Could a decent service be reintroduced between Goole and Leeds (via Knottingley)?

[cactustwirly]

It's definitely true that Castleford enjoys an hourly service to Leeds courtesy of the Hallam line.

Given that in your own post, you mention that with the full Goole service, Castleford had an hourly service, it suggests that there was no reason to withdraw the Goole services to provide today's half hourly service.

It seems that the units saved, must have gone somewhere else.

I think the Goole services were actually withdrawn because no-one used them, and the units could be better utilised if used on more heavily used services

 

[yorksrob]

I think the Goole services were actually withdrawn because no-one used them, and the units could be better utilised if used on more heavily used services

I'm always a bit suspicious when people use phrases such as "no one used them". They may have been comparatively lightly used, compared to other busier services, however that's not the same as no one using them.

 

[alistairlees]

I'll try and summarise the evolution of services, to the best of my knowledge. Corrections / clarifications are welcome

1970s
There are six trains a day (Mondays to Saturdays) from Leeds to Goole, via Castleford / Knottingley. A couple of extra trains run between Leeds and Castleford / Knottingley. For the record, there are also a variety of Summer Saturday only (and weekdays in high summer) services from Castleford to places like Scarborough and Blackpool North. There is no Sunday service.

1980s
WYPTE funds additional trains between Leeds and Knottingley, to give an hourly service from Leeds to Knottingley and Castleford, when it's combined with the Leeds to Goole services (now reduced to five a day). There is still no Sunday service. Services are generally provided by the then new 141s from 1984.

From 1988 (I think) Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds services were diverted to be Sheffield - Barnsley - Wakefield Kirkgate - Castleford - Leeds services, giving Castleford to Leeds a 30 minute frequency. At about the same time the service to Altofts was dramatically reduced, with the station closing in 1990.

1990s
I suspect that the Leeds - Goole frequency was further reduced in this decade, but haven't got the the info to hand. Also I suspect that a Sunday service between Leeds and Knottingley was introduced in this decade.

2000s
The two or three trains a day (Mondays to Saturdays) service between Leeds and Goole and was reduced to one / two, with the withdrawal of the midday service from 2004.

2010s
No change, so far. There remains one train from Leeds to Goole; and two from Goole to Leeds, on Mondays to Saturdays.

As I said, clarifications welcome.

 

[Neptune]

Before 2004 it required 2 units to work stand alone hourly Leeds - Knottingley services with a 3rd unit (a 153) working hourly Wakefield - Pontefract Monkhill services. When the 1204 service went through to Goole using one of the 2 LDS - KNO units the Ponte shuttle unit went through to Knottingley to cover for the hole in the return Knottingley service to Leeds.

As I mentioned in my previous post I worked the 1204 many times over a number of years and in maybe 50 trips only remember seeing 1 person ever between Knottingley and Goole. Hardly economical.

As a result of this the lunchtime Goole was pulled in the summer 2004 timetable and at no extra unit cost the 3 diagrams worked LDS - KNO - WKK - KNO - LDS. This lasted until May 2018 when the ponte shuttle service also started running through to Leeds. 3 off peak diagrams remain to run this.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Summer 1991 tinetable was
Leeds to Goole:12:07, 17:22
Goole to Leeds: 07:10; 13:52; 18:52.
Hardly surprising that not many people used the trains, for example:-
No service for anyone wanting to work in Goole (or, more importantly, wanting to commute via Goole to Hull)
07:10 from Goole too early for many shopping/leisure travellers; next train at 13:52 much too late.
17:22 final departure from Leeds too early.

There was also an approximately hourly Leeds / Castleford service, but with some 2 hour gaps; Sunday service every 2 hours.

Historically, many trains to Goole started from Wakefield Kirkgate, with connections from Leeds to Knottingley via Castleford Cutsyke.
This was the Summer 1955 service:
Walefield Kirkgate to Goole (journey times about 60 mins, or 35 mins, using the one express each way):
07:22; 09:20 (SX)/ 09:25 (SO); 11:48 (Express, to Hull); 12:30 (from Mirfield SX or Brighouse SO); 14:00 (SO);
16:10 (SO) to Knottingley; 16:27 (SX) (from Barnsley); 16:35 (Summer Sats, Blackpool Central to Hull); 17:40;
20:50; 22:35 (from Bradford Ex. on Saturdays)
Leeds to Knottingley: 05:30; 08:58; 12:05; 13:27 (SO); 16:03 (SX); 17:35; 20:28,
Leeds to Goole: 16:03 (SO); 18:35.

Goole to Wakefield Kirkgate: 05:35; 08:39 (Summer Sats., Hull - Blackpool Cen.); 08:50; 10:35; 12:12SX /12:22SO;
15:48; 16:30 (to Bradford Ex.); 18:00; 19:11 (Express, Hull - Wakefield, continued to Liverpool Ex. FO); 20:41; 22:40(SO);
Goole to Leeds: 07:12; 13:46;
Knottingley to Leeds: 06:55; 10:01; 13:00 (SO); 16:50; 18:43; 21:26.
Knottingley to Wakefield: 07:57 (to Bradford Ex.)

All would be steam at that time.
Castleford Central was served from Leeds Central using the now closed line via Stanley (about 10 trains per day)
It also had a sparse service on the Wakefield - Castleford - York line (about 8 per day.)

By Summer 1963, the Leeds to Knottingley service had been much reduced, but alternative connections had been provided by extending the Leeds Central - Castleford Central trains to Pontefract Monkhill (many continuing via the now removed curve to Pontefract Baghill.
Some times had changed on the Wakefield - Goole service, but the level of service was fairly similar to that in 1955. Most trains would then have been dmus, with journey times reduced to about 51/53 minutes.

 

[alistairlees]

Here's the May 1970 to May 1971 timetable.

Leeds to Goole, Mondays to Saturdays (no Sunday service)
07.10
09.13 (did not call at Woodlesford)
12.13 (did not call at Woodlesford on Saturdays)
16.50
17.36

Additionally there was a 13.13 to Castleford.

From Goole to Leeds, Mondays to Saturdays (no Sunday service)
07.19
08.30 (did not call at Woodlesford)
10.52 (did not call at Woodlesford)
16.17 (did not call at Woodlesford)
18.11

Additionally there was a 13.42 from Castleford to Leeds.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Wow, there has been a far greater response than I ever expected from such an admittedly obscure example!

I think the many timetables we have been given from the past show how the line clearly has the capacity for many, many extra services but it is a financial and political question why they have not. I suppose this raises the question of why some other similarly poorly served lines, like the Moorthorpe-Sherburn in Elmet via Pontefract Baghill one, have seen (modest) improvements in recent years, whilst this one hasn't.

 

[tbtc]

Would it be such a bad thing for Northern to reinstate a 5 a day timetable and see how it went for a year or so as a trial? The current service is of no use to anyone aside from enthusiasts who want to travel the line or if it actually coincides with a time that's convenient for someone to use it. I don't see how things could ever improve without some kind of campaign to brow beat Northern in to action, maybe they could be proactive for once.

Opportunity cost though.

Even if you are only talking one extra DMU (to provide a bi-hourly service - given that the current timings wouldn't give any layover time for a single unit to provide an hourly service) for a year or two then that's a DMU that could be providing extra seats on the Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley - Wakefield - Leeds diagrams, providing a lot more seats into and out of Leeds. For example, there are three diagrams on the main "circular" service, one spare two coach DMU (that could be used on the line to Goole) could provide an extra diagram to two thirds of the services - i.e. extending two of the two coach DMUs to three coaches.

And then, if the average passenger numbers after a couple of years of "trial" operation were still lower than the capacity of a minibus then would the "enthusiasts" on here gracefully accept closing the line? Or would they insist on an extra five year trial with reduced fares to stimulate demand, before we could be absolutely sure of the demand levels? And even if it did close they'd demand that the whole line/ infrastructure/ stations be fully preserved just in case other railways double demand fifty years later (because Beeching should have kept all infrastructure preserved in that manner)?

Sorry, but I don't believe that most people suggesting we throw more scarce resources at it to stimulate demand would ever accept future closure - there'd always be another excuse given (e.g. "but we haven't tried through trains to Hull yet, maybe if we ran even more trains and slashed fares then that'd encourage demand further").

Some infrequently served lines might have some potential - I can see the justification for turning some "parliamentary" services into regular services but the Knottingley - Goole service is never going to be busy - there's no large intermediate places - anyone with a car (who lives near intermediate stations) is going to head to Selby instead (or drive along the M62).

And, whilst Goole is a reasonably sized place, it's worth pointing out that the current 17:58 from Leeds arrives there at 19:08 but Goole passengers working in Leeds could leave the big city at 17:48 to Hull, change at Brough and be back in Goole at 18:54 (i.e. leave Leeds ten minutes earlier, get home fourteen minutes earlier - so it's quicker to change at Brough than to sit on a direct train). Once Leeds - Hull becomes two trains per hour (with Northern's extension of the current Leeds - Selby service) there will be more connections available at Brough, so more opportunities for Leeds - Goole journeys (without the need to run a service through the middle of nowhere).