Could a low income railcard work ?

[Helvellyn]

Same thing if everyone has a railcard. Headline fare prices will bear as much resemblance to the actual price as a DFS Sofa!

Exactly this. Plus lots of low income people wouldn't have access to the railway, so if it gets seen as a "benefit" it's hardly universal.

I also think the rationale for some of the original railcards gets forgotten and over the years more have been added as gimics rather than serving serious needs.

16-25 (originally Young Persons) really benefitted students away at university travelling to/from home, which encouraged InterCity and long distance regional travel. Anything else was a bonus. Even with fee-free tuition and grants these were still low income groups.

Family Railcard was a great way of encouraging families to make trips/holidays by train rather than car, at a time when we still had Holidaymaker trains at weekends and lots of Summer extras. We did quite a few Butlins holidays this way in the 1980s before they started closing camps.

Senior Railcard served a similar purpose to the Young Persons one, just for a different age group with low incomes.

The Network Railcard was about Network SouthEast filling up empty off peak services with leisure travellers, and similar at weekends, where they could better utilise assets that would otherwise be half empty or in sidings. The Annual Gold card idea for season tickets was similar to try encourage those Mon-Fri commuters to travel at a weekend with friends and family.

 

[Llanigraham]

Define "low income"?
What might be considered low in, say the South East, is potentially the average in some rural areas.

And how are you going to regulate it?
It would require staff to do the "means test" and they would have to be paid for.

 

[SynthD]

I’d do this for buses first, trains later. The cut off figure is a full years work on minimum wage. Anyone in work, not paying basic rate income tax, not in a household with a higher rate payer, should qualify. I’d begin to pay for this by slowly removing the old age benefits, including London travel, from those not yet taking a pension.

 

[JonathanH]

I’d begin to pay for this by slowly removing the old age benefits, including London travel, from those not yet taking a pension.

Slowly? That just hits those who are currently young - clobbering the future for the young is not the answer to paying too much to today's pensioners. If we are going to follow the approach you are advocating, the better way of dealing with it is immediately moving the threshold for tapering of the personal allowance for people in receipt of the state pension from the current £100,000 to £50,000, still over the next £25,000, with 60% top rate tax above £75,000 for that group, then gradually reducing that threshold over time.

That approach recovers the basic state pension from those now who can afford to do without it, and puts in place the ability to recover the basic state pension from people with similar pension provision in the future.

I’d do this for buses first, trains later.

Yes

Anyone in work, not paying basic rate income tax, not in a household with a higher rate payer, should qualify.

That sounds a bit too generous. The higher rate threshold is £50,270.

 

[renegademaster]

Is that not basically what the jobcenter plus card is?

The obvious way to avoid that little conundrum would be to introduce a national railcard available to everyone, however the powers that be seem determined not to do that !

If you are doing that you might as well just make fares 25% cheaper for everyone. The idea of railcards is that they are meant to target demographics that use rail less to encourage usage(most railcards) encourage off peak travel (Network Railcards), or to remove the competitive advantage taxis and cars have when you have more than one person (two together railcard).


You could try to transform railcards into a data collection exercise like Supermarket loyalty cards

 

[Egg Centric]

That sounds a bit too generous. The higher rate threshold is £50,270.

Another obvious issue here. 50k where I live in County Durham and you're sitting pretty - can afford a mortgage and general comfortable middle class lifestyle. 50k in parts of London as a grad repaying student loan and you're probably struggling to rent a room owned by some tyrant of a landlord and finding it very difficult to save anything at the end of the month. And it's my experience too that (switching between them every month) both ends of the country often fail to believe this about the other end. So is it "just about managing" or not? Or do we have geographical boundaries or what?

 

[Pigeon]

Since under any reasonable set of criteria I would be eligible for such a railcard myself, all I can say is that I think it would be a great idea

I'm not convinced that the "poverty trap" argument is really significant. IME by far the largest imposition of a poverty trap is that which arises from RENT. Thanks to the moronic policies of successive governments in fostering a Ponzi-scheme policy wrt house prices and conning the public into thinking this is actually a good idea, it is very easy for someone's rent to be (un)comfortably in excess of every other expense put together. This is an outrage even if you do have a job, and if you don't then the loss of eligibility for housing benefit is very likely to mean you're better off continuing not to have one. The expenditure on rail fares, which will be low to begin with if you are chronically short of money, is of far lesser magnitude and significance.

OTOH this thread has reminded me that I probably am already eligible for a disability railcard! I tend to overlook this sort of thing because I don't habitually view myself as disabled, but since I struggle severely with the amount of walking involved in such things as using a station (need to sit for a rest every 20m or so and end up screwing because there's never anything to sit on, and as for stairs...) I guess I probably do qualify, so thanks to whoever it was who mentioned that!

 

[Egg Centric]

I'm not convinced that the "poverty trap" argument is really significant. IME by far the largest imposition of a poverty trap is that which arises from RENT. Thanks to the moronic policies of successive governments in fostering a Ponzi-scheme policy wrt house prices and conning the public into thinking this is actually a good idea, it is very easy for someone's rent to be (un)comfortably in excess of every other expense put together. This is an outrage even if you do have a job, and if you don't then the loss of eligibility for housing benefit is very likely to mean you're better off continuing not to have one.

I completely agree with that - it's just that this is likely to make things even worse. The situation should outrage any right thinking person.

The expenditure on rail fares, which will be low to begin with if you are chronically short of money, is of far lesser magnitude and significance.

But not so much with this. If the railcard is going to be usable for commuting anyway. And let's face it, if the railcard doesn't save much money it's fairly pointless isn't it?

 

[BlueLeanie]

It's 31 to 59 year olds, because the age limitation of the Senior Railcard is 60 and not 65.

Then you go North of the border and it's 31-49 as you're considered elderly at age 50 and qualify for Club Fifty

Club 50

If you're over 50, you can discover Scotland with Club 50 for only £15 per year and enjoy exclusive flat fares and discounts.

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

Please please please look into such things as the 16 hour work week trap and so on. This sort of well meaning stuff traps peoples in poverty. Cliff edges for relatively inconsequential stuff like winter fuel payment can be tolerated but a railcard worth many thousands should not have such low thresholds

DWP is one of the last Department you want to have anything to do with railcard schemes, they are unable/unwilling to handle their current commitment to process benefit claims in a timely manner and a UN committee found that it and the government were guilty of grave and systematic breaches of the human rights of disabled claimants. It being handled more likely how the Disabled Persons Railcard is now would be quicker, fairer and more cost effective (No need to administer railcards for people that do not need/want them.).

It would not be that hard to administer, a person would be eligible if they are able to produce a letter proving that they received a means-tested benefit in the past 12 months. If the possibility of poor people using the railcard after stopping being so poor is such a problem for the scheme they could limit it for a year like they do with the Network and 26-30 Railcards.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the card should be targeted at the JAM's, so it wouldn't amount to a poverty trap as JAM's aren't generally in poverty.

I also don't agree that something that brings down everyday costs catches people in a poverty trap. Don't forget - rail travel isn't income or benefits - people have an element of choice as to how much they use it.

But with that in mind, I feel that receipt of income related benefits is too narrow an eligibility criteria.



Assuming that that's correct, how much of that is a product of not being able to afford high fares ?

If people had access to lower fares, those people would likely make more journeys to their benefit !

I didn’t say that would be the fairest way to do it, just a way that would work.

I agree entirely about the DWP, they’re unfit for purpose and institutionally cruel. But one would hope it wouldn’t be that difficult to automatically send a railcard to people in receipt of means tested benefits.

 

[BrianW]

If the National Minimum and National Living Wage were genuinely sufficient to live off, (and similarly the state pension) there should be no 'issue', eg no need for any kind of railcard. There are however differences of living arrangements and costs, and the number of hours worked.

So, what are railcards for?

All people should be afforded the dignity to be able to make their own decisions as to when , where, how and how often to travel. A kind of face-to-face is available online or on the phone, though with limitations of access and quality of interaction.

Travel is most essential for lowly paid workers, so how about the equivalent of 'workperson's train tickets'? It does smack of degrading 'poverty porn', shame and stigmatisation.

Railcards, fare-pricing structures and timetabling (including crew hours?) are ways of 'rationing', rearranging and attracting discretionary traffic toward less well used services.

Eligibility for certain 'benefits' has at least the benefit of a certain logic, definition and 'outsourcing' to DWP, however 'cruel' they may or may not be in practice.

 

[Egg Centric]

All people should be afforded the dignity to be able to make their own decisions as to when , where, how and how often to travel.

A moment's thought shows that's just not sensible though. Or should I be able to travel to Australia twice a week?

I'm also btw against making anything too much of a level playing field. I mean what's the point in becoming rich if you can't do things poor people can't? In theory money is a "token" for doing well. You need to reward people. That's why these insane marginal rates are such a bad thing.

(Argument also works the other way - I really don't get rich people who move to Monaco or whatever. How insane is it that you can live where you want, but then you become richer and you suddenly can't? Put up and shut up! But otoh with confiscatory tax rates I cannot blame them, however I don't believe UK tax rates on CAPITAL are confiscatory - INCOME otoh certainly can be)

 

[yorksrob]

If you were going to do that it would undermine the long standing policy of transferring more of the cost of running the railway onto passengers and away from general taxation. A more straightforward approach to achieve the same end would be to simply abandon that policy and make fares cheaper across the board.

it's not really a policy I'm ideologically wedded to, to be honest.

That would lead to overcrowding and worse funding for the railway. How do you ensure that only those who currently can't afford railway fares have access to lower fares?

Yes, we're always told that the sky will fall in, as soon as someone mentions making rail travel more affordable (it didn't when Scotrail abolished peak fares).

We don't seem to worry about the existing railcards only being available to those who currently can't afford rail fares. I'm sure the King and Queen will be eligible for a couple of them. If people can prove that they're below the relevant income threshold, so be it.

I’d do this for buses first, trains later. The cut off figure is a full years work on minimum wage. Anyone in work, not paying basic rate income tax, not in a household with a higher rate payer, should qualify. I’d begin to pay for this by slowly removing the old age benefits, including London travel, from those not yet taking a pension.

Yes

Why ?

Bus passengers already have their three pound fare scheme. How much more do their fares need to be supressed ?

This is about making rail affordable after years of price hikes.

Another obvious issue here. 50k where I live in County Durham and you're sitting pretty - can afford a mortgage and general comfortable middle class lifestyle. 50k in parts of London as a grad repaying student loan and you're probably struggling to rent a room owned by some tyrant of a landlord and finding it very difficult to save anything at the end of the month. And it's my experience too that (switching between them every month) both ends of the country often fail to believe this about the other end. So is it "just about managing" or not? Or do we have geographical boundaries or what?

Notice that this concern for fareness doesn't extend to the fact that residents of the comparatively well off South East already have access to a railcard, whereas those of us in lower income regions don't.

If we're that worried about a fixed income band favouring some regions over others, we perhaps ought to look at the existing railcard system anyway.

Eligibility for certain 'benefits' has at least the benefit of a certain logic, definition and 'outsourcing' to DWP, however 'cruel' they may or may not be in practice.

i think the income related benefits are too restricted to act as a gateway for what I envisage the card doing.

I'm also btw against making anything too much of a level playing field. I mean what's the point in becoming rich if you can't do things poor people can't? In theory money is a "token" for doing well. You need to reward people. That's why these insane marginal rates are such a bad thing.

The rich can hire a yacht or fly to Brazil. My railcard won't deprive them of things to do that us plebs can't afford.

 

[43066]

it's not really a policy I'm ideologically wedded to, to be honest.

I had an inkling that might be the case.

 

[Stephen42]

I didn’t say that would be the fairest way to do it, just a way that would work.

I agree entirely about the DWP, they’re unfit for purpose and institutionally cruel. But one would hope it wouldn’t be that difficult to automatically send a railcard to people in receipt of means tested benefits.

The DWP probably wouldn't have recent photos on file, there is a clear fraud risk with railcards that apply to a wider range of fares than others. Plenty of recipients wouldn't intend to use the railcard and may either pass or sell on to someone who would use it.

There's also the restriction of having to use existing claimant lists which will make targeting appropriately a lot more difficult.

 

[BrianW]

A moment's thought shows that's just not sensible though. Or should I be able to travel to Australia twice a week?

I'm also btw against making anything too much of a level playing field. I mean what's the point in becoming rich if you can't do things poor people can't? In theory money is a "token" for doing well. You need to reward people. That's why these insane marginal rates are such a bad thing.

(Argument also works the other way - I really don't get rich people who move to Monaco or whatever. How insane is it that you can live where you want, but then you become richer and you suddenly can't? Put up and shut up! But otoh with confiscatory tax rates I cannot blame them, however I don't believe UK tax rates on CAPITAL are confiscatory - INCOME otoh certainly can be)

I like to think I give more than 'a moment's thought' ...; maybe I prefer to think of people acting reasonably and not always 'on the make'. From those with much, much is expected. Poor folk with poorly paid jobs should not be obliged to live on the charity of so-called 'hard-working' others and show a 'pass card' for which they are expected to be grateful.

 

[6Gman]

I think there’s a relatively easy way to implement such a railcard, maybe not the fairest way but it would work. The solution would be to have the DWP as the railcard issuer for those specific railcards and for them to be automatically issued to anyone on Universal Credit or equivalent benefits.

But people come on and off Universal Credit constantly particularly if they are on variable work contracts.

 

[nw1]

There is already a railcard for the unemployed which is issued free of charge to those eligible.

Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card | Avanti West Coast

With the Jobcentre Plus Railcard, you can save 50% off rail travel if you are currently unemployed and actively seeking employment. Get your free card today.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Ah ok, fair enough. In which case my comment is aimed at lower-paid people.

 

[BrianW]

There is already a railcard for the unemployed which is issued free of charge to those eligible.

Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card | Avanti West Coast

With the Jobcentre Plus Railcard, you can save 50% off rail travel if you are currently unemployed and actively seeking employment. Get your free card today.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Is this an Avanti (only) initiative? I don't see it on the National Rail website.

 

[JamesT]

Is this an Avanti (only) initiative? I don't see it on the National Rail website.

It's listed on gov.uk, no indication it's TOC-limited: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rt/support-to-help-with-the-cost-of-transport

Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card
This is provided to those unemployed claiming Jobseekers Allowance or Universal Credit for 3-9 months (18-24 year olds) or 3-12 months (over 25s). Other benefit recipients may receive a Jobcentre Plus Travel Discount Card from 3 months of their claim and if they are actively engaged with a Jobcentre Plus adviser. Cardholders are entitled to a 50% discount on selected rail tickets.

It's probably not listed on National Rail because if you're eligible then the Jobcentre should be telling you about it.

 

[BrianW]

It's listed on gov.uk, no indication it's TOC-limited: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rt/support-to-help-with-the-cost-of-transport

It's probably not listed on National Rail because if you're eligible then the Jobcentre should be telling you about it.

Yet Avanti seems pleased to 'advertise' its existence, along with for instance the Cotswold Line and Devon & Cornwall cards, where IIUC Avanti runs no trains.

I agree that the Jobcentre should be advising its customers of all the help available, and help those eligible to apply for and receive their entitlement, for which they have perhaps worked in the past and which broader society has decided through their elected representatives they are due. All part of facilitating a return to work which is good for the individual and society. I am pleased to hear of this compassion and help, which may also help address poor repute of both Jobcentres and the jobless seeking the dignity of employment.

 

[alex17595]

The Job centre railcards are extremely rare. Everytime I see it on a ticket I ask and 99.9% of the time it's used by fare evaders, in fact I've seen only one in the past 18 months.

 

[A0]

Is this an Avanti (only) initiative? I don't see it on the National Rail website.

Avanti have it on their website as do:

GWR https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/railcards/jobcentre-plus-discount-card

TPE https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/train-tickets/how-to-get-cheap-train-tickets/are-you-a-jobseeker

TFL https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/jobcentre-plus-travel-discount

SWR https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ds-and-discounts/jobcentre-plus-discount-card

GA https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/season-tickets/job-track-scheme

Scotrail https://www.scotrail.co.uk/commuter/jobcentre-plus-travel-discount-card-scheme

as 10 seconds on Google (other search engines are available) would have shown you.

 

[yorksrob]

The Jobcentre plus railcard might help a few people in a tight spot, however it won't bring transformational change to people on lower incomes.

 

[BrianW]

Avanti have it on their website as do:

GWR https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/railcards/jobcentre-plus-discount-card

TPE https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/train-tickets/how-to-get-cheap-train-tickets/are-you-a-jobseeker

TFL https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/jobcentre-plus-travel-discount

SWR https://www.southwesternrailway.com...ds-and-discounts/jobcentre-plus-discount-card

GA https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/season-tickets/job-track-scheme

Scotrail https://www.scotrail.co.uk/commuter/jobcentre-plus-travel-discount-card-scheme

as 10 seconds on Google (other search engines are available) would have shown you.

Thnk you; that has saved me alot more tahn 10 seconds- typing takes me an age since I had a stroke last year, esp when I feel need to take longer to correct spelling prior to input ...

I am glad that those sites connect; I'm hoping I may be wrong to have cticised the NR website.

thank you for your supprt

 

[Dr Hoo]

Trying to think a bit more 'out of the box', I was intrigued by this poster that I saw at Stockport station. (I get that the whole idea of advertising is to pique interest in a product.)

I haven't got the faintest idea how mobile phone contracts work - mine is covered under some sort of 'family bundle' - but the poster seems to suggest that the 'poor' can just walk into an O2 shop and get 'free data'. Would a parallel be that people would walk into a booking office, show the clerk that they're skint and get 'free tickets'? (Image shows a huge billboard stating "We're giving free data to those who need it most. If you're struggling, ask for the National Databank in any O2 store".)

 

[yorksrob]

Trying to think a bit more 'out of the box', I was intrigued by this poster that I saw at Stockport station. (I get that the whole idea of advertising is to pique interest in a product.)

I haven't got the faintest idea how mobile phone contracts work - mine is covered under some sort of 'family bundle' - but the poster seems to suggest that the 'poor' can just walk into an O2 shop and get 'free data'. Would a parallel be that people would walk into a booking office, show the clerk that they're skint and get 'free tickets'? (Image shows a huge billboard stating "We're giving free data to those who need it most. If you're struggling, ask for the National Databank in any O2 store".)


View attachment 169478

It sounds as though its a similar concept to fuel or food banks. My knowledge on this is limited, however I understand that in those cases, there is little by way of an eligibility check, however the number of times you can use it will be limited.

Of course, my proposal wouldn't involve anyone walking in and getting free tickets (unless they had an RTV perhaps).

 

[Indigo Soup]

Yes, we're always told that the sky will fall in, as soon as someone mentions making rail travel more affordable (it didn't when Scotrail abolished peak fares).

One of the lobbying groups did a study perhaps 15 years ago into a National Railcard. Their conclusion was that a railcard available to anyone could be revenue-positive, and the modelling suggested (IIRC) that the most favourable for railway finances was a £50 up-front cost for one year, giving one-third discount on Off-Peak travel.

Infrequent travellers and commuters would still pay full fare, but the expected stimulus to demand for off-peak travel was projected to be worth more than the loss in revenue.

As far as a low-income railcard goes... one might suggest that a fairer approach would be to set fares at a sensible level, and use the tax and benefit systems for redistributive purposes. What we currently have is an agglomeration of bits and pieces that don't work coherently, leading to the various 'income traps' mentioned above.

 

[Mgameing123]

That's an interesting point. However if you just cut the baseline fare, there's nothing to benchmark it against, so they'll just put it up to what it was anyway.

Same thing happens with my broadband provider. Whatever I do to change the package, it always just goes back to what it would have been anyway !

By removing railcard it would make rail ticketing a little less confusing than it is now.

 

[HSTEd]

One of the lobbying groups did a study perhaps 15 years ago into a National Railcard. Their conclusion was that a railcard available to anyone could be revenue-positive, and the modelling suggested (IIRC) that the most favourable for railway finances was a £50 up-front cost for one year, giving one-third discount on Off-Peak travel.

Infrequent travellers and commuters would still pay full fare, but the expected stimulus to demand for off-peak travel was projected to be worth more than the loss in revenue.

Ofcourse £50 15 years ago is something like £80 today, and obviously fares have increased faster than inflation.

So to achieve the same impact you are probably pushing £90.
Very different to the current Railcard system