Could the line to Keswick ever reopen?

[deltic08]

It was the car that transformed the Lake District into a viable tourist destination and mass car ownership is largely responsible for the region's income and wealth. It's also responsible for crowding, but not just because of visitors - virtually every residence now has at least one vehicle, most have multiple and these have to be parked on streets not designed to take them.

Public transport will never be a transport solution for the Lakes, even supposing opportunities for meaningful improvements existed. If the region were to make car based tourism difficult, it would be a turkey voting for Christmas.

Rather a sweeping statement. As someone who lived in the Lake District from 1948-1966, it was a viable tourist destination then. Tourists used local buses and a novel mode of transport called legs. On summer Saturdays there were through trains from Manchester, Newcastle and London to Keswick as well as charters trains. I remember one Easter there were five charters from London and one from Birmingham in addition to timetable services just for the Keswick Convention. Workington-Keswick-Penrith line was at full capacity that day with light engine and empty stock moves. Jubilee, Royal Scot and latterly Class 40 locos were regular visitors to Keswick on these trains.

Every Sunday between Easter and August Bank Holiday, a special train was run from Whitehaven and Workington to Keswick for 13 pence return in new money. Fares from this train alone paid for the operating costs of the Workington-Keswick line for the whole year.

Had it not been for William Wordsworth, the Windermere line would have been extended to meet the Keswick-Penrith line at Threlkeld providing rail access to Ambleside, Grasmere and Helvellyn.

Wndermere station had daily through trains to Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and London up to ten coaches in length again hauled my Jubilees, Britannias, Class 40 and 50 diesels. Lakeside was served by through trains from Yorkshire on Summer Saturdays from memory because it was not a station I visited at that end of the Lakes.

Had Beeching taken his survey on a Summer Saturday rather than February weekday, then the Lakes would have retained all of its railheads.

 

[JohnB57]

Rather a sweeping statement. As someone who lived in the Lake District from 1948-1966, it was a viable tourist destination then. Tourists used local buses and a novel mode of transport called legs. On summer Saturdays there were through trains from Manchester, Newcastle and London to Keswick as well as charters trains. I remember one Easter there were five charters from London and one from Birmingham in addition to timetable services just for the Keswick Convention. Jubilee, Royal Scot and latterly Class 40 locos were regular visitors to Keswick on these trains.

Every Sunday between Easter and August Bank Holiday, a special train was run from Whitehaven and Workington to Keswick for 13 pence return in new money. Fares from this train alone paid for the operating costs of the Workington-Keswick line for the whole year.

Had it not been for William Wordsworth, the Windermere line would have been extended to meet the Keswick-Penrith line at Threlkeld providing rail access to Ambleside, Grasmere and Helvellyn.

Wndermere station had daily through trains to Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham and London up to ten coaches in length again hauled my Jubilees, Britannias, Class 40 and 50 diesels. Lakeside was served by through trains from Yorkshire on Summer Saturdays from memory because it was not a station I visited at that end of the Lakes.

Had Beeching taken his survey on a Summer Saturday rather than February weekday, then the Lakes would have retained all of its railheads.

I don't disagree with any of this. But this, on a forum where people get apoplectic when the broadband on their East Coast service is too slow to stream to their satisfaction? 1966 is almost half a century in the past. We still had affordable train journeys - the ones that took hours with a puffing billy at the front. But we're talking about an era when car ownership was, even in 1966, pretty low.

However it worked in the past, there is no way in 2014 that I could justify taking wife and three kids for a week's holiday using public transport. The cost and the investment in time, let alone the massive inconvenience, would see to that.

 

[Iskra]

You may have seen my post, but you clearly haven't read it or understood it - your response makes no sense at all and I regret you're wrong - or at least a hundred years out of date.

The region cannot survive or prosper without the car, any more than Cornwall, Blackpool or the Scottish Highlands can. This is 2014, not the Victorian era - there's no longer a line of charabancs waiting at Windermere to convey you on to Kendal and Catbells. But every car that arrives, whether on a day trip or for a longer period, brings opportunities for local trade - trade that would simply go somewhere car friendly instead if the only option was public transport.

I realise this is a rail forum with its own inherent biases, but you have to admit that even well integrated public transport can only do so much. In the Lake District, that would be far too little for the region to be viable as a tourist destination.

Okay, so which bit didn't I understand? I'll break it down and you can tell me exactly where my sub-atomic brain is failing me.

It was the car that transformed the Lake District into a viable tourist destination and mass car ownership is largely responsible for the region's income and wealth.

This is simply fiction and is the entire premise of your post. Mass Lake District tourism and wealth pre-dates mass car ownership.

It's also responsible for crowding, but not just because of visitors - virtually every residence now has at least one vehicle, most have multiple and these have to be parked on streets not designed to take them.

You're saying it would still be congested on the streets if there was no tourism? I'm not convinced, since when I lived there (up until February this year) most houses there seemed to come with ample parking. Additionally, it isn't congested when it rains in the winter.

Public transport will never be a transport solution for the Lakes, even supposing opportunities for meaningful improvements existed.

Do you have any evidence for this? It seems unduly pessimistic and sweeping. Public transport in the lakes is on the up, and there is still plenty of scope for improvement. Additionally the car may not be a sustainable mode of transport forever, thus publiic transport will have to take more of the burden.

If the region were to make car based tourism difficult, it would be a turkey voting for Christmas.

I agree it wouldn't be a great idea now, but there are still plenty of other options of improvement that would be successful. Why would they bother electrifying the Windermere line if there wasn't a business case for it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't disagree with any of this. But this, on a forum where people get apoplectic when the broadband on their East Coast service is too slow to stream to their satisfaction? 1966 is almost half a century in the past. We still had affordable train journeys - the ones that took hours with a puffing billy at the front. But we're talking about an era when car ownership was, even in 1966, pretty low.

However it worked in the past, there is no way in 2014 that I could justify taking wife and three kids for a week's holiday using public transport. The cost and the investment in time, let alone the massive inconvenience, would see to that.

You do realise the car isn't an option for everyone? And they are also quite expensive to own and run.

There were plenty of families returning from Blackpool on the Blackpool North-York service that I joined at Preston on Thursday. Not my cup of tea, but they were showing it could be done.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't disagree with any of this. But this, on a forum where people get apoplectic when the broadband on their East Coast service is too slow to stream to their satisfaction? 1966 is almost half a century in the past. We still had affordable train journeys - the ones that took hours with a puffing billy at the front. But we're talking about an era when car ownership was, even in 1966, pretty low.

However it worked in the past, there is no way in 2014 that I could justify taking wife and three kids for a week's holiday using public transport. The cost and the investment in time, let alone the massive inconvenience, would see to that.

Nevertheless, there are still plenty of people who make leisure journeys by rail. Rail could be a vital part of the transport mix for Keswick as it is elsewhere.

 

[Bishopstone]

Ignoring the (vast) cost of reinstating the infrastructure, there is the issue of the ongoing subsidy required to operate the service. Looked at on a year-round basis, would Keswick be any healthier, financially, than the many other loss-making branches and rural routes operated by Northern, who have been told to cut costs?

 

[HSTEd]

HS2 will put Penrith around 2hr15 from London.

That would take a Keswick branch into the borderline for London daytrippers or weekenders.
That might improve the case significantly.

 

[The Planner]

Steady, some people will burst over that one, the work of the devil HS2 actually giving a greater chance to re-open another one.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

HS2 will put Penrith around 2hr15 from London. That would take a Keswick branch into the borderline for London daytrippers or weekenders. That might improve the case significantly.

How much do you envisage the cost in HS2 time to be for such day-trip journeys from London to be ? I do appreciate there will be much time saving that will make such day trips possible.

 

[HSTEd]

How much do you envisage the cost in HS2 time to be for such day-trip journeys from London to be ? I do appreciate there will be much time saving that will make such day trips possible.

Such journeys would be reverse-peak and thus probably quite cheap, around the £30 return mark or similar based on the calculations that I have done before.....

But to really be effective you would need HS2 to Scotland via the Western route.
Since we are going to need a new alignment anyway might be better to ensure it is cleared to GC....
And it really would be a literal Lakeland Shinkansen

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Since we are going to need a new alignment anyway might be better to ensure it is cleared to GC....

How much in the way of vociferous opposition from a number of quarters do you imagine would be engendered by the plans for such a new alignment and its associated civil engineering works, as quite a while has now elapsed since the M6 was driven northwards through that region.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes why couldn't it be metre gauge on the Swiss model?

I've been told before that there wouldn't be much difference in costs - but if that is the case why do metre gauge lines exist?

Operated to tramway rules surely there would be much less need for segregation and it would be easier to get it round any built on sections?

You can’t have a non standard line! How will you offer interoperability or through services? You will kill off a lot of journey options

It was the car that transformed the Lake District into a viable tourist destination and mass car ownership is largely responsible for the region's income and wealth.

This is simply fiction and is the entire premise of your post. Mass Lake District tourism and wealth pre-dates mass car ownership.

I think wide spread car ownership, the creation of a more affluent upper working/middle class and the National Parks movement combined to make the Lake District beyond popular. With a car the Lake District is within 2 hours of the major conurbations of the North West, the North East and Yorkshire. When I lived in the north east if we went for a day out it was often the lake district. Ambleside, Windermere, Kendal, Grasmere, etc. ALWAYS by car. We were not untypical of other people I knew.

The car didn’t create the Lake District as a destination, but it DID open it up to even more people

Public transport will never be a transport solution for the Lakes, even supposing opportunities for meaningful improvements existed.

Do you have any evidence for this? It seems unduly pessimistic and sweeping. Public transport in the lakes is on the up, and there is still plenty of scope for improvement. Additionally the car may not be a sustainable mode of transport forever, thus publiic transport will have to take more of the burden.

Public transport in the Lakes has improved but it needs to improve much more. It should be an option open to more people though.

I agree it wouldn't be a great idea now, but there are still plenty of other options of improvement that would be successful. Why would they bother electrifying the Windermere line if there wasn't a business case for it?

A quick and easy additional to a wider scheme, operational flexibility and the desire to for TOCS to use as few different stock types as possible in running a service are the main drivers I would suggest. There is no business case to electricity this route as a stand alone option.

 

[Iskra]

You can’t have a non standard line! How will you offer interoperability or through services? You will kill off a lot of journey options




I think wide spread car ownership, the creation of a more affluent upper working/middle class and the National Parks movement combined to make the Lake District beyond popular. With a car the Lake District is within 2 hours of the major conurbations of the North West, the North East and Yorkshire. When I lived in the north east if we went for a day out it was often the lake district. Ambleside, Windermere, Kendal, Grasmere, etc. ALWAYS by car. We were not untypical of other people I knew.

The car didn’t create the Lake District as a destination, but it DID open it up to even more people



Public transport in the Lakes has improved but it needs to improve much more. It should be an option open to more people though.




A quick and easy additional to a wider scheme, operational flexibility and the desire to for TOCS to use as few different stock types as possible in running a service are the main drivers I would suggest. There is no business case to electricity this route as a stand alone option.

I think wide spread car ownership, the creation of a more affluent upper working/middle class and the National Parks movement combined to make the Lake District beyond popular. With a car the Lake District is within 2 hours of the major conurbations of the North West, the North East and Yorkshire. When I lived in the north east if we went for a day out it was often the lake district. Ambleside, Windermere, Kendal, Grasmere, etc. ALWAYS by car. We were not untypical of other people I knew.


I agree. Car is the only option from the North East really, without a massively circuitous & arduous pacer journey just to get into the Cumbria area, and even then you're still far away from the lakes. A shame, really. Train is still a decent option from Lancashire and West Yorkshire though- there is of course still room for improvement.

A quick and easy additional to a wider scheme, operational flexibility and the desire to for TOCS to use as few different stock types as possible in running a service are the main drivers I would suggest. There is no business case to electricity this route as a stand alone option.

Basically it was for political reasons, as it was a nice soundbite for a very small outlay and inconvenience.

I'm intrigued to know how it will be run though with the possibility of TPE leaving the line to Northern in the franchise specifications- a great shame and a backwards step, but TPE's stock is spread far too thinly and it's only going to get worse, so it's understandable.

 

[HSTEd]

How much in the way of vociferous opposition from a number of quarters do you imagine would be engendered by the plans for such a new alignment and its associated civil engineering works, as quite a while has now elapsed since the M6 was driven northwards through that region.

Well this becomes the discussion about whether you want a low speed twin track route or just an almost entirely tunnelled ~250km/h single track route that would have trains flighted over the section to Penrith.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

However it worked in the past, there is no way in 2014 that I could justify taking wife and three kids for a week's holiday using public transport. The cost and the investment in time, let alone the massive inconvenience, would see to that.

Not relevant to the Lake District perhaps, but aircraft are not public transport?
Do we all have to drive to Spain (and the USA)?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Maybe the Keswick line could be a bribe used to help get HS2 Phase 3 through Cumbria/the Lake District?

 

[HSTEd]

Keswick is a summer dominated destination, but the area around Raise and Ullswater generally might make a credible winter destination if people were to throw money and snow making equipment at it.