Could other operators make use of unwanted stock from Scotrail?

[JumpinTrainz]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail’s-new-trains-procurement-programme.235459

I’m surprised that SR are looking to replace their 334s which won’t even be 30 years old by the time they are replaced. I still see them as modern stock.

It makes total sense, however to do a bulk replacement order on North Clyde and Argyle Lines and have them all suitable to operate the A-B section. I think a more standard fleet is what is needed and something more practical than what we have just now. 5x 23m sounds probably more practical although 6x 23 would be ideal considering the 380s and 385s are also this length and it keeps the fleet fairly standard.

 

[Peter0124]

Will the 334s goto another train operator?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Will the 334s goto another train operator?

Almost definitely not. The future of those is speculative though until the inevitable news that they’ll be scrapped is made public.

 

[Strathclyder]

I’m surprised that SR are looking to replace their 334s which won’t even be 30 years old by the time they are replaced. I still see them as modern stock.

If/when they do end getting replaced as part of this plan, they at least will have done a bit better than the 311s, which didn't even crack 25 years overall (though I know that the circumstances there were markedly different).

Will the 334s goto another train operator?

A smidge too early to tell right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll end up going the way the 365s have.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

If/when they do end getting replaced as part of this plan, they at least will have done a bit better than the 311s, which didn't even crack 25 years overall (though I know that the circumstances there were markedly different).


Indeed, this is what it looked like in July 1976 after the line was first closed and before it was reopened as part of the Argyle Line project (clearly whatever had there before had been flattened), prior to the Westergate block being built on the site in the mid/late 80s.


A smidge too early to tell right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll end up going the way the 365s have.

Scrapping the 334s seems wrong for such modern units. It’s a shame they couldn’t go elsewhere as they are good units. I remember them on the Ayr line.

 

[snowball]

The overall stock replacement programme is scheduled is to last until 2035 (and may slip beyond that) so maybe a way will be found to keep the 334s until towards the end.

 

[tbtc]

Will the 334s goto another train operator?

Whilst other EMUs seem to be getting scrapped prematurely (332s, 360/2s), one thing that the 334s have going for them is that they are at least a fleet of three coach units, so can offer lengths other than the many fleets of 4x20m long EMUs that have no long term future guaranteed just yet (350/2s, 379s etc)

For example, whilst Northern are increasing their fleet of 323s, in five/ten years time they might decide to get something younger to replace them (bearing in mind that Northern generally gets cascaded stock rather than new builds)… if we are talking direct replacement then they’d be looking for around forty EMUs that were three coaches long (there are 43x323s), hmm…

The 334s will have had at least quarter of a century since being built in the 1990s, which is still a good lifespan, and I’d presume they’d be at the back of the queue for units to be directly replaced (as @snowball says)… Maybe they’ll have thirty years of active service… i don’t think that we need to sweat all assets for four decades until we can consider scrapping them

 

[Energy]

The 334s will have had at least quarter of a century since being built in the 1990s, which is still a good lifespan, and I’d presume they’d be at the back of the queue for units to be directly replaced (as @snowball says)… Maybe they’ll have thirty years of active service… i don’t think that we need to sweat all assets for four decades until we can consider scrapping them

The 319s were about 30 years old when replaced at Thameslink (and subsequently sent to be terrible at Northern), the 321s are of a similar age as well.

For example, whilst Northern are increasing their fleet of 323s, in five/ten years time they might decide to get something younger to replace them (bearing in mind that Northern generally gets cascaded stock rather than new builds)… if we are talking direct replacement then they’d be looking for around forty EMUs that were three coaches long (there are 43x323s), hmm…

Northern is a good point, 20m isn't ideal but the 334s would be a good cheap replacement.

If SR doesn't replace the 334s under this then they will always have a fleet of ~43 trains very different from the rest.

 

[Razorblades]

The 319s were about 30 years old when replaced at Thameslink (and subsequently sent to be terrible at Northern), the 321s are of a similar age as well.

Northern is a good point, 20m isn't ideal but the 334s would be a good cheap replacement.

If SR doesn't replace the 334s under this then they will always have a fleet of ~43 trains very different from the rest.

By the expected time/ rate of replacement, and presuming the existing classes are retired in age order, the 334s (into service 2001) would be surplus around 2030, so that would be that for the Junipers.

It's unrealistic to think that other regions will be waiting with bated breath for 120 exhausted, non-standard vehicles to be cascaded out of Glasgow. It's a wannabe solution to a non-existent problem.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

By the expected time/ rate of replacement, and presuming the existing classes are retired in age order, the 334s (into service 2001) would be surplus around 2030, so that would be that for the Junipers.

It's unrealistic to think that other regions will be waiting with bated breath for 120 exhausted, non-standard vehicles to be cascaded out of Glasgow. It's a wannabe solution to a non-existent problem.

True. It makes sense to do a batch order and have more of a uniform fleet.

 

[Razorblades]

True. It makes sense to do a batch order and have more of a uniform fleet.

That is absolutely the intention of ScotRail Trains (SRT) in this instance.

 

[tbtc]

It's unrealistic to think that other regions will be waiting with bated breath for 120 exhausted, non-standard vehicles to be cascaded out of Glasgow. It's a wannabe solution to a non-existent problem.

Oh, you’d have to be desperate to want these thirty year old trains (the age they will roughly be)

Which is why Northern feels such a natural destination for them, what with their 323s reaching forty years of age at about the same time

Maybe we’ll be into another decade of Liz Truss “levelling up” the north/south divide by then, and Northern will have the funds to order brand new trains, but realistically I’d expect the 323 replacement budget to be fairly cheap and forty 334s would have another decade of life in them so still worth a cheap refurb

The maths isn’t perfect (43x323 vs 40x334, the Juniper carriages are shorter too), but how many other fleets of three coach EMUs are likely to be on the second hand market in 2030?

 

[Razorblades]

The maths isn’t perfect (43x323 vs 40x334, the Juniper carriages are shorter too), but how many other fleets of three coach EMUs are likely to be on the second hand market in 2030?

Not only isn't the maths perfect, the capacities are completely unsuitable (178 seats on a 334, 275 on a 323).

The 334s are off for scrap if they leave Strathclyde in 2030, it's a blind-alley suggesting otherwise.

 

[Peter0124]

I can't imagine seeing 334s in Northern colours working out of Manchester Piccadilly but anything is possible

Also how do 323s have nearly 100 more seats when they're also 3 coach units?

 

[mightyena]

I can't imagine seeing 334s in Northern colours working out of Manchester Piccadilly but anything is possible

Also how do 323s have nearly 100 more seats when they're also 3 coach units?

Seating configuration. A 323 is around 10m longer than a 334, and has 3+2 seating vs the 2+2 in the 334. It'll be the 3+2 vs 2+2 that makes most of the difference.

 

[tbtc]

how do 323s have nearly 100 more seats when they're also 3 coach units?

They have 3+2 seats crammed into them, I think they are quite wide considering they are 23m carriages (not sure how much this restricts their Route Availability, but I guess they have only ever operated on a fairly limited number of electrified lines around Manchester/Birmingham so it doesn’t matter if they can’t go much further)

 

[Strathclyder]

Seating configuration. A 323 is around 10m longer than a 334, and has 3+2 seating vs the 2+2 in the 334. It'll be the 3+2 vs 2+2 that makes most of the difference.

Not to be 'that guy', but the 334s have 3+2 seating in the PTOS vehicle (barring the part of that vehicle taken up by the toilet ofc), but yeah, 2+2 v. 3+2 seating does indeed make the difference.

 

[JonathanH]

Note that the contemporary 458s and 175s were found to have a lot of corrosion when they have been overhauled, so the 334s may not have a long life.

 

[yorksrob]

Your 156's would probably be more useful !

 

[tomuk]

They have 3+2 seats crammed into them, I think they are quite wide considering they are 23m carriages (not sure how much this restricts their Route Availability, but I guess they have only ever operated on a fairly limited number of electrified lines around Manchester/Birmingham so it doesn’t matter if they can’t go much further)

Yes they are quite wide, but have tapered ends so can go to a lot of places a 'straight' 23m MU like a 165/166 can't. It was one of the innovations of the 323s. Provincial\Regional Railways wanted a 'better' Networker.

Note that the contemporary 458s and 175s were found to have a lot of corrosion when they have been overhauled, so the 334s may not have a long life.

I believe the corrosion varies from fleet to fleet as Alstom had the bodyshells built at various factories.

 

[fgwrich]

Yes they are quite wide, but have tapered ends so can go to a lot of places a 'straight' 23m MU like a 165/166 can't. It was one of the innovations of the 323s. Provincial\Regional Railways wanted a 'better' Networker.


I believe the corrosion varies from fleet to fleet as Alstom had the bodyshells built at various factories.

I believe all the Juniper bodies were from the same factory, so potentially would be if not already suffering the same level of corrosion as their South Western cousins. Personally, I cant see them finding a use elsewhere - from my trips on them on the Bathgate line over the last few years, I would say they aren't in the best of condition and do feel somewhat tired.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I believe all the Juniper bodies were from the same factory, so potentially would be if not already suffering the same level of corrosion as their South Western cousins. Personally, I cant see them finding a use elsewhere - from my trips on them on the Bathgate line over the last few years, I would say they aren't in the best of condition and do feel somewhat tired.

I’ve always been a big fan of the 334s. I remember them from new on the Ayrshire line and then on my local line. I always preferred them to the 318s and 330s which definitely are showing their age now. Internally they’re very smart but it’s obvious they are older trains. I’ve never felt that with the 334s. I think they were a bit troublesome at the beginning and their lack of tables always bugged me but they are great units.

Someone made a very valid point that 30 years service is still exceptional. Who says trains have to be 40+ and run to the ground. Personally I think the 314s were dragged out. They should have been gone years ago yet they lasted 40 years.

 

[snowball]

I’ve always been a big fan of the 334s. I remember them from new on the Ayrshire line and then on my local line. I always preferred them to the 318s and 330s which definitely are showing their age now. Internally they’re very smart but it’s obvious they are older trains. I’ve never felt that with the 334s. I think they were a bit troublesome at the beginning and their lack of tables always bugged me but they are great units.

Someone made a very valid point that 30 years service is still exceptional. Who says trains have to be 40+ and run to the ground. Personally I think the 314s were dragged out. They should have been gone years ago yet they lasted 40 years.

40 years is often regarded as normal for EMUs.

 

[tomuk]

I believe all the Juniper bodies were from the same factory, so potentially would be if not already suffering the same level of corrosion as their South Western cousins. Personally, I cant see them finding a use elsewhere - from my trips on them on the Bathgate line over the last few years, I would say they aren't in the best of condition and do feel somewhat tired.

I've had a check and 120 Juniper bodyshells were built by Ganz in Hungary. The 175 bodies were built in Barcelona

 

[XAM2175]

Not to be 'that guy', but the 334s have 3+2 seating in the PTOS vehicle (barring the part of that vehicle taken up by the toilet ofc), but yeah, 2+2 v. 3+2 seating does indeed make the difference.

All true, but remember that there's also the wheelchair spaces, and IIRC the section at the end of the car opposite to the toilet is also 2+2, so the actual 3+2 block is really quite small.

 

[Rick1984]

Among the last trains to built without AC. Beaten only by the class 376?

 

[RobShipway]

I've had a check and 120 Juniper bodyshells were built by Ganz in Hungary. The 175 bodies were built in Barcelona

Was it just the 334's that had bodyshells built in Ganz? I am presuming that the class 180 bodies where built in Barcelona?

 

[Ex-controller]

Among the last trains to built without AC. Beaten only by the class 376?

334s? No pretty sure they’re air conditioned.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

334s? No pretty sure they’re air conditioned.

Yes they were fitted with aircon a few years back along with WiFi.

 

[tomuk]

Was it just the 334's that had bodyshells built in Ganz? I am presuming that the class 180 bodies where built in Barcelona?

180s were Barcelona too.