, The FOI requested information about "How much is the extension fare for travelling outside the travelcard coverage?"
It was not restricted to travel inside the TfL zones.
The reply would have had to mention these unpublished fares if they existed.

Sorry, I am not trying to defend the situation. It is terrible and not customer friendly. However, the FOI request is to TfL, and reflects how they charge extension fares. It does not cover fares set by DfT.

When Oyster / Contactless was extended to Gatwick in 2016, GTR / DfT suddenly saw a loss in revenue because extension fares were being charged in line with the way explained in the FOI response. The upshot was that extension fares were changed to ensure that the 'right' fare was being charged for through journeys into London. Ever since, the higher extension fares have been charged for journeys involving DfT operators outside the TfL Zones - see https://oysterfares.com/oyster-and-gatwick-the-truth/

 

[jon81uk]

Yes it does, The FOI requested information about "How much is the extension fare for travelling outside the travelcard coverage?"
It was not restricted to travel inside the TfL zones.
The reply would have had to mention these unpublished fares if they existed.

The question was asked to TfL and therefore they are only going to respond regarding fares they set.

 

[neodoughnut]

The question was asked to TfL and therefore they are only going to respond regarding fares they set.

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses.

I am currently travelling so will have to send you the screenshot later. It was from Essex Road Station but that is also in Zone 2 for which I had a 2-5 that week.

I was also under the impression that the price was the full peak return fare divided by two for each way. ( I think St Albans to Kings Cross is £15 each way?)

 

[JonathanH]

The email exchanges here show how all of this came about - it is very clear about why extension fares are set higher than the 'local' point to point fares.

Correspondance and meeting minutes relating to changes in contactless capping - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London

On Monday 16th May you changed the way the contactless system calculated caps and extension fares when journeys were made involving stations between Merstham and Gatwick Airport inclusive. Please provide copies of any correspondance between TfL and either the Department of Transport or Govia...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

On Monday 16th May you changed the way the contactless system calculated caps and extension fares when journeys were made involving stations between Merstham and Gatwick Airport inclusive. Please provide copies of any correspondance between TfL and either the Department of Transport or Govia Thameslink Railway relating to this change. Please also provide minutes of any meetings where this change was discussed, particularly those which might have reviewed the effects on daily charges for part-time commuters.

I was also under the impression that the price was the full peak return fare divided by two for each way. ( I think St Albans to Kings Cross is £15 each way?)

The extension fares are broadly set in such a way that passengers should reach the outboundary cap if they travel from and to an outboundary station and make multiple journeys within the zones, rather than reaching caps below this level. If I travel from Redhill to London for £7.00 on Contactless before 0630 and then spend the rest of the day travelling around London returning on the 405, I will be charged £7.00 plus whatever cap I reach in London - ie the £7.00 won't count towards the cap.

From Potters Bar, the daily peak cap is £26.40. The Zone 1-6 cap is £14.10, because of the change made to inboundary caps to make them one-fifth of the weekly price, and the same at all times. If only £2.60 was charged for Potters Bar to Zone 6, then passengers would only be capped at £19.30, but GTR / DfT want £26.40 to be charged so the extension fares need to be made more expensive to achieve this. It isn't obvious how £4.10 is charged, but it will make sense to the faresetter.

 

[miklcct]

The extension fares are broadly set in such a way that passengers should reach the outboundary cap if they travel from and to an outboundary station and make multiple journeys within the zones, rather than reaching caps below this level.

Isn't this way of fare-setting nonsense? If you are making multiple journeys inside the zones and only 2 journeys outside, shouldn't the outer cap NOT be reached instead? For example, if I take the tube from zone 6 to zone 2, make multiple journeys in zones 1-2 to hit the cap, then return to zone 6 by tube, the 1-6 cap isn't reached at all even if I'm paying the full 2-6 off-peak price.

If you travel enough in the outer zones, you will hit the outer cap anyway, for example, if you travel a lot in zones 1-2 to hit the 1-2 cap, and travel a lot between zones 2-13, you will eventually hit the zone 1-13 cap. However, isn't it unreasonable for a zone 1-13 cap, which covers much bigger than the zone 1-2 cap, to be reached just by 2 journeys between zone 2-13 in addition to the zone 1-2 cap?

 

[JonathanH]

However, isn't it unreasonable for a zone 1-13 cap, which covers much bigger than the zone 1-2 cap, to be reached just by 2 journeys between zone 2-13 in addition to the zone 1-2 cap?

Who says it has to be reasonable? The DfT operator is interested in maintaining its revenue.

What you are missing is that a lot of people who have traditionally bought Anytime Day Travelcards from Potters Bar / Redhill / Reading / wherever have done so precisely to make a journey to London and maybe one further journey each way in Zone 1 or maybe into Zone 2. I dont know what the revenue split is on that fare but it might well be favoured in the direction of the DfT operator. Now, suppose that they don't price up the extension fares. Suddenly the Zone 13-1 return journey becomes a lot cheaper and they lose revenue. It took a week for GTR to realise the revenue loss and they went about fixing it. The email exchange I linked to is very clear. It even says that the extension fares don't need to be published.

It isn't great but it all comes down to train operating company revenue being maintained.

 

[Watershed]

Who says it has to be reasonable? The DfT operator is interested in maintaining its revenue.

The Consumer Rights Act, for as long as TfL refuses to publish the extension fares.

Whilst there is no absolute requirement to publish the extension fares, in the absence of a published price, section 51 of the Consumer Rights Act dictates that TfL can only charge a "reasonable price".

I don't see that it can be reasonable to charge 50% more for an extension fare than for the equivalent point to point fare - particularly given that paper Boundary Zone fares are generally priced the same as the equivalent point to point journey.

Obviously once someone has made a particular journey once, and thereby found out what extension fare TfL want to charge, it would be harder to maintain that they did not know the price for future journeys.

So practicalities dictate that it is unlikely to be worth most people's time pursuing a few pounds' overcharging.

However, I wonder whether we will in due course see another class action, similar to the existing Boundary Zone claim, as a result of this underhanded practice.

 

[neodoughnut]

Good Afternoon,

I have an interesting update.

Yesterday I had purchased my usual Zone 2-5 Weekly Travelcard which had been loaded onto the Oyster along with £10 top-up:





As you can see in the morning I made a journey from Potters Bar to Seven Sisters which cost me £4.30 and then later I had to get a train from New Southgate to Potters Bar as there were delays on the Piccadilly Line for which I was charged the £3.20 which is the price of a point to point journey listed on TFL Journey Planner even though it the station was in Zone 4 and I have a Zone 2 To 5? The fare charged seems to indicate the Season Ticket is ignored entirely for certain point to point journeys? Not sure how this is meant to work with the 'Extension Fare' I am being charged when I get off at Seven Sisters?


Thanks

Steve

 

[JonathanH]

The fare charged seems to indicate the Oyster Card is ignored entirely for certain point to point journeys? Not sure how this is meant to work with the 'Extension Fare' I am being charged when I get off at Seven Sisters?

I would imagine that just indicates that the extension fare from Zone 5 to Potters Bar, which is unpublished, is more than the point-to-point fare for New Southgate to Potters Bar.

 

[Benjwri]

I would imagine that just indicates that the extension fare from Zone 5 to Potters Bar, which is unpublished, is more than the point-to-point fare for New Southgate to Potters Bar.

This is correct, as can be seen from the trip to Severn Sisters the Zone 5 to Potters Bar extension is £4.30, so a point to point is cheaper.

 

[neodoughnut]

But the point to point journeys don't seem to factor the fact that I have a Season Ticket/Travelcard? As the price seems to be same as a normal point to point without the Travelcard?

 

[Alex365Dash]

This is correct, as can be seen from the trip to Severn Sisters the Zone 5 to Potters Bar extension is £4.30, so a point to point is cheaper.

Also worth mentioning, for this day’s travel, a Potters Bar to New Barnet Anytime Day Return would be cheaper at £5.40. As OP has a Travelcard, there is no requirement for the train to call at New Barnet.

But the point to point journeys don't seem to factor the fact that I have a Season Ticket/Travelcard? As the price seems to be same as a normal point to point without the Travelcard?

They do - but the standard point to point PAYG fare is cheaper than the extension fare so you get that instead.

 

[neodoughnut]

Also worth mentioning, for this day’s travel, a Potters Bar to New Barnet Anytime Day Return would be cheaper at £5.40. As OP has a Travelcard, there is no requirement for the train to call at New Barnet.

Good point - Anyone have a good website with Boundary Zone Fares?


Thanks

Steve

 

[JonathanH]

Good point - Anyone have a good website with Boundary Zone Fares?


Thanks

Steve

There isn't even a bad website with boundary fares on PAYG. They are simply not published.

'Paper' boundary fares are available on the BRfares website, which is a good website.

 

[neodoughnut]

NB - Apologies just saw the line about BR Fares

 

[JonathanH]

But I'm sure I've actually purchased tickets in the past with Boundary Zones from ticket offices? And even TVMs?

Yes, sorry, 'paper' boundary fares are on BRFares.

https://www.brfares.com/!home

The locations are:
0041 Boundary Zone 2
0042 Boundary Zone 3
0043 Boundary Zone 4
0044 Boundary Zone 5
0072 Boundary Zone 6

I took your question to relate to PAYG boundary fares, which aren't in the public domain.

 

[Benjwri]

But I'm sure I've actually purchased tickets in the past with Boundary Zones from ticket offices? And even TVMs?

Hugely unhelpfully these fares are not the same as the PAYG Boundary Zone fares. The paper Boundary Zone fares can be found at BRFares and can probably give an idea of the PAYG fare, but will not be the same.

 

[JonathanH]

The paper Boundary Zone fares can be found at BRFares and can probably give an idea of the PAYG fare, but will not be the same.

The 'paper' boundary fares won't give any idea of the PAYG boundary fares, which are broadly designed such that the all day cap for Zone X to Zone 1 will increase to the relevant cap for outboundary Station to Zone 1 if someone reaches the relevant inboundary cap.

 

[neodoughnut]

Any ideas if they do a season ticket of a Boundary Zone ticket? Like a weekly from Boundary 5 to Potters Bar?

Appreciate everyone's responses on this.

 

[miklcct]

Any ideas if they do a season ticket of a Boundary Zone ticket? Like a weekly from Boundary 5 to Potters Bar?

Appreciate everyone's responses on this.

You can buy a paper one from the final Zone 5 station to Potters Bar and combine it with your Travelcard. There is no requirement for the train to stop at the boundary.