Could we see a "Head Out to Help Out" scheme?

[DB]

Ahh, but then they would leave themselves open to the abuse and vigilantism that we occasionally read about anecdotally, but that the overwhelming majority of us have never seen.

Well, if you are wearing masks you are far less likely to see it, surely? Unless you happen to be nearby at the time you won't be aware of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If rail becomes less competitive in the commuter market, it may be comparatively more competitive in the leisure market, in which case why not play to that strength.

Further bonus - the leisure market is easier to cater for because it's time-elastic in most cases, so you can move it around using Advance fares, and so you can just run a simple all-day Taktfahrplan with consistent train lengths all day (as, say, Avanti West Coast primarily does, being primarily not a commuter railway) - which is not only simpler but also a heck of a lot cheaper than a peaky London commuter operation.

I don't think the railway, when it does the sums, will be hand-wringing over the loss of commuters. Season ticket holders commuting daily pay about the same as off-peak daytrippers do per journey, and it's likely people will move away from the big cities and do more expensive occasional trips. Yet catering for commuters is expensive - you need more staff, and you need units that basically do one return trip (or at most two) per day and spend the rest of their time e.g. on Camden Bank.

Something like LNR's Euston routes operating a base service of 3 Birminghams, 1 Crewe, 1 MKC and 2 Trings per hour from about 0500 to about 0100 the next day, everything 8-car (no splitting and joining, just leave the units formed up unless needing to be split for maintenance as is done with the 319s), would save them an absolute packet. It might even be punctual, too.

And that service would be more than suitable for filling up (to a reasonable level) with daytrippers on a scheme like this, as it's basically what normally does handle large numbers of daytrippers on a Saturday, or at least did before they stuffed it up with the long through operations.

 

[Darandio]

Well, if you are wearing masks you are far less likely to see it, surely? Unless you happen to be nearby at the time you won't be aware of it.

I might wear a mask but i've seen a hell of a lot who aren't. Other than that little episode in the charity shop that was discussed a week or two back i've never seen a thing.

 

[talldave]

Who does it help though? As tax payers we're already paying for the trains and mostly not using them. All that happens is we pay some more and use them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who does it help though? As tax payers we're already paying for the trains and mostly not using them. All that happens is we pay some more and use them?

It would bring in some fares income vs. no fares income?

 

[yorksrob]

Further bonus - the leisure market is easier to cater for because it's time-elastic in most cases, so you can move it around using Advance fares, and so you can just run a simple all-day Taktfahrplan with consistent train lengths all day (as, say, Avanti West Coast primarily does, being primarily not a commuter railway) - which is not only simpler but also a heck of a lot cheaper than a peaky London commuter operation.

I don't think the railway, when it does the sums, will be hand-wringing over the loss of commuters. Season ticket holders commuting daily pay about the same as off-peak daytrippers do per journey, and it's likely people will move away from the big cities and do more expensive occasional trips. Yet catering for commuters is expensive - you need more staff, and you need units that basically do one return trip (or at most two) per day and spend the rest of their time e.g. on Camden Bank.

Something like LNR's Euston routes operating a base service of 3 Birminghams, 1 Crewe, 1 MKC and 2 Trings per hour from about 0500 to about 0100 the next day, everything 8-car (no splitting and joining, just leave the units formed up unless needing to be split for maintenance as is done with the 319s), would save them an absolute packet. It might even be punctual, too.

And that service would be more than suitable for filling up (to a reasonable level) with daytrippers on a scheme like this, as it's basically what normally does handle large numbers of daytrippers on a Saturday, or at least did before they stuffed it up with the long through operations.

I agree with you....

Except that the commuters do pay a big chunk of up front costs - which is useful in any context

 

[satisnek]

Fair enough - but please accept that some of us do have a problem with it and will not use trains while this rule remains in force.

Thank you sir, I use trains for leisure travel only and refuse to spend my money on such an activity (together with non-essential shopping) until these rules are lifted. That's my choice; others are OK with it which is fair enough.

 

[Class195]

What needs to happen is not all these silly schemes, but a concerted effort to get things back to as close to normal as possible.

Packing restaurants out on three days of the week is simply a silly rearranging of deckchairs rather than a serious attempt to offset some of the mess created over the last six months.

But if the trains are currently running around close to empty during the day, then surely it is better to offer 50% fares and fill them?

Bradford to Manchester for £6.80 instead of £13.60 sounds and looks amazing value.

It would bring in some fares income vs. no fares income?

Which has to be better than them carrying thin air.

As long as there are no silly restrictions and the governments understanding of off peak is leave after 9:30am and travel back after 6:00pm then they should be onto a winner.

 

[birchesgreen]

Who does it help though? As tax payers we're already paying for the trains and mostly not using them. All that happens is we pay some more and use them?

Well it would help me as it would save me a few quid, i'm paying for the help out to eat out scheme but will never use it. Finally get some benefit from all the tax i pay, yay!

 

[route101]

Thank you sir, I use trains for leisure travel only and refuse to spend my money on such an activity (together with non-essential shopping) until these rules are lifted. That's my choice; others are OK with it which is fair enough.

You may be waiting a while.

 

[bramling]

I might wear a mask but i've seen a hell of a lot who aren't. Other than that little episode in the charity shop that was discussed a week or two back i've never seen a thing.

My place had a mask altercation on a train earlier today, ended up with people spitting at each other.

Compliance in London is very obviously continuing to fall. My observation on London-area trains today was mask use was below 50%, notwithstanding of course all the ones wearing them incorrectly in various ways.

 

[Yew]

I agree with you....

Except that the commuters do pay a big chunk of up front costs - which is useful in any context

Equally, lots of the very expensive projects around London are primarily for commuters, so perhaps overall a reduction in the peak wouldn't necessarily be bad

 

[squizzler]

Feel free to use any of the existing threads to discuss this further, or create a new one, if appropriate.

I agree there are other threads to discuss specific proposals. Nonetheless I think there is the opportunity for any "head out to help out" scheme can kill two birds with one stone if done correctly by introducing something new to the traveller, and avoid any perception that rail industry is struggling for custom. Which sounds more fitting messaging for a confident industry people want to use: "Please use our trains, we are so desperate!", or: "Here is a new product which we think you will like, early birds note that prices will be reduced for a month!"

 

[yorkie]

I don't think any perception of desperation will come into it: a good deal will entice some passengers, and word of mouth is very powerful.

The only caveat I'd say is that rogue/dystopian train companies such as XC need to (be told to) get their house in order first. Once all train companies are behaving in a sensible manner, that's the time to do it.

LNER are already ahead of the game and had a successful sale, but a national scheme as proposed by Transport Focus is what we really need.

 

[scrapy]

The problem is that the trains that are the fullest at the moment are the off peak trains heading to seaside destinations and national parks. The suggested scheme would probably lead to those trains becoming busier, several Blackpool and Lake District trains reported well above social distancing capacity. Peak time trains particularly in the morning peak are very quiet (certainly in the North West) so I think a season ticket reduction may be a good idea and advance fares to take people to city destinations would be a however a blanket 50% off leisure travel would be a disaster as it would encourage more travel on the busiest routes and take revenue away from the industry.

 

[yorksrob]

The problem is that the trains that are the fullest at the moment are the off peak trains heading to seaside destinations and national parks. The suggested scheme would probably lead to those trains becoming busier, several Blackpool and Lake District trains reported well above social distancing capacity. Peak time trains particularly in the morning peak are very quiet (certainly in the North West) so I think a season ticket reduction may be a good idea and advance fares to take people to city destinations would be a however a blanket 50% off leisure travel would be a disaster as it would encourage more travel on the busiest routes and take revenue away from the industry.

In terms of the national parks, we still have the abysmal temporary timetables West of Skipton.

This needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency.

 

[Class195]

In terms of the national parks, we still have the abysmal temporary timetables West of Skipton.

This needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency.

I’ve had no joy from Northern on when the missing Lancaster and Morecambe services will resume.

 

[LAX54]

What needs to happen is not all these silly schemes, but a concerted effort to get things back to as close to normal as possible.

Packing restaurants out on three days of the week is simply a silly rearranging of deckchairs rather than a serious attempt to offset some of the mess created over the last six months.

Our 'local ' is open Mon to Weds, and is quite busy, then shuts on a Thursday and Sunday, as there is very little trade, seems Fri & Sat, he just about breaks even

Does it cause you "extreme distress" rather than mild discomfort? It sounds like it probably does, because if it only caused you mild discomfort you'd put up with it. So in that case don't wear one.

Seems dental practices are reporting an increase in mouth and tooth / gum problems, arising from 'dry mouth' and also the fact that as (as designed) the mask filters out nasties, or is supposed to, seems we are breathing them back in again!
So seems it's a combination of breathing in bacteria that we would normally expell, and 'Dry' mouth.

 

[yorkie]

Can we have any further discussion regarding masks in the dedicated thread please?

Thanks

 

[MDB1images]

I could think of a lot of day tour Coach companies that would benefit from a head out to help out type of scheme as not sure if they have had much Govt assistance, as for the Trains it would be hard to implement without reservations as some trains I work on Anglo Scots are quiet(but been getting busier each month)whilst others are back to normal loads, it's not too easy to predict(as opposed to pre Covid most people could predict which services would be busy).

 

[bramling]

But if the trains are currently running around close to empty during the day, then surely it is better to offer 50% fares and fill them?

I'm not sure it is entirely the case that trains are running around close to empty.

Here in London I'd say LU trains are now running around with what look quite close to normal off-peak loadings (bear in mind LU is now running pretty much a normal timetable), perhaps just slightly down which I'd say is probably accounted for by the lack of foreign tourists in London at the moment.

Suburban routes which are traditionally busy (like Liverpool Street to Shenfield or the North London Line) are also back to reasonable loadings, whilst traditionally quiet routes like Tattenham Corner I'd imagine are as quiet off-peak as they always were.

There's also some quite significant day-trip flows, sources tell me there's been 12-car Thameslink trains to Brighton running with standees at certain times.

What we don't have currently is the commuter peaks which multiply demand by a large factor. I don't think offering deals for off-peak use will make a jot of difference to this, and in many cases off-peak leisure use has likely already recovered - those people who feel comfortable using trains will already be doing so. In any case, with the schools going back there is likely going to be a reduction in day-trip use from next week, and a cheap deal isn't going to make much difference to this as kids being at school means a family day out simply isn't an option.

Then there's masks. I've sort of drifted to using the car for work journeys at the moment as I simply can't be bothered with the whole masks thing. Fortunately I do not travel at traditional peak times so there's unlikely to come a point where train returns to being the more expedient option. I'd love to be using trains to get to work, and would be doing so were it not for nonsense like the masks thing. One is rarely alone, so I'd bet I'm by no means the only one.

As I said elsewhere, silly schemes aren't IMO the answer to all this. We desperately need to have a "get the masses safely back to work" campaign. That would resolve many issues at a stroke.

In fact, wouldn't some kind of special offer on season tickets be more valuable in enticing people back? Perhaps also the industry will need to have a re-think on quality -- no doubt one factor in the post-1990s demand increase was privatisation bringing enhancements in the quality of rolling stock, unlike some of the 2010s stock which has been distinctly austere. Something like standard class on a 700 isn't really that enticing, it might cut it as a distress purchase, but not if the industry now needs to reach out.

 

[yorksrob]

In fact, wouldn't some kind of special offer on season tickets be more valuable in enticing people back?

That's more or less what Transport Focus have been saying all along, with regard to carnet tickets.

 

[LAX54]

I'm not sure it is entirely the case that trains are running around close to empty.

Here in London I'd say LU trains are now running around with what look quite close to normal off-peak loadings (bear in mind LU is now running pretty much a normal timetable), perhaps just slightly down which I'd say is probably accounted for by the lack of foreign tourists in London at the moment.

Suburban routes which are traditionally busy (like Liverpool Street to Shenfield or the North London Line) are also back to reasonable loadings, whilst traditionally quiet routes like Tattenham Corner I'd imagine are as quiet off-peak as they always were.

There's also some quite significant day-trip flows, sources tell me there's been 12-car Thameslink trains to Brighton running with standees at certain times.

What we don't have currently is the commuter peaks which multiply demand by a large factor. I don't think offering deals for off-peak use will make a jot of difference to this, and in many cases off-peak leisure use has likely already recovered - those people who feel comfortable using trains will already be doing so. In any case, with the schools going back there is likely going to be a reduction in day-trip use from next week, and a cheap deal isn't going to make much difference to this as kids being at school means a family day out simply isn't an option.

Then there's masks. I've sort of drifted to using the car for work journeys at the moment as I simply can't be bothered with the whole masks thing. Fortunately I do not travel at traditional peak times so there's unlikely to come a point where train returns to being the more expedient option. I'd love to be using trains to get to work, and would be doing so were it not for nonsense like the masks thing. One is rarely alone, so I'd bet I'm by no means the only one.

As I said elsewhere, silly schemes aren't IMO the answer to all this. We desperately need to have a "get the masses safely back to work" campaign. That would resolve many issues at a stroke.

In fact, wouldn't some kind of special offer on season tickets be more valuable in enticing people back? Perhaps also the industry will need to have a re-think on quality -- no doubt one factor in the post-1990s demand increase was privatisation bringing enhancements in the quality of rolling stock, unlike some of the 2010s stock which has been distinctly austere. Something like standard class on a 700 isn't really that enticing, it might cut it as a distress purchase, but not if the industry now needs to reach out.

Before the normal timetable recommenced on the GEML, they had to stregthen some services due to over crowding, it is only the IC trains that are not quite back to 100%

 

[Andyh82]

I'd worry it would do more harm than good

Pictures across the media of heaving train carriages won't encourage those who think its unsafe to start thinking it is safe

That's before you add in the political angle

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd worry it would do more harm than good

Pictures across the media of heaving train carriages won't encourage those who think its unsafe to start thinking it is safe

That's before you add in the political angle

It could of course be done using Advances - people are used to that kind of "£10 seat sale" type thing on that basis. You deal with crowding by only releasing a nominal one or two tickets on busy trains but more on quieter ones.

 

[Chester1]

The problem is that the trains that are the fullest at the moment are the off peak trains heading to seaside destinations and national parks. The suggested scheme would probably lead to those trains becoming busier, several Blackpool and Lake District trains reported well above social distancing capacity. Peak time trains particularly in the morning peak are very quiet (certainly in the North West) so I think a season ticket reduction may be a good idea and advance fares to take people to city destinations would be a however a blanket 50% off leisure travel would be a disaster as it would encourage more travel on the busiest routes and take revenue away from the industry.

I agree that across the board cuts to off peak tickets would overload specific services to popular destinations. An extremely large number of advanced tickets at an absurdly low price would be better. Maybe each leg being 1/8th of the price of an off peak return? Overcrowding should be avoidable if the system was well designed. It shouldn't be difficult to remove weekend tickets to Blackpool etc from a scheme. It could cover journeys were advanced tickets are not normally available (providing it is safe to do so). Some people won't like the lack of flexibility of advanced tickets but they would be welcome to buy a full price off peak return instead.

 

[AM9]

I agree with you....

Except that the commuters do pay a big chunk of up front costs - which is useful in any context

With inflation below 2% and interest rates at an all time low, the additional cost of up-front ticket purchase is far less than the savings.

If the railway transformed itself into a less reactionary commuter travel provider, great savings would start accruing from the very next major infrastructure or rolling stock order.

 

[WatcherZero]

Train firms are due to offer £1 fares under radical plans being considered by ministers to get Britons back onto the railways....

According to the Telegraph the government is mulling a January fares reduction program to lure people back onto the railways. Peak fares will rise with inflation as normal but there will be a blanket 20% cut in off peak fares and some fares will be temporarily reduced to £1.

Seems to me just about the wrong time to be trying to get trains packed again.

‘Head Out to Help Out’ plans for £1 rail fares and 20pc off-peak cuts

Ministers are mulling steep cuts to fares during less busy times – but peak fares are expected to go up in January.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[StephenHunter]

Too early to say really. We don't know where we'll be at in January.

 

[Roast Veg]

Sounds good to me, for most people the convenience of rail travel isn't directly avoided, it's just not known about. If some travellers can discover how easy it is to get around from where they live it could make quite a difference.