• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Cottingley Closure?

Status
Not open for further replies.

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,088
"It is expected that the new White Rose station will have the same level of service as the existing Cottingley station, at one train per hour."

Well that's a bit rubbish.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
How can it not do given that the 4 tracking stops at Westtown- how can a two track railway cope with any extra stops especially if the fasts are high speed?
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,088
How can it not do given that the 4 tracking stops at Westtown- how can a two track railway cope with any extra stops especially if the fasts are high speed?
6
I had assumed that the Northern 'via Brighouse' services would also call there.

Imagine if Meadowhall got one train per hour from Sheffield.

Well at least it will shorten the walk to the office park.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
I think the whole idea is bonkers. The White Rose shopping centre is there for motorists. It has nothing that a rail user wouldn't find in Leeds.

It seems a fairly unremarkable clump of offices. Hardly Canary Wharfe ! I can't see thousands commuting to it personally.

Really?

So in your eyes a station in a little village that has a weekly usage of just one man and his dog is an essential public service, but a station that could have hundreds of thousands of journeys a year is bonkers?

You'd open loads of stations in small rural places but it's not worth bothering at White Rose because the hundreds of shops/ cinema/ restaurants/ offices/ busy bus station etc aren't enough?

Intersting...

Is this another of the 'yorksrob' - 'but I use this station / service' examples where you seem to have this amazing ability to use every single threatened or under used station on the network and every train which the stats suggest is under-used but is miraculously full and standing on the days you use it ?

Yup!

I wonder how many thousands of journeys White Rose Centre would need to have each week before he deemed a station "useful"?

Even at 4tph, getting an all stops local service into a 15 minute window between fasts isn't straightforward (which is really a <9 minute window once headways are taken into account). Even then you'd have to be right behind on departure from Leeds, make at least 5 intermediate stops costing up to 2 minutes each (Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe), before the next chance to overtake at Mirfield.

Agreed - the maths mean that we can't accommodate lots of local stops as well as a fifteen minute "fast" service

The idea that the new station will ease congestion on the Outer Ring Road and Dewsbury Road by encouraging modal shift is certainly not proven. Harrumph.

You don't think it will take any cars off the road?

Or you think that there's no point in building it unless it takes all cars off the road?

The problem along this particular stretch of line is that there are quite a lot of areas that 'deserve' a station, but unless the line were to be fourtracked throughout, there's simply not the capacity to serve everywhere

...and also places with stations that "deserve" a lot more stops - e.g. Ilkley/ Harrogate have a good service because they are on a local line - Batley gets a poor service because it's constrained by being located on a busy "fast" line

Sorry. I think I've really got the hump on this one. It's going to built as a vanity project, will attract fewer passengers than the existing station and no-one will be held accountable when it fails.

I get that some people would rather we kept Cottingley (since, let's face it, there are some people who'd keep any station, however lightly used) - I get that there are some people who'd rather that we didn't open a new station - but you really think that a White Rose station will attract fewer passengers than Cottingley?

Cottingley residents, that have enjoyed a conveniently located station for the last 34 years, don't earn the council enough in bribes funding to keep their station

Ah, conspiracy theories, great
 

185

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
5,000
With the location not actually being at the White Rose (Shopping) Centre, but being behind the business park - effectively halfway between Cottingley and White Rose Shopping - my original absolute objection to this has changed to rather neutral - on the sole condition the council & authorities provide a proper, safe, well lit walking routes to both Cottingley (350m) and the WR (350m), with adequate car parking - but most of all - guaranteed capacity on peak hour trains.

There should also be an overlap - no closure of A guaranteed for at least 12 months from the opening of B.
 
Last edited:

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,382
Location
The White Rose County
The interesting thing is that it has been said that as part of TRU consideration is being given to relocating Morley away from the tunnel, to realign the track. If its put on the straight bit then it will only be about 1.35 km away from this new White Rose station. Currently Morley and Cottingley are about 2.7 km apart. I have started to wonder if White Rose will end up being the only station on the Leeds side of Morley tunnel.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,679
Location
Another planet...
The interesting thing is that it has been said that as part of TRU consideration is being given to relocating Morley away from the tunnel, to realign the track. If its put on the straight bit then it will only be about 1.35 km away from this new White Rose station. Currently Morley and Cottingley are about 2.7 km apart. I have started to wonder if White Rose will end up being the only station on the Leeds side of Morley tunnel.
Ideally, it'd be Morley that closed rather than Cottingley- with Morley being an ideal terminus for the tram/light-rail that Leeds has been crying out for for decades. The present station is poorly-sited, as suggested by the old name, Morley (Low). There's even a viaduct from the nearby M621 junction to the immediate vicinity of Leeds City station that could be used to segregate said light-rail from much of the congestion... :idea:

...but that is another discussion altogether!
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,088
with adequate car parking
With the shortage of parking in the business park, any station car park would probably get clogged up with people driving to the offices.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
If it is imperative to serve the new developments at the White Rose, could a future solution be for Leeds to bring back trams?

It could connect the White Rose with other areas where the railway lines do not serve, and also connect with the former polytechnic and Jimmy's Hospital (does that still exist? - I seem to remember there was a documentary on BBC1 on Thursdays in the late 1980s/early 90s with that name) at the city end in addition to the bus and railway stations.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,679
Location
Another planet...
If it is imperative to serve the new developments at the White Rose, could a future solution be for Leeds to bring back trams?

It could connect the White Rose with other areas where the railway lines do not serve, and also connect with the former polytechnic and Jimmy's Hospital (does that still exist? - I seem to remember there was a documentary on BBC1 on Thursdays in the late 1980s/early 90s with that name) at the city end in addition to the bus and railway stations.
I've long believed that trams would be a better solution to serving White Rose than a heavy-rail station. For example multiple tram stops could be built to serve the various different areas, rather than one station trying to serve a fairly large area with multiple traffic sources and sinks. The line could even run up the hill to Morley town centre and reduce much of the demand at the poorly-sited Morley (Low) station.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,255
Looks like the new "White Rose" station will be some 750 metres away from Cottingley station
What's the maximum distance a station can be relocated without invoking a formal closure procedure? In the last five years or so, three stations have been "moved" - Rochester by 500m, Bromsgrove by 350m and Forres by 230m, in each case retaining the same name of course. Did any of these require a closure procedure for the old station? Meridian Road is only 300m from the former Angel Road station, but in this case there was a change of name. Is that significant?
 

mattdickinson

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2010
Messages
549
Location
Uxbridge
What's the maximum distance a station can be relocated without invoking a formal closure procedure? In the last five years or so, three stations have been "moved" - Rochester by 500m, Bromsgrove by 350m and Forres by 230m, in each case retaining the same name of course. Did any of these require a closure procedure for the old station? Meridian Road is only 300m from the former Angel Road station, but in this case there was a change of name. Is that significant?
The closure procedure was followed for Rochester. I'm not sure about Bromsgrove or Forres.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,895
Location
Leeds
If it is imperative to serve the new developments at the White Rose, could a future solution be for Leeds to bring back trams?

It could connect the White Rose with other areas where the railway lines do not serve, and also connect with the former polytechnic and Jimmy's Hospital (does that still exist? - I seem to remember there was a documentary on BBC1 on Thursdays in the late 1980s/early 90s with that name) at the city end in addition to the bus and railway stations.
Yes, it's still open. It was slated to be on one of the original (Super)tram lines from 20 years ago that funding wasn't forthcoming for, even though West Yorkshire was told "Just the one line? Why not have three?" - which is why the original line south to Stourton gained the ones north to Headingley and east to Whinmoor. But I digress...

What's the maximum distance a station can be relocated without invoking a formal closure procedure? In the last five years or so, three stations have been "moved" - Rochester by 500m, Bromsgrove by 350m and Forres by 230m, in each case retaining the same name of course. Did any of these require a closure procedure for the old station? Meridian Road is only 300m from the former Angel Road station, but in this case there was a change of name. Is that significant?
That's a good thought, but the new station would never be called Cottingley. Cottingley is Ye Olde PTE and for people on a Council estate, whereas White Rose is for business, and thus totally sexy in the eyes of WYCA. Yes, I'm cynical, but I firmly believe that the upper reaches of the CA are full of the kind of people who would demolish St Pancras because "it's old".
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,455
Location
UK
Really?

So in your eyes a station in a little village that has a weekly usage of just one man and his dog is an essential public service, but a station that could have hundreds of thousands of journeys a year is bonkers?

You'd open loads of stations in small rural places but it's not worth bothering at White Rose because the hundreds of shops/ cinema/ restaurants/ offices/ busy bus station etc aren't enough?

Intersting...



Yup!

I wonder how many thousands of journeys White Rose Centre would need to have each week before he deemed a station "useful"?



Agreed - the maths mean that we can't accommodate lots of local stops as well as a fifteen minute "fast" service



You don't think it will take any cars off the road?

Or you think that there's no point in building it unless it takes all cars off the road?



...and also places with stations that "deserve" a lot more stops - e.g. Ilkley/ Harrogate have a good service because they are on a local line - Batley gets a poor service because it's constrained by being located on a busy "fast" line



I get that some people would rather we kept Cottingley (since, let's face it, there are some people who'd keep any station, however lightly used) - I get that there are some people who'd rather that we didn't open a new station - but you really think that a White Rose station will attract fewer passengers than Cottingley?



Ah, conspiracy theories, great

But it isn't a lightly used railway station in the middle of nowhere. It's a station serving a city suburb, which already has very poor transport links.

Ideally both stations will be served with a regular service formed of EMU

That's what Leeds needs, a decent commuter rail system like Liverpool or Glasgow and that will have huge benefits for traffic in Leeds.
 

bluenoxid

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2008
Messages
2,466
!Removed quote!

I’m waiting to see if those stats get corrected because that is quite a lot of interchanges.

If it is imperative to serve the new developments at the White Rose, could a future solution be for Leeds to bring back trams?

It could connect the White Rose with other areas where the railway lines do not serve, and also connect with the former polytechnic and Jimmy's Hospital (does that still exist? - I seem to remember there was a documentary on BBC1 on Thursdays in the late 1980s/early 90s with that name) at the city end in addition to the bus and railway stations.

St James Hospital still exists.

Trams are certainly one option to progress. Controversial but if we are going to speed up trains across the Pennines, a dog leg in south Leeds is not helpful, so converting this section of line to light rail would be helpful.

But it isn't a lightly used railway station in the middle of nowhere. It's a station serving a city suburb, which already has very poor transport links.

Ideally both stations will be served with a regular service formed of EMU

That's what Leeds needs, a decent commuter rail system like Liverpool or Glasgow and that will have huge benefits for traffic in Leeds.

Problem is where the trains go in Leeds. Glasgow and Liverpool have multiple lines and stations to distribute trains and passengers. Leeds has a constrained eastern throat.
 
Last edited:

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,455
Location
UK
I’m waiting to see if those stats get corrected because that is quite a lot of interchanges.



St James Hospital still exists.

Trams are certainly one option to progress. Controversial but if we are going to speed up trains across the Pennines, a dog leg in south Leeds is not helpful, so converting this section of line to light rail would be helpful.



Problem is where the trains go in Leeds. Glasgow and Liverpool have multiple lines and stations to distribute trains and passengers. Leeds has a constrained eastern throat.

So maybe it's time to build a second alignment through the city?

I think there should be a 4tph Dewsbury to Cross Gates commuter train. Plus extra stations at Hunslet, so maybe a Woodlesford to city then onto a new tunnel to serve Harehills/Chapel Allerton.

This is obviously very speculative, but it is needed if to give Leeds a decent public transport service. Atm it's a joke just to have buses for a city of its size
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,895
Location
Leeds
One for the rail historians. What were the services that used to terminate at the following stations:-
Leeds Central
Leeds Wellington Street
Leeds Marsh Lane
Leeds Hunslet Lane.
Roughly...

Central to/from: Bradford Exchange; Horsforth, Harrogate; Low Moor, Halifax, Todmorden; Low Moor, Cleckheaton, Huddersfield; Wakefield K, Featherstone; Ardsley, Lofthouse; Wakefield stations; Wakefield, Doncaster, Stainforth, Grimsby, Cleethorpes; Ardsley, Stanley, Methley, Castleford; Rotherham Central, Sheffield Vic; Doncaster, Peterborough, KX.

City/Wellington (as replacement for Marsh Lane and Hunslet Lane): Otley, Ilkley; Keighley, Skipton, Hellifield; Morley, Dewsbury, Huddersfield; Morecambe; Woodlesford, Castleford, Pontefract, Knottingley; Harrogate, Knaresborough; Cudworth, Swinton, Sheffiled Mid; Garforth, Selby, Hull, Bridlington; Penda's Way, Wetherby, Church Fenton; Horsforth, Harrogate, Ripon; Sheffield, Chesterfield, Nottingham, StP.

Source: old timetables I have in a box, plus timetableworld.com
 

SargeNpton

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2018
Messages
1,321
What's the maximum distance a station can be relocated without invoking a formal closure procedure? In the last five years or so, three stations have been "moved" - Rochester by 500m, Bromsgrove by 350m and Forres by 230m, in each case retaining the same name of course. Did any of these require a closure procedure for the old station? Meridian Road is only 300m from the former Angel Road station, but in this case there was a change of name. Is that significant?
As I understand it (for England & Wales at least) , a relocated station that shares any part of the footprint with the old station does not need to go through the closure process. However, if the new build is on a completely new site then the closure consultation does have to take place; whether or not the new station uses the same name or a different name.
 

YorksLad12

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2020
Messages
1,895
Location
Leeds
How far away is the station site location for the proposed White Rose station from the site of the long-closed Churwell railway station location. It was opened in 1848 and closed in 1940.
Churwell was just south of Elland Road; I'd say 600m away from Cottingley, 150m away from White Rose. Co-ordinates from Churwell's Wikipedia page.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,017
The closure of Cottingley has been ratified by the ORR.

The letter (main text reproduced below) is dated 27 February 2023 but seems to have taken a while to surface. I got it first (this morning) through the 'Your Voice' service. It would be interesting to know whether the '4 weeks following the date of this notice', (para 6 below) was complied with or is happening from today. Any eagle-eyed Leeds or Morley users reading this?

The suggestion is that the closure will tie in with the opening of White Rose nearby but ORR have not found it necessary to stipulate that as part of the ratification (para 5 below).

The paperwork can be viewed here.

Closure Ratification Notice – Cottingley station
1. On 18 March 2022 West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA) asked the
Office of Rail and Road (ORR) to ratify the proposal to close Cottingley station.
2. Following an additional consultation undertaken by WYCA, it submitted an
updated consultation outcome report to ORR on 22 November 2022.
3. Further to s32(8) of the Railways Act 2005 (the Act), I am satisfied that:
a) there has been no failure or defect in the consultation; and
b) the proposal satisfies the criteria set out in the relevant part of the closure
guidance issued under the Act.
4. Having considered the overall proposal, I hereby ratify the closure of Cottingley
station.
5. Under s33(2) of the Act, ORR may “impose such requirements relevant to the
proposal as it considers appropriate”. I do not consider it appropriate to impose such
requirements in this case.
6. Under ORR’s powers in s32(9)(b) of the Act, I require the operator of Cottingley
station to display this notice at the station for a period of 4 weeks following the date of
this notice.
7. In addition, I require the operators of the stations in the area affected by the
closure – Leeds and Morley stations – to display this notice at those stations for the
same period.
 

pdeaves

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2014
Messages
5,631
Location
Gateway to the South West
The closure of Cottingley has been ratified by the ORR.

The letter (main text reproduced below) is dated 27 February 2023 but seems to have taken a while to surface. I got it first (this morning) through the 'Your Voice' service. It would be interesting to know whether the '4 weeks following the date of this notice', (para 6 below) was complied with or is happening from today. Any eagle-eyed Leeds or Morley users reading this?

The suggestion is that the closure will tie in with the opening of White Rose nearby but ORR have not found it necessary to stipulate that as part of the ratification (para 5 below).

The paperwork can be viewed here.
I think it's only taken a while to surface in your usual channels! I saw this in early March and noted in late May that Cottingley station was almost wallpapered in copies of the letter. It appears to be carefully worded that opening White Rose does not necessarily have to happen first or concurrently.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,017
I think it's only taken a while to surface in your usual channels! I saw this in early March and noted in late May that Cottingley station was almost wallpapered in copies of the letter. It appears to be carefully worded that opening White Rose does not necessarily have to happen first or concurrently.
No, there is the implication that White Rose will be available before / when Cottingley closes. There is a paragraph by West Yorkshire Combined Authority in a document which suggests that will be the case but not an undertaking that it will be the case. Simple enough to write a clause that A will not happen unless and until B happens. I do like a good undertaking, even if it is prohibitively expensive to enforce. An undertaking tends to sharpen the minds of the boundary pushers and shape-shifters who knowingly speak with forked tongues. There was an article in the press this week suggesting that we really shouldn't be relying nowadays on someone being the jolly decent chap and always doing the right thing.

Given the inflexibility of systems I do wonder what would happen if Cottingley calls were removed from the timetable (say December change date), White Rose calls added at the same date, then there were a delay in completing White Rose. Easy not to call somewhere new, more difficult to call somewhere additionally - even if the time allowed in the timetable between Leeds and morley is exactly the same. I'm sure it will all go to plan or delays will be handled appropriately.
 

willgreen

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2020
Messages
619
Location
Leeds
Seems a shame that with increased capacity and improved train acceleration through electrification post-TRU that Cottingley can’t be merely mothballed - although I assume this would require a degree of maintenance.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,679
Location
Another planet...
Seems a shame that with increased capacity and improved train acceleration through electrification post-TRU that Cottingley can’t be merely mothballed - although I assume this would require a degree of maintenance.
I assume that in that case, the lack of accessibility between the platforms would no longer be grandfathered in. Therefore any resumption of service would require the footbridge be replaced with an accessible one. When there's a new station built with full accessibility just a few hundred yards away this would seem to me to be an unwise use of limited funds.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top