Could the contactless payment increase make widespread PAYG feasible?

[dcsprior]

Today's budget included an announcement that the contactless payment limit was increasing from £45 to £100. As a lot of rail journeys cost under £100 each way, would it be feasible for the industry to start working towards a nationwide touch-in/touch-out pay-as-you-go scheme?

 

[Hadders]

Contactless works well in metro areas, on a turn up and go basis. London is a good example of this.

Contactless isn't appropriate for long distance journeys. I don't think we're going to be using a contactless bank card to tap in at Euston and tap out at Manchester Piccadilly. Far too many variables....

 

[AlterEgo]

Too many variables. How do you know who was sat in first and standard class? How do you know what route a person took? How will discounts like railcards be applied?

 

[SS4]

Contactless works on largely stopping services in well-defined zonal areas. It works well in London but even that has its complexities (pink readers anyone?). Scaling that up will be very difficult given our plethora of routes, TOCs and pricing models. From London to Birmingham you have 3 TOCs on 2 routes and whilst I'm sure the system could tell how long a journey took it won't tell you a route. One of my larger concerns is how to handle break of journey. Suppose I buy a ticket from New St to Lichfield TV I'm allowed to disembark anywhere en route as long as I complete the journey on time - how will you go that with a touch in/out system? On top of that it doesn't help that the pricing model pushes people to book in advance rather than turn up and go with significantly cheaper fares.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea and it certainly can be done but I just don't see the will being there from either passengers or politicians. The Dutch have a zonal system for the country after all

 

[Hadders]

Is contactless on long distance services consistent with compulsory seat reservations which, looking at another thread, many would like to see

To be serious, one of the biggest issues is what happens if you don't touch in or out. In London if you forget to touch in or out you get charged a maximum fare. I can't remember exactly how much it is but it's something like £15. Enough to protect revenue but not so high to be too punitive. Remember that even in London many stations don't have ticket barriers and the system relies on tapping in and out on standalone validators.

Let's scale up contactless across the country. How much should the maximum fare be. Let's say I touch in at Penzance, travel to Wick and forget to touch out you might expect the maximum fare to be something like £250, maybe more. Now say I tap in at Penzance and travel one stop to St Erth but forget to tap out. Charging a maximum fare of £250 would be totally disproportionate. Remember you can't have different levels of maximum fares for forgetting to tap out, one size has to fit all.

 

[MikeWh]

Today's budget included an announcement that the contactless payment limit was increasing from £45 to £100. As a lot of rail journeys cost under £100 each way, would it be feasible for the industry to start working towards a nationwide touch-in/touch-out pay-as-you-go scheme?

The retail limit for contactless payments has no effect on PAYG transit systems. A peak single from Reading to Paddington is £25 so the daily charge would exceed the current limit of £45 after the return.

I can't remember exactly how much it is but it's something like £15.

Within zones 1-9 it is £8.60/£5.80 depending on the time of the touch that is made. If the touch is beyond zone 9 it varies depending on location. The GatEx gates at Victoria and the HEx gates at Paddington charge the full single fare if you fail to touch at the other end.

 

[infobleep]

Too many variables. How do you know who was sat in first and standard class? How do you know what route a person took? How will discounts like railcards be applied?

Very true. Pre covid-19 it was probably impossible to work it out when people travel between East Croydon and London Victoria and here there is contactless in operation. In fact so much so that there wasn't a contactless price for first class.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Contactless surely only works where there is one class of accommodation on a train?

 

[MikeWh]

Contactless surely only works where there is one class of accommodation on a train?

In London the terms state that it is standard class only and if found in first class you will be treated as having no valid ticket.

 

[Watershed]

How do you know what route a person took?

The same way as Oyster knows - i.e. one default route, and other alternative routes based on barriers passed through and pink readers tapped. Journey time could also be taken into consideration, e.g. some tap in/out combinations will mean there's only one train or route you could have taken.

In a sense this issue is no different to the enforcement of route or TOC restricted tickets. If the TOCs want to ensure people are paying the right fare and the only way of enforcing it is to do on-board checks (validations in this case), then that will be what is necessary!

How will discounts like railcards be applied?

Apply it through an online account or ticket machine. This really isn't the biggest blocker.

Contactless works on largely stopping services in well-defined zonal areas. It works well in London but even that has its complexities (pink readers anyone?). Scaling that up will be very difficult given our plethora of routes, TOCs and pricing models. From London to Birmingham you have 3 TOCs on 2 routes and whilst I'm sure the system could tell how long a journey took it won't tell you a route. One of my larger concerns is how to handle break of journey. Suppose I buy a ticket from New St to Lichfield TV I'm allowed to disembark anywhere en route as long as I complete the journey on time - how will you go that with a touch in/out system? On top of that it doesn't help that the pricing model pushes people to book in advance rather than turn up and go with significantly cheaper fares.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea and it certainly can be done but I just don't see the will being there from either passengers or politicians. The Dutch have a zonal system for the country after all

See above - there will obviously be winners and losers with any PAYG system. Just as with Oyster now, if doing a BoJ you may be better off buying a paper ticket.

This is almost completely the opposite of an Advance-only system, because you'd simply load Advances to a smartcard or show them on an e-ticket, and this would be for flexible travel.

I agree that this would of course work easiest in zoned metropolitan areas, but many other European countries have found ways of moving to zonally priced travel. The difference here is that no-one wants to grasp the nettle of change.

To be serious, one of the biggest issues is what happens if you don't touch in or out. In London if you forget to touch in or out you get charged a maximum fare. I can't remember exactly how much it is but it's something like £15. Enough to protect revenue but not so high to be too punitive. Remember that even in London many stations don't have ticket barriers and the system relies on tapping in and out on standalone validators.

Let's scale up contactless across the country. How much should the maximum fare be. Let's say I touch in at Penzance, travel to Wick and forget to touch out you might expect the maximum fare to be something like £250, maybe more. Now say I tap in at Penzance and travel one stop to St Erth but forget to tap out. Charging a maximum fare of £250 would be totally disproportionate. Remember you can't have different levels of maximum fares for forgetting to tap out, one size has to fit all.

SWR Tap2Go has a maximum fare of £25. The most expensive single fare within their network is £82.10. Clearly it's a risk, but one they (and the DfT) were willing to take.

At the end of the day, unless all stations are fully barriered, on-train/station revenue inspection will still be required. Just as they are now.

I can't help feeling that people are trying to think of problems, when in fact there are just as many (if not more) problems with the current system of paper tickets.

People would say you're mad if you told them you were introducing a new system where people could pay whatever fare they wanted to get through the barriers, and it's effectively taken on trust unless you encounter an inspection...

SWR Tap2Go quite clearly demonstrates that non-metro PAYG is possible.

 

[AlterEgo]

The same way as Oyster knows - i.e. one default route, and other alternative routes based on barriers passed through and pink readers tapped. Journey time could also be taken into consideration, e.g. some tap in/out combinations will mean there's only one train or route you could have taken.

I'm travelling from London to Coventry. How will the system know if I take West Midlands or Avanti? On-train readers? Do I need to alight at Northampton to demonstrate that's the route I took? What kind of data can be stored on a debit card? On London Underground, I believe a contactless bank card does not return any detailed real-time data to inspectors, just that when you present one the inspector can simply see whether it's a card that *could have been used to touch in* that day (correct type, mark in the back office system, not blacklisted etc).

What if you don't get your ticket checked? That's pretty common. How do you demonstrate you went via Northampton?

Apply it through an online account or ticket machine. This really isn't the biggest blocker.

I think we need to know a bit more about how much (or little) data can be stored on your debit card.

Also, what happens if I don't touch out? Say I board at Euston for Milton Keynes, on Avanti. How much should I be charged if I fail to tap out for any reason?

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'm travelling from London to Coventry. How will the system know if I take West Midlands or Avanti? On-train readers? Do I need to alight at Northampton to demonstrate that's the route I took? What kind of data can be stored on a debit card? On London Underground, I believe a contactless bank card does not return any detailed real-time data to inspectors, just that when you present one the inspector can simply see whether it's a card that *could have been used to touch in* that day (correct type, mark in the back office system, not blacklisted etc).

What if you don't get your ticket checked? That's pretty common. How do you demonstrate you went via Northampton?

Perhaps there could be a separate, contactless only fare? If you tap in at Euston and out at Coventry it won't care which way you went or which operator you used. Perhaps we need to get away from expecting contactless to replicate paper tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps there could be a separate, contactless only fare? If you tap in at Euston and out at Coventry it won't care which way you went or which operator you used. Perhaps we need to get away from expecting contactless to replicate paper tickets.

Have you looked up how huge a discrepancy there is?

£170.40 SOR Any Permitted
£90.30 SOR WMR/LNR only
What would you set the contactless fare at?
These are pretty high fares. How do we advertise what the fare will be before travel? It’s okay in the London zone where fares aren’t over £100. People will expect foreknowledge of the fare if they’re authorising £170 off their card.

 

[Watershed]

I'm travelling from London to Coventry. How will the system know if I take West Midlands or Avanti?

In 99% of cases it would be obvious based on which platform's validator you touch at Euston. The journey time from tap in to out would then confirm it where there's any doubt. The latter being the way that SWR Tap2Go determines routes taken.

On-train readers?

That's one option, yes. Or on-board revenue inspections. Or platform-specific validators. There are loads of possibilities.

What kind of data can be stored on a debit card?

Nothing at all needs to be stored on the card. It can all be done in the backend. Just how often does someone change their Railcard? It's really not the biggest problem with the proposal. The level of single fares is a much bigger issue, if anything.

On London Underground, I believe a contactless bank card does not return any detailed real-time data to inspectors, just that when you present one the inspector can simply see whether it's a card that *could have been used to touch in* that day (correct type, mark in the back office system, not blacklisted etc).

And that would be one possible way of working, but it could be simply the backup option in case of internet connectivity problems. With instant backend reporting, instant checking would be possible in the vast majority of cases.

Also, what happens if I don't touch out? Say I board at Euston for Milton Keynes, on Avanti. How much should I be charged if I fail to tap out for any reason?

SWR Tap2Go charges a maximum fare of £25 with a maximum intra-network single of £82.10, a ratio of about 3.3.

Applying the same ratio to the highest intra-network single of £196.50 for Avanti (Euston-Glasgow SOS), the maximum fare would be £60. Not cheap, but about the same as a Penalty Fare on TfL.

Again, I really think people are focusing on relatively inconsequential details. The biggest issue is going to be what level the fares are going to be set at.

For example, where there are CDRs/SDRs whose equivalent SVR/SOR costs nearly twice as much - is a single Off-Peak fare going to be half the CDR/SDR or half the SVR/SOR? And where CDRs and SVRs have varying restrictions, which restriction is going to apply to a single?

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'd do single leg pricing, standard class only. The fare would be more than that to Rugby, less than than that to Birmingham International. The actual amount would be advertised on the internet.
As for how much, I've no idea. But I'm sure after a prolonged discussion between the railway industry, DfT and Treasury, a fare would emerge.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'd do single leg pricing, standard class only. The fare would be more than that to Rugby, less than than that to Birmingham International. The actual amount would be advertised on the internet.
As for how much, I've no idea. But I'm sure after a prolonged discussion between the railway industry, DfT and Treasury, a fare would emerge.

I don't think you grasp the difficulty in setting the fare; you're just saying "ah, just have ONE fare for contactless and to hell with it". Essentially, you are removing the benefit of choosing a slower, lower quality operator in return for a cheaper fare, and encouraging everyone onto Avanti, because they have the fastest, most frequent, and most highly specified trains between London and Coventry. Are you familiar with the route?

 

[Ianno87]

I don't think you grasp the difficulty in setting the fare; you're just saying "ah, just have ONE fare for contactless and to hell with it". Essentially, you are removing the benefit of choosing a slower, lower quality operator in return for a cheaper fare, and encouraging everyone onto Avanti, because they have the fastest, most frequent, and most highly specified trains between London and Coventry. Are you familiar with the route?

You're presuming TOC-specific fares still have a place in the post-Covid world.

Also, such an issue could be solved (albeit inprefectly) by the different barrier lines at Euston, like what happens at Gatwick and Paddington.

Alternatively, TOC specific fares could simply be covered by Advances only.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're presuming TOC-specific fares still have a place in the post-Covid world.

I don't see why they wouldn't - unless you're telling me we won't have more than one TOC running London to Coventry.

Also, such an issue could be solved (albeit inprefectly) by the different barrier lines at Euston, like what happens at Gatwick and Paddington.

So we'd no longer be boarding LNR trains from unbarriered platforms then, as happens dozens of times a day at the moment? You'd need to do quite a severe rebuild of the concourse and ramps to facilitate the segregation you're after.

Alternatively, TOC specific fares could simply be covered by Advances only.

Ah, a loss of consumer choice to implement contactless payments. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 

[Ianno87]

I don't see why they wouldn't - unless you're telling me we won't have more than one TOC running London to Coventry.

It depends; to some extent TOC-only fares are basically abstraction of revenue from one TOC to another. When it's now all ultimately the same DfT bottom line, that now makes less sense. There's only a few examples where it could be argued such fares actually generate more demand revenue / overall in a net industry sense.

So we'd no longer be boarding LNR trains from unbarriered platforms then, as happens dozens of times a day at the moment? You'd need to do quite a severe rebuild of the concourse and ramps to facilitate the segregation you're after.

Hence why I said 'imperfect'.

Ah, a loss of consumer choice to implement contactless payments. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Depends what consumers (as opposed to the opinions expressed on this forum, which is only a sub-set overall railway demand) actually want. "Advance" could just mean buying a train-specific fare from the TVM a few minutes before departure.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I accept I don't know all there is to know about fares, contactless or otherwise.
But, I would suggest that if a contactless fare was introduced between Euston and Coventry on the lines I suggested, you could decide to take advantage of it or not. The SOR tickets outlined above would still be available in the same way that someone travelling from Bushy to Bromley can use contactless or buy a ticket from a ticket office, TVM or online.

 

[matt_world2004]

Heathrow express allows contactless first class travel. This is done by the host selling an upgrade on board (can you buy an upgrade from the ticket machine?) maybe this is how first class could be done with a contactless travel system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heathrow express allows contactless first class travel. This is done by the host selling an upgrade on board (can you buy an upgrade from the ticket machine?) maybe this is how first class could be done with a contactless travel system.

There are options. The Dutch OV-Chipkaart system allows you to change the default on the card (I forget how), or you could have it so you have an online account which if you set it up you can switch to 1st, or just have readers in 1st in the door vestibule that you tap on boarding to upgrade.

Or you get rid of 1st on local trains entirely. I don't think contactless is really viable for long distance.

I don't see why they wouldn't - unless you're telling me we won't have more than one TOC running London to Coventry.

We will have more than one TOC, but it wouldn't surprise me to see the TOC specific fare go away - the Government have openly stated that that is an aim.

 

[Aictos]

With contactless being more widespread, instead of focusing on long distance services which I think is unworkable why don't the UK do something really radical and get rid of all the different ITSO systems such as Oyster, Tap2Go, the Key, Stagecoach Smart, OneCard etc and just focus on improving contactless instead and use the one centralised system that is accepted by everyone instead of the current mix bag of various smartcards and restrictions.

Surely it would be easier to introduce nationwide contactless for both train and buses as a example it would remove the issue of a passenger tapping their phone against the contactless reader on the gatelines at St Pancras Int and travel to Luton where the gatelines would reject them as Luton Airport Parkway is the last station that you can use contactless on the MML from London.

Now I'm not suggesting we roll out contactless for journey's such as London to Birmingham but rather push it to replace existing smart ticketing zones.

And if people still wanted a season ticket then they could easily still click a link in their email to add it to Google Pay or Apple Pay, the only issue I can forseen is railcards but equally there should be a way of adding it to Apple Pay or Google Pay so when you tap in or out using contactless then the system knows this device has a registered Network railcard and discounts the cost of Passenger A travelling from say St Albans to Farringdon.

It would be cheaper and more effective as it would only be in essence one system rather then a mix of various smart ticketing systems and would mean the current restrictions that Oyster has would be a thing of the past.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely it would be easier to introduce nationwide contactless for both train and buses as a example it would remove the issue of a passenger tapping their phone against the contactless reader on the gatelines at St Pancras Int and travel to Luton where the gatelines would reject them as Luton Airport Parkway is the last station that you can use contactless on the MML from London.

In a fully gated system, Contactless nationwide would be possible, but we are a very long way away from a fully gated system with barriers staffed 24-7 (or at least 10 minutes either side of the first and last train).

The current debate about part-time season tickets does lend itself to a capping approach, rather than buying the season ticket upfront.

 

[Ianno87]

In a fully gated system, Contactless nationwide would be possible, but we are a very long way away from a fully gated system with barriers staffed 24-7 (or at least 10 minutes either side of the first and last train).

The current debate about part-time season tickets does lend itself to a capping approach, rather than buying the season ticket upfront.

Why do you need to be fully gated? The London Oyster/contactless area certainly isn’t.

 

[JonathanH]

Why do you need to be fully gated? The London Oyster/contactless area certainly isn’t.

Why don't you need to be fully gated? It seems to be the possible alternative to an eyewatering fare for not touching out and avoids leakage of passengers who don't touch out.

London Underground is almost fully gated. I accept that there are plenty of National Rail stations in the London Oyster / contactless area which aren't.

Fully gated is of course a very desirable future position for the railway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why don't you need to be fully gated? It seems to be the possible alternative to an eyewatering fare for not touching out and avoids leakage of passengers who don't touch out.

A gated system isn't an alternative to a failure-to-touch-out penalty because you can jump or force gates, or tailgate through them, or they're left open because the staff called in sick, or whatever.

Fully gated is of course a very desirable future position for the railway.

It's not a possible future provision. Think about it - gates at Roman Bridge? Altnabreac? Dunrobin Castle?

 

[JonathanH]

It's not a possible future provision. Think about it - gates at Roman Bridge? Altnabreac? Dunrobin Castle?

Yes, obviously there are some rural stations where it is not possible, but there are still more stations to be done in urban areas. Presumably somewhere there is a cost-benefit analysis for every urban station to consider a gating proposal plus of course sorting out locations like York and Sheffield where gating proposals have stumbled.

A gated system isn't an alternative to a failure-to-touch-out penalty because you can jump or force gates, or tailgate through them, or they're left open because the staff called in sick, or whatever.

No, you are right but it is another deterrent.

 

[Ianno87]

Why don't you need to be fully gated? It seems to be the possible alternative to an eyewatering fare for not touching out

If you're putting in Contactless pads (or whatever), put them visibly in the station entrance / exit areas to mitigate this (a bit like how French Composting machines are placed); not just one pad in the corner somewhere. Or install them as part of new gating schemes.

and avoids leakage of passengers who don't touch out.

No different to passengers who just don't bother buying tickets today and walk straight in/out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, obviously there are some rural stations where it is not possible, but there are still more stations to be done in urban areas. Presumably somewhere there is a cost-benefit analysis for every urban station to consider a gating proposal plus of course sorting out locations like York and Sheffield where gating proposals have stumbled.

Yes, probably, but unless you rebuild stations so "Paytrain" routes were outside of the gateline (which is possible at some stations, e.g. at Southport the Manchester service used to be outside the gateline, accessed from a separate entrance) you still have holes in the system.

No, you are right but it is another deterrent.

Yes, true, but it doesn't obviate the need to be charged maximum fare if you don't touch out, or at least to have some sort of alternative penalty.

That wouldn't necessarily have to be the maximum fare from that station (which could be hundreds), but could be say £50 (which is probably what a PF should be these days, £20 isn't really a penalty) but if you get three of those in a rolling 12 month period your card is blocked permanently, and you have the faff of having to obtain a new one from your bank if you want to use PAYG again.

That said, that could be an issue with Apple/Android Pay which use virtual card numbers that I think change frequently.

No different to passengers who just don't bother buying tickets today and walk straight in/out.

It's very different, because someone who has touched in cannot be penalised for having no ticket while in the system, whereas someone who is playing the "pay if challenged" game can be challenged at any point during the journey, not just as they walk out of Altnabreac without tapping out. It's then a bit like the way putting an old style scratch off Saveaway in your wallet was insurance against being charged a PF on Merseyrail - see the inspectors board, scratch it off then. (No, I didn't do that, but I did hear of it!)