Could WMT operate a trolley service on their LNR routes from Birmingham to London/Liverpool?

[Baz2000]

HI all ,

I was wondering why West Midlands Trains doesn't provide a trolly service on their longer LNR routes such as Birmingham to London & Birmingham to Liverpool.

I think it would be a good idea; after all, both are quite long services 1 1/2 to 2 hours approx.

I am sure they could do things such as crisps, cheese sandwiches, cold drinks such as Pepsi, and tea & coffee in cups.

I think would work and passengers would like it, i believe going from memory when Silverlink ran the service to London they had a trolley service, thanks.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

HI all , i was wondering why LNW doesnt have a trolly service on there longer routes such as Birmingham to London & Birmingham to liverpool, i think it would be a good idea , after all both are quite long services 1.1/2 to 2 hours aprox, in sure they could do things such as crisps, cheese sandwichs cold drinks such as pepsi , and tea & coffee in cups, i think would work and passengers would like it, i belive going from memory when silverlink ran the service to london they had a trolly service, thanks

HI all , i was wondering why LNW doesnt have a trolly service on there longer routes such as Birmingham to London & Birmingham to liverpool, i think it would be a good idea , after all both are quite long services 1.1/2 to 2 hours aprox, in sure they could do things such as crisps, cheese sandwichs cold drinks such as pepsi , and tea & coffee in cups, i think would work and passengers would like it, i belive going from memory when silverlink ran the service to london they had a trolly service, thanks

Silverlink did indeed have a brief flirtation with Trolleys back in its time. Didn't last long though.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I very much doubt it would work if by working you mean it would be profitable. Until about 10 years ago London Midland did have trolley services on Crewe - Euston services but they were withdrawn. They will have been withdrawn because they were loss making.

 

[zwk500]

Probably because south of Rugby the trolley wouldn't be able to get very far down the train, and the overheads are pretty sizeable for a service that would only be used on comparatively few trains.

 

[trainophile]

LNR are strictly a no frills operation, you've only got to try the 3+2 seats with no arm rests, no tables, no power sockets in the unrefurbed units (green seats). You're lucky if there's a working toilet.

 

[jfollows]

Liverpool-Birmingham initially had a trolley service too.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Even back in NSE days - the trials of trolleys on both the Northampton lines and even on Thameslink Bedford to Brighton failed as they made no money - and frankly one felt sorry for the staff as they did no business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe (and to make it clear I'm not in opposition to it) that the minimum wage caused issues with trolley economics, just like it did for the "jolly hostess" on NatEx.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

There has been many conversations regarding at seat services internally, prior to 2020 there was a plan to reintroduce it onto Trent services initially but that has since been put onto the back burner.

Managers at my depot have put a case forward to execs again this month so we shall see whether anything comes of it, unlikely given the cost implications with no guarantee of being profitable. Especially given finance is all DfT controlled!

Have to get rid of the 350/2 though, would be nigh on impossible to get through.

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps trains should have a vending machine. No good for hot drinks but you could at least get a Coke and a choc bar if you didn't have time to stock up before boarding.

 

[Intercity110]

Perhaps trains should have a vending machine. No good for hot drinks but you could at least get a Coke and a choc bar if you didn't have time to stock up before boarding.

Where would you put it, though?

 

[zwk500]

Perhaps trains should have a vending machine. No good for hot drinks but you could at least get a Coke and a choc bar if you didn't have time to stock up before boarding.

Japanese trains have these don't they? I can see it doing decent business for a reasonable amount of the day, but the risk would be what happens to them on the midnight departures from Euston

 

[Trainfan2019]

One of the LNWR plus points for me is no trolleys.

As any regular traveller knows, trolleys on trains are overpriced and often are blocking aisles or vestibules.

 

[JonathanH]

trolleys on trains are overpriced

...and people wonder why they aren't available on many trains any more.

The point is how many people are prepared to pay for the value of convenience, rather than comparing the price with what it would cost in a supermarket. If it isn't many, that will be why there aren't trolleys on the trains in question.

 

[185143]

LNR are strictly a no frills operation, you've only got to try the 3+2 seats with no arm rests, no tables, no power sockets in the unrefurbed units (green seats). You're lucky if there's a working toilet.

Not that I'm disagreeing with any of that, but so's Lumo.

 

[Urban Gateline]

...and people wonder why they aren't available on many trains any more.

The point is how many people are prepared to pay for the value of convenience, rather than comparing the price with what it would cost in a supermarket. If it isn't many, that will be why there aren't trolleys on the trains in question.

Exactly, most of the time there are plenty of shops before boarding, especially at large terminus stations!

Not that I'm disagreeing with any of that, but so's Lumo.

A bit different as Lumo go all the way from London to Edinburgh, not just Birmingham or Crewe, trains are also made for intercity journeys unlike the 350's (like others have said, especially Mark 2 350's with 3+2 Seating make it impossible to get a Trolley through!)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

...and people wonder why they aren't available on many trains any more.
The point is how many people are prepared to pay for the value of convenience, rather than comparing the price with what it would cost in a supermarket. If it isn't many, that will be why there aren't trolleys on the trains in question.

But it's odd that TfW provide a pretty good trolley service on most long distance trains, and LNR has some similar journey times.
Why would you get a trolley on 2-hour Crewe-Cardiff/Holyhead services but not on Crewe-London?

 

[JonathanH]

Why would you get a trolley on 2-hour Crewe-Cardiff/Holyhead services but not on Crewe-London?

Presumably the Welsh Government is prepared to underwrite the costs involved.

 

[zwk500]

But it's odd that TfW provide a pretty good trolley service on most long distance trains, and LNR has some similar journey times.
Why would you get a trolley on 2-hour Crewe-Cardiff/Holyhead services but not on Crewe-London?

Because the trolley is never too far away on a TfW service and the aisle is full with people standing up on an LNR service so you'd never sell more than a handful of coffees.

 

[dk1]

I was extremely surprised when it was removed from Crewe-Euston services a few years ago I must admit. A poor decision in my view.

 

[185143]

Because the trolley is never too far away on a TfW service and the aisle is full with people standing up on an LNR service so you'd never sell more than a handful of coffees.

Have you seen the travelling conditions onboard most longer distance TfW services since the 175 fires?

 

[zwk500]

Have you seen the travelling conditions onboard most longer distance TfW services since the 175 fires?

Well with the current spate of 175 issues maybe TfW should expand their offering to an al fresco grill as well? Welsh lamb would be a good offering politically

 

[philosopher]

But it's odd that TfW provide a pretty good trolley service on most long distance trains, and LNR has some similar journey times.
Why would you get a trolley on 2-hour Crewe-Cardiff/Holyhead services but not on Crewe-London?

The vast majority of stations served by LNR will have catering, so those using LNR services who want to eat or drink something can generally buy something from the station, where there will be more choice than there would be from a trolley. TfW serve a lot of quiet rural stations that may not have catering, hence they may have more demand from a trolley.

 

[Brubulus]

Vending machines could do quite well on these services in my view, as they'd be far more consistent than a trolley. However, it would take out 2 seats if it was not to serve hot drinks, and 4 seats if it did so there's a balance to be struck when compared to the additional costs from a trolley.

 

[Neo9320]

Vending machines also have the drawbacks of maintenance requirements, restocking key items (thus requiring more onboard storage), cashless operations that require a pretty good internet connection, and not to mention the amount of heat they kick out would require extra aircon during the summer (welcomed during the winter I’d expect). Plus if a replacement unit is required the amount of work required would take a unit out of service.

Stick to heading to your local supermarket of choice prior to boarding. If there’s a coffee shop on the station, get a hot drink from there.

 

[Brubulus]

Vending machines also have the drawbacks of maintenance requirements, restocking key items (thus requiring more onboard storage), cashless operations that require a pretty good internet connection, and not to mention the amount of heat they kick out would require extra aircon during the summer (welcomed during the winter I’d expect). Plus if a replacement unit is required the amount of work required would take a unit out of service.

Stick to heading to your local supermarket of choice prior to boarding. If there’s a coffee shop on the station, get a hot drink from there.

I'd presume they'd be restocked as part of daily cleaning etc and not on the move. If a unit needs replacing I'd hope it was dealt with as part of the normal maintainance cycle and a unit was not taken out of service for that specific reason.

 

[RailWonderer]

I was extremely surprised when it was removed from Crewe-Euston services a few years ago I must admit. A poor decision in my view.

Not every catering offering is as broad in variety as the GA buffet and trolleys. Hands down the Norwich IC catering offer wins and not even LNER or Avanti can compete. Hot and cold drinks, pastries, sponge cakes, crisps, fruits, good sandwiches, but with that comes passengers in the habit of using it.

Crewe - Euston passengers use the service for short hops a lot more and the offering being more limited (and overpriced) meant they were were less inclined to use it I believe.

 

[dk1]

Not every catering offering as as broad in variety as the GA buffet and trolleys. Hands down the Norwich IC catering offer wins and not even LNER or Avanti can compete. Hot and cold drinks, pastries, sponde cakes, crisps, fruits, good sandwiches, but with that comes passengers habit of using it.

Crewe - Euston passengers use the service for short hops a lot more so were less inclined to use the trolley I believe.

I’ve been quite impressed with LNER recently but not used Avanti as much since VT days when I considered it very good indeed. Cross Country believe it or not are another favourite of mine on non-170 routes. It seemed to me that one of the important things with Crewe-Euston was winning those longer distance passengers and it is a route of decent length into the capital.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Presumably the Welsh Government is prepared to underwrite the costs involved.

When Arriva won the franchise way back in the day , catering was not part of the deal - however they offered to provide same for a modest add on , (ex Alphaline services) ,so it was considered and added in - not just for a passenger benefit directly as it was seen amongst other things as a good recruitment tool , as well as a decent "job creation" means in such places as Carmarthen , Machynlleth and so on It really was not a lot of money in the big picture - and these on train services have survived.

 

[daodao]

Why would you get a trolley on 2-hour Crewe-Cardiff/Holyhead services but not on Crewe-London?

Having recently travelled on the Crewe-Cardiff route, there was no mention of any trolley service in station/on train publcity, no trolley service was provided in either direction, and no apology for its absence was made via the on train tannoy system. While advertised in the timetable, and listed as a facility for this service on National Rail enquiries, I presume that on board refreshment services have now been withdrawn on this route.

I note that there is no longer any on board train catering on any ex-Southern Region services (other than XC between Basingstoke and Bournemouth) and cannot imagine any viable rationale for its (re-)introduction on the LNWR semi-fast services on the WCML.