Could WMT operate a trolley service on their LNR routes from Birmingham to London/Liverpool?

[RobShipway]

Having recently travelled on the Crewe-Cardiff route, there was no mention of any trolley service in station/on train publcity, no trolley service was provided in either direction, and no apology for its absence was made via the on train tannoy system. While advertised in the timetable, and listed as a facility for this service on National Rail enquiries, I presume that on board refreshment services have now been withdrawn on this route.

I note that there is no longer any on board train catering on any ex-Southern Region services and cannot imagine any viable rationale for its (re-)introduction on the LNWR semi-fast services on the WCML.

There is certainly no trolley of buffet on the Gatwick Express services between Brighton and London Victoria, which was there back in the 1990's before the introduction of the class 377 units. This was in the days when slam door stock was operating on the route and the passageways where narrower in places than they are on the class 377 units. I almost got knocked over by a person going through the passage way while waiting to use the toilet, who had come through the passageway from the buffet. I looked up and was going to say who do you think you are Steve Ovett, only to find it was actually Steve Ovett that had gone past me as he was on his way up to London I believe to commentate on the 1992 Olympics.

Nowadays, I believe that the only places where you will find a buffet that is open is on the heritage lines and even then only on certain trains.

 

[Jimini]

I believe (and to make it clear I'm not in opposition to it) that the minimum wage caused issues with trolley economics, just like it did for the "jolly hostess" on NatEx.

Thanks for the earworm

 

[zwk500]

There is certainly no trolley of buffet on the Gatwick Express services between Brighton and London Victoria, which was there back in the 1990's before the introduction of the class 377 units. This was in the days when slam door stock was operating on the route and the passageways where narrower in places than they are on the class 377 units. I almost got knocked over by a person going through the passage way while waiting to use the toilet, who had come through the passageway from the buffet. I looked up and was going to say who do you think you are Steve Ovett, only to find it was actually Steve Ovett that had gone past me as he was on his way up to London I believe to commentate on the 1992 Olympics.

GTR had trolleys on Coastway services until not that long ago (2012 perhaps?).

Nowadays, I believe that the only places where you will find a buffet that is open is on the heritage lines and even then only on certain trains.

LNER certainly had them last year - it came in quite handy when our train got stuck outside York waiting for a platform in the aftermath of a one-under at Doncaster.

 

[childwallblues]

Liverpool-Birmingham initially had a trolley service too.

This was withdrawn when the 350/2 came along. They had problems getting through the 3+2 seating.

 

[RobShipway]

GTR had trolleys on Coastway services until not that long ago (2012 perhaps?).

LNER certainly had them last year - it came in quite handy when our train got stuck outside York waiting for a platform in the aftermath of a one-under at Doncaster.

There was not any trolley services on Gatwick Express services when I used them in 2019 or used the service since and certainly has not been any on the West or East Coastway services where they have been run by using class 313 units.

I have not used LNER services since 2019, but certainly the class 91 and mk4 sets I travelled in, did not have any trolley or buffet services on the trains.

 

[dk1]

I have not used LNER services since 2019, but certainly the class 91 and mk4 sets I travelled in, did not have any trolley or buffet services on the trains.

I’m confused by what you mean. There were always buffets on 91/DVT sets along with the HSTs operated by LNER & Virgin East Coast before them. A trolley service was usually provided too. Today a buffet counter is still provided on Azuma sets up & down the ECML along with an at-seat service via your phone that delivers food & drink to your seat. Greater Anglia also provides a buffet counter on its Norwich-Liverpool St Intercity services many with trolley service too.

 

[RobShipway]

I’m confused by what you mean. There were always buffets on 91/DVT sets along with the HSTs operated by LNER & Virgin East Coast before them. A trolley service was usually provided too. Today a buffet counter is still provided on Azuma sets up & down the ECML along with an at-seat service via your phone that delivers food & drink to your seat. Greater Anglia also provides a buffet counter on its Norwich-Liverpool St Intercity services many with trolley service too.

When I travelled on LNER in July 2019, there was no buffet and no trolley service available on the 91/dvt MK4 coaches train both to Doncaster and back from Doncaster a week later.

 

[dk1]

When I travelled on LNER in July 2019, there was no buffet and no trolley service available on the 91/dvt MK4 coaches train both to Doncaster and back from Doncaster a week later.

How come? That is rare as hens teeth. Did you use a service at a really early or really late hour or at a time of disruption when crew were displaced? It is extremely unusual.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I believe (and to make it clear I'm not in opposition to it) that the minimum wage caused issues with trolley economics, just like it did for the "jolly hostess" on NatEx.

Most definetley and that's the unintended consequence of it. Few could have forseen the elimination and automation of jobs that has happened accross the economy in part to avoid having to pay it. Self checkout in the supermarket and touchscreens in McDonalds being a prime example!

 

[RobShipway]

How come? That is rare as hens teeth. Did you use a service at a really early or really late hour or at a time of disruption when crew were displaced? It is extremely unusual.

No both services where after 9am. I never found out as to why there was no buffet service, other than perhaps on the days that I travelled that there was perhaps not enough staff for some reason.

 

[Energy]

Most definetley and that's the unintended consequence of it. Few could have forseen the elimination and automation of jobs that has happened accross the economy in part to avoid having to pay it. Self checkout in the supermarket and touchscreens in McDonalds being a prime example!

I think self checkouts would have happened anyway, minimum wage might have sped it up. In my experience supermarkets pay above minimum wage (particularly for 18-20) with the hospitality sector usually paying the bare minimum.

 

[whoosh]

Prices on board vs stations:

I understand that there is a VAT situation with food on trains, as its classed as 'dining out', so the same VAT as restaurants.
Shops on the station are 'eat out', so there is an unfair disadvantage placed upon on board refreshments. That's before the economics of staffing and stocking a moving vehicle.

 

[wilbers]

Prices on board vs stations:

I understand that there is a VAT situation with food on trains, as its classed as 'dining out', so the same VAT as restaurants.
Shops on the station are 'eat out', so there is an unfair disadvantage placed upon on board refreshments. That's before the economics of staffing and stocking a moving vehicle.

I'd never even considered that, but you are correct. Section 2.5

Catering, takeaway food (VAT Notice 709/1)

Find out when you need to charge VAT and at what rate if you supply food and drink for the purposes of catering or as a takeaway.

www.gov.uk

Well, that is something that is within the Governments power to change, should they choose to do so.

 

[whoosh]

I'd never even considered that, but you are correct...
....Well, that is something that is within the Governments power to change, should they choose to do so.

Yes it's a shame it hasn't been looked into.

I suspect those rules have also been the reason for, at certain times through the years, some premier first class products that included (along with car parking) a breakfast for free!

 

[Neptune]

Nowadays, I believe that the only places where you will find a buffet that is open is on the heritage lines and even then only on certain trains.

Buffet counters are provided on LNER, Avanti West Coast and Greater Anglia London - Norwich services.

When I travelled on LNER in July 2019, there was no buffet and no trolley service available on the 91/dvt MK4 coaches train both to Doncaster and back from Doncaster a week later.

Probably staff shortages and you were very unlucky. I travelled on LNER and predecessors a lot pre-covid and never encountered a closed buffet car once.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe (and to make it clear I'm not in opposition to it) that the minimum wage caused issues with trolley economics, just like it did for the "jolly hostess" on NatEx.

It wasn’t the minimum wage specifically, it was to do with whether a catering trolley host was an employee or not.

National Express Anglia tried to make their catering hosts on Stansted Express “self-employed”, with a small retainer but otherwise being paid according to their sales. A very similar model to courier firms. They lost in an employment tribunal and it doesn’t just bring in NMW it also brings in things like employer National Insurance.

 

[LowLevel]

London Midland got rid of trolleys on Birmingham to Liverpool because it wasn't making money. The problem is that under Central Trains there was a large network of trolleys on their Citylink routes which could be run more efficiently and cover most of their costs. Liverpool, Cardiff etc could all be serviced from Birmingham, along with their other catering depots in the east.

Once that network was broken up EMT and XC were left with still fairly substantial "Regional Express" operations which could justify the retention of their trolley catering - EMT in particular combining their Regional catering outsourcing contract with that of the Intercity services.

LM effectively had Brum to Liverpool, the Trent Valley service at the time being a slower affair via Stoke, so needed only a handful of trolleys and staff with all the costs that entails.

To this day I don't think the remaining Brum - Liverpool service could justify catering.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

To this day I don't think the remaining Brum - Liverpool service could justify catering.

Stock it full of booze on a weekend and you'd easily cover the weeks' costs.

Have the catering depot a Crewe for all LNWR services, Avanti have catering trolley changes there already

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stock it full of booze on a weekend and you'd easily cover the weeks' costs.

And make the antisocial behaviour problem on those trains even worse!

 

[sk688]

Perhaps trains should have a vending machine. No good for hot drinks but you could at least get a Coke and a choc bar if you didn't have time to stock up before boarding.

The Stadler Kiss units on the Westbahn services running on the Vienna-Munich route had vending machines, alongside hot drink machines which seemed pretty simple, and pretty well patronised when i travelled on the line

 

[SCDR_WMR]

And make the antisocial behaviour problem on those trains even worse!

Well it can't really get too much worse

 

[RailWonderer]

No both services where after 9am. I never found out as to why there was no buffet service, other than perhaps on the days that I travelled that there was perhaps not enough staff for some reason.

I had this on a GWR service back into Paddington in the evening, it was announced as due to a staff shortage, but on LNER it's more unusual as they operate longer distance services mostly.