Could CrossCountry use Mk4 coaches with HST power cars?

[Metal_gee_man]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/dft-and-crosscountry-rule-out-surplus-hst%E2%80%99s-as-a-capacity-relief.194180/page-2

Good question here, will the MK4 coaches with power doors that are coupled to the class 91s with LNER work with Class 43 units, because that then provides the PRM compliant carriages with a Diesel loco in the short term.

 

[modernrail]

Would it have to be HST sets? If TfW are really going to get MKiV sets up and running on diesel as quickly as they hope to, is that not a much more compliant and sensible short term measure? Those carriages are also available now, are fully compliant, have DVT's so only one loco required and there appear to be locos in the market.

I am not sure I see any advantages in thinking about HST over MKIV, although both are clearly speculative.

 

[modernrail]

Good question here, will the MK4 coaches with power doors that are coupled to the class 91s with LNER work with Class 43 units, because that then provides the PRM compliant carriages with a Diesel loco in the short term.

Why go with Class 43 over units that TfW are already making to work. Would the Class 43 shift more carriages at the right speeds?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Why go with Class 43 over units that TfW are already making to work. Would the Class 43 shift more carriages at the right speeds?

Again good question, I would argue that the old class 37 isn't upto the job for XC but is suitable for Valley working in TfW colours.
Are there any class 68s or class 88s (Bi-Mode 66s) floating about because they have better acceleration than a pair of class 43s and geared for lower speeds add 5 or 6 MK4 coaches a la Chiltern and you have a nice long distance train for XC.

 

[swt_passenger]

Good question here, will the MK4 coaches with power doors that are coupled to the class 91s with LNER work with Class 43 units, because that then provides the PRM compliant carriages with a Diesel loco in the short term.

No they don’t work together. Explained many times previously.

 

[elliotjelliot]

No they don’t work together. Explained many times previously.

I have read before, but cannot find the article now, that MAN or Paxman did offer to uprate the EMT/EMR HST's with Paxman engines to haul mk4 carriages amid speculation MK4s may be used on the MML. Obviously that is not happening now but it is relevant to this thread.

 

[cactustwirly]

I have read before, but cannot find the article now, that MAN or Paxman did offer to uprate the EMT/EMR HST's with Paxman engines to haul mk4 carriages amid speculation MK4s may be used on the MML. Obviously that is not happening now but it is relevant to this thread.

That isn't the issue, the HSTs have plenty of power, it's that the electrics are incompatible with HST electrics so they would need to be re-wired.
Plus the Mk4s aren't cleared on the MML (Derby - Leeds) nor are they cleared through Birmingham down to Plymouth, and I suspect there will need to be expensive platform alterations.

 

[elliotjelliot]

That isn't the issue, the HSTs have plenty of power, it's that the electrics are incompatible with HST electrics so they would need to be re-wired.
Plus the Mk4s aren't cleared on the MML (Derby - Leeds) nor are they cleared through Birmingham down to Plymouth, and I suspect there will need to be expensive platform alterations.

I do not dispute the issues with the electrics, neither do I dispute the gauging issues, but the article did point to fact they did need a slight power upgrade as a rake of MK4s are considerably heavier than a rake MK3s. I'm sure they could haul them in their current state, my feeling is that its an issue of acceleration/efficiency improvements.

 

[xotGD]

If CrossCountry were to use Mark 4s, the easiest way is on Manchester - Birmingham shuttles with Class 90s.

 

[hexagon789]

I do not dispute the issues with the electrics, neither do I dispute the gauging issues, but the article did point to fact they did need a slight power upgrade as a rake of MK4s are considerably heavier than a rake MK3s. I'm sure they could haul them in their current state, my feeling is that its an issue of acceleration/efficiency improvements.

It's not simply the extra power to cope with the extra weight of Mk4 coaches, the HST power cars have a completely different electrical system, different couplers, different multiple working system, no controls for the doors and for such a sort period of use, as indeed any use its not viable.

They may as well order a brand-new fleet as it will likely be nearly as quick the way these engineering things go these days. It'll need to be done at some point, so you might as well do it now.

 

[The Planner]

If CrossCountry were to use Mark 4s, the easiest way is on Manchester - Birmingham shuttles with Class 90s.

What shuttles?

 

[swt_passenger]

I have read before, but cannot find the article now, that MAN or Paxman did offer to uprate the EMT/EMR HST's with Paxman engines to haul mk4 carriages amid speculation MK4s may be used on the MML. Obviously that is not happening now but it is relevant to this thread.

But only if XC wanted to use 9 car sets? But as others replied, there are far more issues than weight of the coaches.

 

[JonathanH]

If CrossCountry were to use Mark 4s, the easiest way is on Manchester - Birmingham shuttles with Class 90s.

What shuttles?

I wonder if the OP's suggestion is running Exeter / Bristol to Bournemouth via Birmingham using Voyagers and Manchester to Birmingham International using 90s+Mk4, not that the timings come anywhere close to matching up.

 

[gingertom]

maybe consider a pair of 67s top and tail a rake of 8/9 MK4s. No issues with the ETH, higher power. Track access charges and costs will be high if allowed to run at up to 125mph though. Assuming of course that that 67s can operate in multiple top and tail.