Could the Atherton line become part of Metrolink, and would that disbenefit passengers?

[Greybeard33]

In the GM Metrolink and Rail Subcommittee meeting on 3rd March 2023, a Wigan councillor asked about the timescale for tram-trains to Wigan via Atherton. In reply, Danny Vaughan, TfGM Head of Metrolink, did not give any dates. But he made clear that GM tram-trains, if they ever happen, will be a long way in the future. Furthermore, the Atherton line is well down the priority list. TfGM is initially focusing on a pathfinder scheme from Rochdale to Heywood, possibly later extending into an orbital route.
The webcast of the meeting can be viewed at

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In the latest version of the Salford Crescent Masterplan, the renders no longer show a tram line towards Pendleton/Atherton, which had been in previous drafts.

 

[geordieblue]

Not really. How do you know how many stops the tram would make, where it would deviate from the existing route and where it would do on-street running ?

All we can do is make an assumption that it will do a selection of these things because that's what trams tend to do.



Actually, the train service offers a range of options. I've changed at Salford Crescent for the Southern stations on several occasions.

I'm going to ask you one question. In Tyne and Wear, Heworth station has a direct train to Newcastle. No intermediate stops. Toilets on the train, services usually extend to Carlisle at one end and Middlesbrough at the other.
Meanwhile Heworth also has a Metro service to Newcastle. Stops three times and is slower. No toilets. Only runs on to the Airport or North/South Shields.
Which is used more do you reckon? Train or Metro?

 

[yorksrob]

I'm going to ask you one question. In Tyne and Wear, Heworth station has a direct train to Newcastle. No intermediate stops. Toilets on the train, services usually extend to Carlisle at one end and Middlesbrough at the other.
Meanwhile Heworth also has a Metro service to Newcastle. Stops three times and is slower. No toilets. Only runs on to the Airport or North/South Shields.
Which is used more do you reckon? Train or Metro?

The Tyne and Wear system is a true metro with its own way and tunnels. It is not a tram.

That said, lack of toilets could still be tricky on some of the longer sections.

You could say its suited to what it does, whereas lines to Morpeth and soon Blythe (which seem more similar to the Atherton line) are better suited to heavy rail.

 

[geordieblue]

The Tyne and Wear system is a true metro with its own way and tunnels. It is not a tram.

That said, lack of toilets could still be tricky on some of the longer sections.

You could say its suited to what it does, whereas lines to Morpeth and soon Blythe (which seem more similar to the Atherton line) are better suited to heavy rail.

Thing is you know the answer but refuse to engage - local people far far prefer simplicity and frequency over speed. If Atherton was converted to Metrolink and put in a tunnel under Manchester would you prefer that?

 

[yorksrob]

Thing is you know the answer but refuse to engage - local people far far prefer simplicity and frequency over speed. If Atherton was converted to Metrolink and put in a tunnel under Manchester would you prefer that?

I'm engaging all the time. If Metrolink were turned into a true metro service with separate infrastructure, that would of course be better than an add on to the tram network. It would still lose benefits such as through services beyond Wigan/Manchester and toilets on trains.

I use a suburban-ish service into Leeds daily. It also takes around half an hour. My train is hourly and I would very much welcome a half hourly service as the majority of Atherton line stations get.

I would not want it turned into a toiletless tram taking ages going around the houses.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the guided busway to Leigh, I'd rather it were re-opened as a railway. As it is, it doesn't suit my needs whereas the good, swift railway service from Atherton does.

I remember the Leigh Guided Busway being the realisation of the transport supremos in Greater Manchester. What would the costs likely to be for the removal of the existing concrete busway base and the instatement of rail tracks from Leigh to Ellenbrook and where would the Leigh terminus be based? Then there is the cost implications of reinstating the now defunct railway line section from Ellenbrook to a chosen line connection in the Manchester area.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember the Leigh Guided Busway being the realisation of the transport supremos in Greater Manchester. What would the costs likely to be for the removal of the existing concrete busway base and the instatement of rail tracks from Leigh to Ellenbrook and where would the Leigh terminus be based? Then there is the cost implications of reinstating the now defunct railway line section from Ellenbrook to a chosen line connection in the Manchester area.

All fair points.

It is what it is, and it obviously suits some passengers. I'm glad it's there, rather than nothing at all.

During the pre-covid rail strikes, I did consider using it, however I noted that it took about an hour to get to Oxford Road or thereabouts as opposed to the half hour on the train to Vic.

 

[geordieblue]

I'm engaging all the time. If Metrolink were turned into a true metro service with separate infrastructure, that would of course be better than an add on to the tram network. It would still lose benefits such as through services beyond Wigan/Manchester and toilets on trains.

I use a suburban-ish service into Leeds daily. It also takes around half an hour. My train is hourly and I would very much welcome a half hourly service as the majority of Atherton line stations get.

I would not want it turned into a toiletless tram taking ages going around the houses.

I suppose what I struggle with is that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of Atherton conversion for locals because you yourself would not like conversion. As I have noted if it was converted to tram it would not be slower than currently, it wouldn't go 'round the houses' except possibly on-street in central Manchester, and you can just go to the toilet in the pub (I don't think toilets really seem to be an issue on the Underground or T&W Metro for example).
There are a limited number of pre existing transport corridors in the Manchester area and it makes sense to utilise them to their full potential - providing Atherton passengers with 5+tph into Manchester as opposed to a less regular service to points beyond is undoubtedly better for the vast majority of locals

 

[185]

The only Metrolink (tram-train) in that direction should be from Leigh to Ellenbrook with a branch joining from Atherton, then a new 1.3km line built through or under Roe Green Golf Club to Wardley, then along the current railway alignment into the city - ie nowhere near the A580 East Lancs Car Park. Certainly a great advantage over the current offering.

 

[tbtc]

The tram will most likely stop more often, take a more circuitous route, have to slow down through the city streets. I would say it’s nigh on inevitable that the tram will be slower.

Why would trams take a circuitous route?

Think about it… hmm… Is the reason because the existing line consists of badly located stations that are some distance from their centres? Just like at Oldham/ Rochdale?

But trams could penetrate those much better , taking people to/from where they want to be… (just like running into actual central Manchester)… why are you against that?

You keep mentioning the “inevitable” diversion of services without any consideration for the fact that this would be happening FOR A REASON (whereas Altrincham/ Bury were converted by sticking to the traditional track bed, because those towns had central stations already, so the trams follow the same route that trains did)

Time and time again you’ll complain about how trams will end up “going round the houses” but seemingly can’t make the connection that the only reason they’d be diverted around aforementioned houses is because the traditional route stuck to stations half a mile away that were a lot less attractive

Same with the “inevitability” that trams so stop more often than trains … it’d only happen if the traditional train stations were badly spaced… in which case isn’t it a good thing that the route evolves to serve places that have sprung up since the nineteenth century?

Not really. How do you know how many stops the tram would make, where it would deviate from the existing route and where it would do on-street running ?

All we can do is make an assumption that it will do a selection of these things because that's what trams tend to do

Some trams, not all takes trams (how much deviation is there on the way to Altrincham or Bury? But then how attractive was a train journey from central Oldham to central Rochdale twenty years ago?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

During the pre-covid rail strikes, I did consider using it, however I noted that it took about an hour to get to Oxford Road or thereabouts as opposed to the half hour on the train to Vic.

It takes far less time than that from Leigh to Salford Crescent railway station, in the area of Salford University. Salford Crescent has train services to a good range of destinations.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose what I struggle with is that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of Atherton conversion for locals because you yourself would not like conversion. As I have noted if it was converted to tram it would not be slower than currently, it wouldn't go 'round the houses' except possibly on-street in central Manchester, and you can just go to the toilet in the pub (I don't think toilets really seem to be an issue on the Underground or T&W Metro for example).
There are a limited number of pre existing transport corridors in the Manchester area and it makes sense to utilise them to their full potential - providing Atherton passengers with 5+tph into Manchester as opposed to a less regular service to points beyond is undoubtedly better for the vast majority of locals

I'm sorry, but how do you know that it "wouldn't go round the houses" ? The Oldham loop deviates from its route and goes around the houses ? And what route would it take into Manchester from the West ? I note that there are a couple of branches towards Eccles and Old Trafford. Would it join on one of these ? i've used them and the progress is stately.

Atherton already has an alternative transport corridor to Manchester. If local residents want trams that much, why not put them along the busway and leave the railway for people who want a fast journey.

You haven't addressed any of my points, nor have you acknowledged that the Blythe line of a similar length and character to the Atherton one is being returned as rail rather than metro.

It takes far less time than that from Leigh to Salford Crescent railway station, in the area of Salford University. Salford Crescent has train services to a good range of destinations.

Maybe it is, but it would introduce a change and a wait into my otherwise swift half hour train journey into central Manchester.

Why would trams take a circuitous route?

Think about it… hmm… Is the reason because the existing line consists of badly located stations that are some distance from their centres? Just like at Oldham/ Rochdale?

But trams could penetrate those much better , taking people to/from where they want to be… (just like running into actual central Manchester)… why are you against that?

You keep mentioning the “inevitable” diversion of services without any consideration for the fact that this would be happening FOR A REASON (whereas Altrincham/ Bury were converted by sticking to the traditional track bed, because those towns had central stations already, so the trams follow the same route that trains did)

Time and time again you’ll complain about how trams will end up “going round the houses” but seemingly can’t make the connection that the only reason they’d be diverted around aforementioned houses is because the traditional route stuck to stations half a mile away that were a lot less attractive

Same with the “inevitability” that trams so stop more often than trains … it’d only happen if the traditional train stations were badly spaced… in which case isn’t it a good thing that the route evolves to serve places that have sprung up since the nineteenth century?



Some trams, not all takes trams (how much deviation is there on the way to Altrincham or Bury? But then how attractive was a train journey from central Oldham to central Rochdale twenty years ago?)

I can't speak about other stops but Atherton (the one I use regularly) already has a longer service that goes from the centre of town, takes longer and has metro frequencies. The busway. Since this is already providing the sort of service that you say a tram would provide, why duplicate it with another one.

Why not let the bus way continue to provide such frequent, slower but more door-to-door services, and let the railway continue to carry passengers who want a fast trip into the centre ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the Oldham/Rochdale line, was it the Metrolink tram stop at South Chadderton that was recently trashed by the local scrotes and the ticket machine being damaged beyond repair? Could this type of behaviour occur on tram stops on the Atherton line with no staff?

With regards to the Atherton line, going back a good number of years, was that a line where the "Q" trains were used as a deterrent to the local ne'er-do-wells?

 

[yorkie]

x

On the Oldham/Rochdale line, was it the Metrolink tram stop at South Chadderton that was recently trashed by the local scrotes and the ticket machine being damaged beyond repair?

With respect, as you're the one bringing it up, the onus is on you to provide a citation.

Could this type of behaviour occur on tram stops on the Atherton line with no staff?

I don't see how antisocial behaviour can be ruled out, with or without a staff presence. If you are proposing staff at all stops on public transportation systems, that's going to get very expensive...

I'm sorry, but how do you know that it "wouldn't go round the houses" ? The Oldham loop deviates from its route and goes around the houses ?

True, but it only really does that around Westwood and, although there is a station there, I've always assumed it was more down to the geography of the route and limitations regarding alternatives which is why it deviates that way, rather than a desperate need to provide a station there.

As for whether the Atherton line would "go round the houses", do we know what route it would take between Salford Crescent and Manchester Victoria? There is the possibility (although probably unlikely!) that it could be more direct than the railway line.

As for the comparison between Metrolink and T&W Metro, to be fair to @yorksrob the former is notorious for being slow (except on the parts that were former heavy rail lines), but the latter is a genuinely rapid transport system (albeit arguably mismanaged and underperforming but that's for another thread!)

 

[geordieblue]

I'm sorry, but how do you know that it "wouldn't go round the houses" ? The Oldham loop deviates from its route and goes around the houses ? And what route would it take into Manchester from the West ? I note that there are a couple of branches towards Eccles and Old Trafford. Would it join on one of these ? i've used them and the progress is stately.

Atherton already has an alternative transport corridor to Manchester. If local residents want trams that much, why not put them along the busway and leave the railway for people who want a fast journey.

You haven't addressed any of my points, nor have you acknowledged that the Blythe line of a similar length and character to the Atherton one is being returned as rail rather than metro.

It doesn't go 'round the houses'. It enters the town centre. There is a difference.
The railway is not noticeably faster, as has been noted multiple times upthread.
Blyth (no e) is a different case, fewer stops and a far longer distance mean heavy rail is genuinely faster.
Which of your points have I ignored?
Not sure how to multiquote btw so sorry this isn't a very well organised reply.

 

[yorksrob]

It doesn't go 'round the houses'. It enters the town centre. There is a difference.
The railway is not noticeably faster, as has been noted multiple times upthread.
Blyth (no e) is a different case, fewer stops and a far longer distance mean heavy rail is genuinely faster.
Which of your points have I ignored?
Not sure how to multiquote btw so sorry this isn't a very well organised reply.

It does enter the town centre, but it makes for a longer journey as opposed to the previous route via the tunnels.

I do agree with you that there is a definite demand for frequent, door-to-door type journeys and that should be served (as the busway tends to do at the moment).

However, there is also a demand for fast, direct rail travel to the centre (and Wigan) and beyond. This should be served in its own right without people forever trying to turn it into something else.

 

[MattRat]

I would say that, but look at Mumps !

Anyhow. There's already a 25min - half hour journey to Victoria. I don't want that (and probably longer in a tram) without a bog.

Merseyrail manages fine for longer, you don't see human waste all over the trains floors, do you?

 

[yorksrob]

Merseyrail manages fine for longer, you don't see human waste all over the trains floors, do you?

Maybe it carries lots of very uncomfortable passengers at times.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

While some sort of "tramification" of the Atherton line would likely be of some benefit to the area it serves there are some significant obstacles to such a project. These could doubtless be overcome provided there is the political will to provide sufficient funding: I doubt such willingness exists to expend large sums of money on a rail route which, in basic terms, functions perfectly well and has long been operated with regular services extending onto the wider rail network.

Ideally it would be done by providing pure Metrolink operation on separate tracks alongside the existing ones. Most of the route was 4-tracked in the past and while relocation of some infrastructure would be necessary the only difficult obstacle is the M60 bridge: one or other network would have to be single-track at this point. A pure Metrolink conversion would also mean that there would be no question of trying to fit in trams with trains at any point, just as well since it has proved near impossible to reliably path even a 4tph rail service on the Atherton line. It also seems to me that trying to fit in any sort of tram line through Hindley and into Wigan town centre would only be possible at huge expense. As such any such scheme might well only follow the current route as far out as Hag Fold before being routed on street to Leigh. Heavy rail services could thus be non-stop between Salford Crescent and Atherton where interchange between the two could take place. This would also mean no need for heavy rail platforms at the current intermediate stations, which in turn opens up the possibility of routing trams away from the rail route to better serve Swinton/Walkden and possibly also serve the Little Hulton area before rejoining the main route east of Atherton.

However as mentioned upthread the latest TfGM master plan mentions "tramification" of the Atherton line only as a vague possibility with no confirmed plans for anything at this point. The only proposals for the Salford Crescent area are for a street-running extension of Metrolink from Salford Quays to the Salford Crescent area, possibly serving the nearby university campus, and allowing for access to Media City without having to interchange in Manchester city centre.

I also note for all the by now long standing talk of tram-trains there is still no current or planned operation of genuine tram-trains in this country ie vehicles capable of running off either mainline or street compatible electrification. It's looking increasingly unlikely that we will ever see such vehicles here. Note the South Yorkshire class 399 tram-trains do not use their 25kV capability, as the extension to Rotherham was electrified at 750V, and there is no suggestion that they will ever do so.

 

[WAO]

Merseyrail manages fine for longer, you don't see human waste all over the trains floors.

No. Just Scousers.

They won't even let us put our feet on the seats now.

Seriously, the Atherton line is us L&Yers' distant hope of a fast route into Manchester (a necessary evil).

Happy to have some Manc trams in between our Aspinall flyers.

WAO

 

[yorksrob]

Best thing to my mind would be to electrify the Atherton and Calder valley lines to provide a modern, cross Manchester service.

A third train per hour could be provided by a through train to Southport.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

A third train per hour could be provided by a through train to Southport.

Like once the Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrification is complete one from Bolton runs as EMU and one of the 2tph to Southport start running via Atherton?

 

[yorksrob]

Like once the Lostock Jn - Wigan Station Jn electrification is complete one from Bolton runs as EMU and one of the 2tph to Southport start running via Atherton?

Yes, I'd definitely like one of the Southport trains going via Atherton.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes, I'd definitely like one of the Southport trains going via Atherton.

Which one would you want more, Stalybridge or Oxford Rd?
(obviously they could change)

I'd want Oxford Rd since we already have 2 services into Victoria, Deansgate is good tram connection (if they stop there) and Oxford Rd can lead to 1 less change for services e.g. Hope Valley fasts (TPE and EMR's)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't see how antisocial behaviour can be ruled out, with or without a staff presence. If you are proposing staff at all stops on public transportation systems, that's going to get very expensive...

The costs incurred in replacing totally vandalised ticket issuing machines as just one example does not come cheap. Not proposing staff at all stops of course, but something that could be considered for known "black spots".

 

[yorksrob]

Which one would you want more, Stalybridge or Oxford Rd?
(obviously they could change)

I'd want Oxford Rd since we already have 2 services into Victoria, Deansgate is good tram connection (if they stop there) and Oxford Rd can lead to 1 less change for services e.g. Hope Valley fasts (TPE and EMR's)

I think there are arguments for both. In the past, a direct train to Oxford Road would have been a boon for me.

I'm not going to be explicit in one way, except to say that the route has value as part of the wider railway network.

 

[MattRat]

Maybe it carries lots of very uncomfortable passengers at times.

For over 4 decades without anything being done?

 

[yorkie]

The costs incurred in replacing totally vandalised ticket issuing machines as just one example does not come cheap

The idea of buying tickets at ticket machines is outdated; these days contactless PAYG and/or e-tickets have replaced traditional paper tickets.

. Not proposing staff at all stops of course, but something that could be considered for known "black spots".

What is your proposal exactly? 24 hour security guards at selected stations?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is your proposal exactly? 24 hour security guards at selected stations?

I do believe that the local transport deity known as Mayor Burnham will have all such matters covered by his transport omnipotentence and has no need for proposals from mere individuals. But thank you for crediting me with proposal makings of the type that you so suggest, nonetheless.

Manchester Metrolink has ticket machines at all their stops, so I am reliably informed by someone employed by them.

With respect, as you're the one bringing it up, the onus is on you to provide a citation.

I have since spoken to a contributor on the Manchester SkyScraper City Metrolink thread, who confirms it is the tram stop at South Chadderton that was the one that had been subjected to the extreme vandalism. He thinks that the local Oldham paper had a reporter at the tram stop in question not long after the vandalism had occurred.

 

[HSTEd]

Given that the Atherton Line has no linespeeds above 60mph before it reaches Wigan Wallgate, I am extremely skeptical that the tram journey would be any slower than the existing train journey.

5tph to Wigan is probably far more useful than an hourly DMU.

Even beyond Wigan on the line to Southport the speed limit peaks at 70mph, which saves 9 seconds per mile versus 60mph, even assuming instantaneous electrification.

You'd be looking at 2 minutes of saving at most.