Could someone explain why ASLEF want Sundays inside the working week?

[12LDA28C]

So just paid an extra, say, 8 or 12 hours, depending on the length of the Sunday turn, at basic rate, not at say time + quarter or half?

If Sundays were made part of the working week, would Drivers be prepared to accept the reduced hours at the cost of losing that additional take home pay, or would a compensatory increase in basic rate of pay be required?

Several TOCs just pay, as you say, a flat rate for Sunday hours worked. If your Sunday turn is 9 hours 20 minutes, you get paid for 9 hours 20 minutes at your basic hourly rate, although you may get a Sunday allowance which would be a fixed amount, say £80.

It's generally believed that if Sundays are brought into the working week, there would be no reduction in salary from the amount earnt by working rostered Sundays, but of course the TOCs would have to employ many more drivers to cover the additional vacant turns in the week that drivers are now enjoying as their Rest Day.

 

[43066]

If Sundays were made part of the working week, would Drivers be prepared to accept the reduced hours at the cost of losing that additional take home pay, or would a compensatory increase in basic rate of pay be required?

Generally there will be a one off increase in pay for agreement to vary the conditions and bring Sundays inside. Those drivers who had Sundays outside would continue to work a four day week, but now including Sundays. Those who had committed Sundays would drop to a true 4 day week instead of a (say) 4.25 day week if they have to do one committed Sunday per month, but with the loss of Sunday payment.

You’re right that there is a loss of a guaranteed overtime payments. However, for those with committed Sundays, the quid pro quo is the loss of enforced overtime spent at work. Drivers are of course free to work rest days (at the prevailing overtime rate, but subject to overtime being available) to make this up if they wish.

The best way to do it, as my TOC did, is to give existing drivers the choice of bringing Sundays inside for a pay rise, or remaining outside, with separate links for the two groups. The vast majority will take the money! New drivers, depot movers etc. all have Sundays inside from the outset. Of course this requires the money being available to increase establishment levels!

Only a few years on at my depot there is a small handful of drivers still with Sundays outside with an establishment approaching 90. This will dwindle to zero in short order as they’re all close to retirement age.

 

[Falcon1200]

The best way to do it, as my TOC did, is to give existing drivers the choice of bringing Sundays inside for a pay rise, or remaining outside, with separate links for the two groups. The vast majority will take the money!

That does seem a sensible way to, eventually, resolve the issue. Thanks.

 

[Tubby]

There's an article explaining some of this in the current Modern Railways.

 

[officewalla]

I work most of my Sundays and the pattern is Sunday on off Sunday 3 off and repeat so equates to 17 Sundays a year. Time and a quarter with 6 and a quarter hours the minimum pay. Have been easy to get rid off in the past with some drivers never working a Sunday and others having taken up the slack on 30+ Sundays. Things are changing though as RDW is now guaranteed 9.5 hours at time and a half so Sundays no longer as attractive as RDW and there are drivers on 30+ RD as well as 30+ Sundays. That is another £25k+ to base salary.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Finally, I think that the covid pandemic led to a cultural change regarding work-life balance, with more appreciation that people work to live, not live to work.

A very key point that should not be underestimated imho.

 

[Moonshot]

A very key point that should not be underestimated imho.

Completely agree with that......the time off defo has more value in it than the money

 

[dk1]

Finally, I think that the covid pandemic led to a cultural change regarding work-life balance, with more appreciation that people work to live, not live to work.

That wasn’t quite so relevant in the railway industry. We worked throughout as normal.

 

[Bald Rick]

The best way to do it, as my TOC did, is to give existing drivers the choice of bringing Sundays inside for a pay rise, or remaining outside, with separate links for the two groups. The vast majority will take the money! New drivers, depot movers etc. all have Sundays inside from the outset. Of course this requires the money being available to increase establishment levels!

I agree that this is the most practical, and therefore sensible way to do this.

Unfortunately, ASLEF do not agree. I have heard of very strong local resistance at some TOCs where this has been floated.

 

[muz379]

Ultimately a unions position should always be for full employment /no reliance on overtime . That is why often rest day working agreements are also stated as being for training . Even if that is then often misused by operators .

This might not fit in with all drivers views or preferences to make as much extra money as possible , although anecdotally in my experience when I was traincrew I knew just as many drivers that didn't work any voluntary overtime than those that hoovered up as much as they could get .

If Sundays are outside the working week, but also rostered, they are indeed guaranteed overtime.

Depends on what agreements say , could also have agreements that say is sundays are cancelled so far in advance because of engineering work jobs can be canelled and people not brough in on their sunday s .

That wasn’t quite so relevant in the railway industry. We worked throughout as normal.

I actually did think there was a culture change with more people forgoing their overtime both during and after .I think mainly because there expenses were masively reduced . And they found they valued time with their family much more . I dont think that fully went back to normal afterwards with noticably less people volunteering for overtime .

We had a period during it as well when there was very few Rest days being offerend because the timetable was so reduced so I think some people got used to living without it .

 

[43066]

Unfortunately, ASLEF do not agree. I have heard of very strong local resistance at some TOCs where this has been floated.

Where has Sundays being brought inside the week been proposed recently? The last few years have been all about trying to push through committed Sundays, ie enforced overtime.

ASLEF have certainly agreed to it in the past, at my TOC and others, and the union does officially want Sundays inside the week, as per the thread title. The vast majority of staff I speak to (other than a few ex BR types, of whom there are dwindling numbers these days) prefer Sundays inside.

 

[dk1]

I actually did think there was a culture change with more people forgoing their overtime both during and after .I think mainly because there expenses were masively reduced . And they found they valued time with their family much more . I dont think that fully went back to normal afterwards with noticably less people volunteering for overtime .

We had a period during it as well when there was very few Rest days being offerend because the timetable was so reduced so I think some people got used to living without it .

I haven’t noticed that personally. The extra hours/money are as much as a draw as ever. Many were glad to get away from family especially as they there was no getting away from them at that time apart from escaping to work.

 

[snookertam]

I agree that this is the most practical, and therefore sensible way to do this.

Unfortunately, ASLEF do not agree. I have heard of very strong local resistance at some TOCs where this has been floated.

I can see attitudes differing depending on the TOC in question, if they leave it to members to lead he approach locally.

I’m willing to bet anyone pound to a penny that at ScotRail, all the tea in China could not convince drivers to bring Sunday into the working week. The recent dispute will have made it clear to them the extent to which the current set up leaves them holding all the aces in any future pay negotiations.

 

[chuff chuff]

I’m willing to bet anyone pound to a penny that at ScotRail, all the tea in China could not convince drivers to bring Sunday into the working week. The recent dispute will have made it clear to them the extent to which the current set up leaves them holding all the aces in any future pay negotiations.

Well there would be some going by the pound signs I could see in some of my colleagues eyes but yeah Sundays could become more important in disputes as the recruitment will probably reduce the amount of RDW.....maybe.

 

[Magdalia]

That wasn’t quite so relevant in the railway industry. We worked throughout as normal.

People who work in the railway industry have family and friends who do not.

And, even for those working, the pandemic could lead to a realisation that work life balance could be different.

 

[dk1]

People who work in the railway industry have family and friends who do not.

And, even for those working, the pandemic could lead to a realisation that work life balance could be different.

Maybe for some but I’ve not noticed much difference since.

Things soon returned to the status quo as far as our depot is concerned and that was before the pandemic finished.

 

[43066]

I can see attitudes differing depending on the TOC in question, if they leave it to members to lead he approach locally.

Why should attitudes vary between TOC? It has successfully been brought in many places and driver demographics don’t vary that widely.

All that needs to happen is for an offer to be acceptable to most members to be proposed. Many will want the pay rise and, so long as it’s made clear that those who want to can keep their Sundays outside, there’s little reason for them to object. Then you simply set up two links.

I suspect the sticking point is simply that the employer’s/DfT’s preference is to continue to rely on overtime - whether voluntary or enforced - because it’s cheaper…

I’m willing to bet anyone pound to a penny that at ScotRail, all the tea in China could not convince drivers to bring Sunday into the working week. The recent dispute will have made it clear to them the extent to which the current set up leaves them holding all the aces in any future pay negotiations.

You’ve said this several times, but what do you actually base this on? I’m assuming you haven’t done a straw poll of Scotrail drivers. Has it ever actually been proposed by the company and rejected by ASLEF?

It’s fairly clear that ASLEF can cause disruption on all days of the week just by withdrawing overtime and working to rule, so there’s little need to keep Sundays outside as some sort of trump card.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I’d be more than happy to have them in the week but to the best of my knowledge it hasn’t ever been in the table at my TOC. Guaranteed three days off a week sounds great, not fussed when those three are.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Why should attitudes vary between TOC? It has successfully been brought in many places and driver demographics don’t vary that widely.

All that needs to happen is for an offer to be acceptable to most members to be proposed. Many will want the pay rise and, so long as it’s made clear that those who want to can keep their Sundays outside, there’s little reason for them to object. Then you simply set up two links.

This doesn't seem to be what happens, at least in one case. A driver I know was in the position of not wanting to work Sundays for good reasons* but, when there was a majority in favour when put to a vote, he was then forced to have Sundays inside. South Eastern Trains. Hasn't been able to get many Sundays off when he wants to since. He wasn't happy - he thought that the reason for favouring the change was, in many cases, to put it bluntly a greater interest in money than having a social life an order of priority he obviously doesn't share.
Presumably a T.O.C. that allowed drivers to retain outside Sundays would have two salary ranges for those with inside and outside Sundays
* 1) happy with his earnings for a standard week 2) liked taking his preserved buses to bus rallies, which are almost always on Sundays.

 

[Bald Rick]

Where has Sundays being brought inside the week been proposed recently?

that depends on the definition of ‘proposed’, but lots of things are discussed at informal meetings with reps ‘off the record’ to test the water.

Why should attitudes vary between TOC? It has successfully been brought in many places and driver demographics don’t vary that widely.

bluntly, the variation is often because of the differing beliefs / attitudes of the different full time reps.

 

[XCDriver]

Please understand my main point, in my previous post, which is that we are now working Sundays SO REGULARLY, INSTEAD OF JUST OCCASIONALLY, AS IN YEARS GONE BY, because train operators are cashing in on leisure day travelling (weekends, bank holidays etc where everyone wants to hop on a train, instead of sitting in their back gardens like they used to).

"Hey! It's Friday! Let's spend the next 3 days going intae Manc by train n having a great time! Clubbing Friday Gig on Saturday Footie on Sunday! Kerching! Kids in tow, shops all open! TOC's just making money shipping ppl about and so they run more trains"

So who has to pay the biggest price for all that leisure n luxury lifestyle?

TRAINCREW!

We demand Sunday as part of our regular, normal week, because it has become that!

I know quite a lot of you were not even born, or were too young to know, when Sunday trading laws came in, in 1994 ... 30 years ago now!

Trains were fixed up in depots ready for Monday, the PWAY was fixed up ready for Monday, and the T3's even if they over ran were completed ready for Monday.

Now its a f&%kin' joke railway.

My last gift to my newer and equally skillled drivers and other fellow railway staff is to get in a 4 day week over 7 days, which will make employers employ more staff and give us 3 guaranteed days off every week. not 2 and one if we can not be forced to work it.

In response to questions about TOC's and Trade Union's attitudes regarding Sundays "inside" as we say in ASLEF and the RMT, the TOC's know it means more drivers, overall, but know that it guarantees a Sunday timetable too.

ASLEF and the RMT know this too, which is good for their personal gain. More members!

But the cheapest option for TOC's atm is to have Sundays rostered where we are made to work them if there is no-one else available.

Drivers who chase the extra bucks, will never like anything like this, but they are always going to be the minority, and even the case for wanting a day off on a Sunday and having to use a floating leave day (if Sunday becomes a normal day of work) is not a good enough reason for keeping Sundays outside, when the alternative at this point in time is that you are continually "leave declined" every time you try and not work your booked Sunday, and there is no-one else to do it for you!

 

[richw]

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

 

[dk1]

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

As someone who detests Sunday as a day and always have, It's my first choice day to be driving trains. Infact my record is 11 consecutive worked. Having committed Sundays mean we rarely have any difficulties in cover8ng them either.

Give me midweek rest days anytime although I am partial to the odd Saturday too.

 

[Harpo]

There are already TOCs with staff on differing old/new (or TUPE’d) conditions bringing cross-cover problems.

The suggestion of creating yet more parallel T&Cs with depots where some staff are Sundays in, and others out, is the stuff of nightmares.

Depots within depots needs entirely separate balancing rosters maintaining all competencies. As already happens at some places, it becomes cheaper (DfT love that) to have variations in route/traction competencies. However, like so many cost-cutting plans, this hits flexibility and resilience and can in turn exacerbate Sunday cover issues.

The Mailgraphexpress will never say it, but it isn’t the staff side wanting both the penny and the bun.

 

[baz962]

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

To be fair as a young man and long before I was on the railway I was the same. But now I would rather be off on a Sunday. They are inside at our place but we do roughly one in three and with leave days I don't do many. Sometimes if there is engineering work we can have nice days that do just two stops or can't do anything if they are between our depot and the first or second station we serve. However our worst jobs are on the weekend and sometimes travelling to work on packed trains isn't great. Also my wife doesn't work weekends and we often have our grandchildren over and I go to football. Horses for courses they say.

 

[officewalla]

It is hard enough maintaining any sort of social life when 2 out of 3 Sats are working days without making Sunday part of the jigsaw. Strangely enough, our friends are without exception off on Sundays and mostly Saturday as well. I for one do not want to lose any more Sundays than I already do unless there is a roster piece of magic that will always align a weekend off.

 

[66701GBRF]

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

Why does it have to come down to having kids or going to church? Perhaps people like to go out (if they can) on a Saturday day/night and not have to worry about working the next day, perhaps it's used as a time to see other family or friends or partake in a weekend sport?

 

[chuff chuff]

It is hard enough maintaining any sort of social life when 2 out of 3 Sats are working days without making Sunday part of the jigsaw. Strangely enough, our friends are without exception off on Sundays and mostly Saturday as well. I for one do not want to lose any more Sundays than I already do unless there is a roster piece of magic that will always align a weekend off.

Why does it have to come down to having kids or going to church? Perhaps people like to go out (if they can) on a Saturday day/night and not have to worry about working the next day, perhaps it's used as a time to see other family or friends or partake in a weekend sport?

This.

 

[muz379]

Why is there such an obsession in having Sundays off? Unless you have kids and want to spend the day with them or go to church, I can’t think of any reason to not want to work Sunday.
I’ve kids, but if I didn’t i would quite happily work most Sundays as I find a weekday off is far more productive. Places are quieter for an outing and there’s less screaming kids everywhere, making the day off far more enjoyable. Tuesdays and Wednesdays especially seem to be very quiet in the big stores and that makes me less stressed doing my shopping. Alternatively I could go on a Sunday when it’s rammed, and I have to spend ages queuing for a parking space to find larger crowds inside the store. Ultimate hell for me when places are busy like that.

Railway staff don't exist in a vacuum ,even without kids many have families and friends who don't work at weekends . Sporting fixtures often take place on weekends as well .

I think most people that work in front line operations in the industry understand that an element of weekend working is inevitable , but I think it is entirely right ot want this to be included in your normal working week , instead of the current arrangement in a lot of places where you work your contracted hours and then have to work an additional days overtime unless someone else volunteers to cover it .

 

[dk1]

Working as we do you just learn to accept it and live your life around your job which is often why most friends are often within the same group of people. Family life tends to revolve around it.