Couldn't Find Digital Railcard on Phone

[syr]

Hi all, long time lurker on this forum and a massive rail enthusiast myself. Never had any real issues of my own in years of regular rail travel, but unfortunately my little sister has been a bit stupid and got herself into some trouble.
On 1st June, she attempted to travel from Leeds to Doncaster, and had a valid ticket with the 16-25 railcard discount applied. She has a valid & in date digital railcard, and tells me she couldn't find it on her phone during this journey, so RPIs must have been involved afterwards. She is autistic and struggles with communication, and I don't know if she failed to effectively communicate the situation to the guard or RPIs, as what Northern are asking for feels like a disproportionate response to the genuine mistake of a vulnerable individual who did in fact have both a valid ticket and railcard, but didn't have the mental capacity to find the latter.

A letter was received the other day asking her to pay a FPN of £114 by next week or it will go to court. I don't know if she was given the option of a penalty fare before this, communicating with her is not easy and she hadn't even mentioned the situation until the letter was received - in fact, I don't think she would have told us if I didn't have the good fortune to be stood behind her as she opened the letter. Is it normal to go straight to a FPN for the situation she described to us? I've seen plenty of people make genuine mistakes such as getting on the wrong train or forgetting their railcard, and have never witnessed a railway employee take a passenger's details for anything that wasn't an obvious attempt at evading a fare.

From reading previous threads, I expect that the consensus will be that she really ought to pay the fine as other options aren't worth it, but it really irks me that this is happening to her when she made no attempt to fare evade. Would anyone suggest it is worth fighting? I want to advise her to always buy from a staffed ticket office in future but unfortunately with the recent proposals it seems the DfT/RDG want to make the railway even less accessible to disabled people & probably increase the chance of incidents like this.

 

[tomuk]

From the 16-25 railcard site:

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?
A:
If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

So if this is the first time your sister has had a problem then the operator should give her the benefit of the doubt. Are you able to upload redacted i.e. names and address blanked out, copy of the letter.

 

[Snow1964]

If you have problem with communication or using a phone screen quickly, it is not good idea to have a digital railcard, rather than the physical version. It is much easier to show physical version if likely to get flustered trying to find a digital one.

Unfortunately there are those who try and pull the vulnerable stunt (who aren't) which can make it difficult to know genuine cases from someone messing about or stalling and not finding it.

But good news is if it is first offence, (one per year) and respond quickly with copy of the railcard, normally let off providing the ticket was good that required the railcard. Normally apologise for inability to show it, enclose a copy of railcard, and importantly reply before deadline, and ask for confirmation that this ends it.

If already happened before, and used up your grace one, just pay up as consequences of court could be lot more (goes on record, and amount likely to be nearer £300-400 as will add court fees, surcharges etc)

Others will be here soon to offer advice soon

 

[fandroid]

It can't be a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) as they have to be issued on the spot, so it's not a statutory time limit, just one the railway company uses within its own processes. That doesn't mean it's OK to let things drift!

Put a copy of the letter up here so that we can see what the best advice is, but Snow1964 is right about what to do if it's just a question of a valid Railcard

 

[AlterEgo]

Previous posters have missed that the OP hasn’t been penalty fared or made to purchase a new ticket, and so the exemption in the railcard TnCs cannot be relied upon.

The amount should be paid and redress sought retrospectively from Northern’s customer services in my view, quoting the TnCs not as chapter and verse but in hope of getting a gesture of goodwill.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

If it was a railcard that couldn't be produced then I'd expect it to be dealt with under the forgotten railcard process. I do wonder whether it was the railcard that couldn't be founf on the phone or the ticket itself?

Perhaps the OP could upload a copy of the letter that has been received, but do redact any personal details.

 

[syr]

Hi there, I have attached to this post a copy of the letter received.
I thought it unusual that they would issue such a fine for not being able to find a railcard, so I'm not sure if she has misunderstood what happened.

I completely agree with the point made about digital railcards being a poor choice for travelers with communication difficulties, unfortunately my dad bought it for her using Tesco clubcard points over christmas and opted for a digital version. She does actually have a physical one somewhere that is still in date, but doesn't know where it is.

Nothing like this has happened before, this is the first time, and the full journey was actually from Blackpool North but she seems to have encountered no issue on the first leg over to Leeds.
So the best course of action is to pay this ~£114 by the due date and contact Northern's customer services explaining the situation and proving that she did in fact have both a valid ticket and railcard, but wasn't able to show them?

 

[AlterEgo]

That letter says that she didn't pay the full fare and intended not to pay the full fare.

That's not the same as failing to show a valid railcard on request; when was the railcard bought, and what did she say to the inspector?

 

[Snow1964]

@syr Just to be clear, as it will help others decide, did she have a ticket from Blackpool to Doncaster, but is only be charged for part of the journey, Leeds to Doncaster. Or was there just a ticket Blackpool-Leeds (continued journey beyond ticket destination)

Do you still have the physical tickets, or email purchase confirmation, or if bought them online, able to see in account history.

The letter is that didn't pay full fare with intent to avoid paying,

 

[syr]

She had paid for a ticket from Blackpool to Doncaster but as it was bought via Trainline (I know, I will tell her to stop using that godawful app...) I suspect it may have been a split ticket. However, I'm not 100% sure.

Update: Some further digging suggests she got the facts wrong, and this journey was actually one she had made to Huddersfield to visit our grandmother.
Unfortunately all I can get right now is this screenshot of her Trainline receipt.

She now tells me the staff said they would email her for railcard details, but she has received nothing.
Whether that's actually the case or she's just missed it, I have no clue.

 

[Haywain]

That letter says that she didn't pay the full fare and intended not to pay the full fare.

The letter is that didn't pay full fare with intent to avoid paying,

If only a discounted fare was paid and no supporting railcard was produced at the time or subsequently, then the full fare was not paid. Intent will have been demonstrated by paying the reduced fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

If only a discounted fare was paid and no supporting railcard was produced at the time or subsequently, then the full fare was not paid. Intent will have been demonstrated by paying the reduced fare.

The point is the allegation is worded as though the OP's daughter had no right to the discount.

She did, but merely failed to show the railcard, and hence the allegation should instead say something along those lines.

It's not true that someone who has a valid railcard and who purchases a rightly discounted ticket has "intent not to pay the full fare" by the mere omission of showing said railcard on the trip. That should be contested.

 

[Haywain]

The point is the allegation is worded as though the OP's daughter had no right to the discount.

She did, but merely failed to show the railcard, and hence the allegation should instead say something along those lines.

It's not true that someone who has a valid railcard and who purchases a rightly discounted ticket has "intent not to pay the full fare" by the mere omission of showing said railcard on the trip. That should be contested.

The railcard hasn't been produced to evidence the right to the discount, hence the wording. It really isn't that complicated!

 

[Hadders]

We could do with seeing the exact ticket details but:

If the ticket was valid for the train the OP's sister travelled on, other than for the lack of being able to produce the railcard, then I would reply to Northern, enclosing a copy of the ticket and railcard referring to the industry procedure for forgotten railcards. I would expect a favourable outcome in these circumstances.

If the ticket was not valid for the exact train the OP's sister travelled on (e.g. Advance ticket wrong train etc) then I would pay the settlement to avoid the matter escalating.

 

[gray1404]

Provided this is simply a case of a forgotten railcard, in other words it was not possible for whatever reason for it to be produced on inspection, and there are no further ticketing irregularities I would suggest the following: -

You respond to Northern's letter simply stating that the tickets were produced but rather the railcard was unavailable. I would quote the rules above which allow for a forgotten railcard once a year. I would state that you are replying on your daughter's behalf because she has autism. I would state that you trust this will now bring the matter to a satisfactory close.

I would enclose the following with the letter:
A copy of the tickets
A copy of the forgotten railcard
Any medical evidence you have proving that she has autism
A signed brief letter from your daughter giving permission for you to act on her behalf and correspond with Northern.

Finally why don't you check if she is eligible for a disabled persons Railcard.

 

[robbeech]

They assume intent to avoid paying the full fare as the railcard wasn’t shown when it was asked to be shown by a member of staff.
The RORA offence is based around intent. Showing that a railcard was held at the time should ge all that us needed to show there was no intent to avoid the fare.

If anything this is a better situation than a Byelaw offence which is strict liability.

 

[Haywain]

They assume intent to avoid paying the full fare as the railcard wasn’t shown when it was asked to be shown by a member of staff.
The RORA offence is based around intent. Showing that a railcard was held at the time should ge all that us needed to show there was no intent to avoid the fare.

I agree with this, and would expect that if the railcard is produced that will be the end of the matter (assuming there isn't a previous instance of failing to produce the railcard in the last 12 months).

 

[syr]

Thank you all, I definitely feel more optimistic now.
I've had a chance to look at her Trainline purchase history, and she definitely had a ticket that was valid on that train w/ the railcard discount- we can easily prove that she had both a valid ticket and railcard at the time.
I have also had a chance to search through her emails for any sign of contact from Northern asking for the railcard details (as the RPIs said they would send an email asking for this) but haven't found anything - anyone know what the subject line might be?

 

[AlterEgo]

The railcard hasn't been produced to evidence the right to the discount, hence the wording. It really isn't that complicated!

No, not complicated at all - there is, on the face of it, no intent. Where are you getting the intent part from? This is a simple forgotten/not-displayed railcard.

This hinges on what was said, and whether indeed a valid railcard was held.

Did the OP's daughter misstep and say "oh I don't think I have a railcard?", for example?

They assume intent to avoid paying the full fare as the railcard wasn’t shown when it was asked to be shown by a member of staff.

That is not in any way shape or form intent, in and of itself. Prosecuting authorities cannot assume intent, they have to evidence it.

Intent is inferred by actions. This might be evidenced by, non-exhaustively:
- doughnutting
- outright refusal to pay
- deliberate short faring
- falsified ticket
- screenshotted or edited railcard
- a direct admission

but not by the simple act of being unable to show a railcard.

The OP should respond with a copy of the railcard but be cogniscant of two things:

1) They have been misadvised about the strength of the TnCs upthread. You are only entitled to do one of two things if you forget your railcard, and that is to refund a duplicate purchase ticket, and to appeal a Penalty Fare. Neither of these things apply in this case; this has been reported for prosecution.
2) The allegation of intent to avoid a fare is unsubstantiated in the first instance and there is a clear defence against it, as I have laid out. The company will be able to submit no evidence to substantiate that allegation, especially if the Railcard is submitted.

 

[Haywain]

but not by the simple act of being unable to show a railcard.

You are, either deliberately or otherwise, choosing to overlook the fact that at this stage the company have no evidence that a railcard exists and will therefore be assuming that it does not.

 

[AlterEgo]

You are, either deliberately or otherwise, choosing to overlook the fact that at this stage the company have no evidence that a railcard exists and will therefore be assuming that it does not.

No, you are overlooking the fact that simply failing to display a railcard is not in any way evidence of intent to evade a fare. Do not suggest I am deliberately overlooking something; I post in good faith like everyone else.

The railway company needs to show and evidence the intent, not the other way around. It isn’t entitled to just consider the OP’s daughter a liar and a deliberate fare evader simply by default.

Else by your logic every ticket infraction is cited as a RORA intent matter until proven otherwise. That is patently not the case for the reasons I just outlined, and you can see that Northern do not follow this fatuous line of argument because they are happy to cite “failed to produce a valid ticket for your journey” here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/whether-to-appeal-a-fixed-penalty-notice-with-northern.245774/ with no intent alleged.

This is a plain as day forgotten/undisplayed railcard. That Northern have written it up as an intent allegation makes it potentially more serious and the OP should check with his daughter exactly what was said and whether any admissions were made, even if these were mistaken (like “oh…I don’t have a railcard maybe?” “I do this all the time, I never pay full fare”).

As we are advising the OP to

- push back against this unregulated “fixed penalty” and
- we are certain a Bylaw 18 offence at minimum has been committed, and
- the provisions in the TnCs of the railcard do not give the “out” some posters think it does, and
- unlike a Penalty Fare, challenging this fixed penalty does not come with a protection from criminal prosecution…

…it is wise for the OP to cover off the circumstances with his daughter to ensure no other admissions or infractions were present when she was stopped.

 

[tomuk]

Why are they issuing offers of out of court settlements headed as 'Fixed Penalty Notices' like some cheap private parking firm?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are they issuing offers of out of court settlements headed as 'Fixed Penalty Notices' like some cheap private parking firm?

Because they are unregulated, unlike Penalty Fares. They’re contemptuous.

 

[fandroid]

Can we just be clear in our posts about the relationship between the OP and the person who received the "FPN" from Northern. They are brother and sister, with the OP being the brother. See post #1

 

[Snow1964]

Before the Op gets overloaded

Need to reply before deadline (by recorded letter or email)

State clearly did have ticket for train being used, and railcard, but due to problems failed to display railcard when asked, apologise for this.

Enclose copies of both ticket and railcard

If doing it on behalf of sister state why, get her to sign to confirm, and add medical evidence of reason she cannot do it.

Ask for it to be dealt with under the once a year unable to show railcard rules, where can send in copy afterwards. Ask for confirmation that this closes case and no further action.

You have to make assumption they don't know railcard exists, so can treat it as no valid ticket. Don't mention they got wrong start point, or you don't like style of their letter etc either. If in the unlikely case they don't close it, then feel free to come back for further advice.

 

[Haywain]

No, you are overlooking the fact that simply failing to display a railcard is not in any way evidence of intent to evade a fare. Do not suggest I am deliberately overlooking something; I post in good faith like everyone else.

I am not overlooking anything. And I suggested you were doing so either deliberately or otherwise - I will accept that it is otherwise, as you say it isn't deliberate.

This is a plain as day forgotten/undisplayed railcard.

Based solely on what the OP has told us, that is correct. However...

That Northern have written it up as an intent allegation makes it potentially more serious and the OP should check with his daughter exactly what was said and whether any admissions were made, even if these were mistaken (like “oh…I don’t have a railcard maybe?” “I do this all the time, I never pay full fare”).

My point being exactly this - that there is another potential side to the story and we do not know the details of the interaction between the OP's sister and Northern's representative. If it was as you set out in the above paragraph, there would be a clear demonstration of intent to avoid payment of the correct fare, which is what I have been saying. As always, there are two sides to a story and we should not get too tied up in one side of the story to completely ignore the other.