Countdown markers

[ralphchadkirk]

I've noticed what appear to be countdown markers just south of Bedford, Are these counting down distance or speed? Sorry for my ignorance.

Some are for Sandite trains. From memory /// is an advance warning of the section to be sandited, // means start applying and / means stop applying.

 

[Pumbaa]

I've noticed what appear to be countdown markers just south of Bedford, Are these counting down distance or speed? Sorry for my ignorance.

Distance to end of OLE perhaps? There is similar on the WLL.

 

[driver9000]

Sandite boards are small yellow boards usually near rail height, countdown boards are white with red stripes.

End of OLE sounds plausible, I'm sure I've seen countdowns on the NLL at the locations 313s changed between AC and DC.

 

[asylumxl]

OHLE could be likely? They are lcd numbers,which I'm guessing are polarised, and go lower as you get closer. Pretty sure they're not sandlite markers.

 

[jon0844]

The problem i could see would be unions, train drivers beleive (rightly or wrongly) that their job requires more skill than a bus driver. However if they had signs saying brake here (or distance markers, and they know the stopping distances) then it would relegate the job to not missing a sign, and hitting the brakes if anyone is on the tracks/ emergancies.

Then im sure mr Mcnulty would be wondering why train drivers get paid more than bus drivers, when the modified job would definately be easier than driving a bus.

You could then go on to suggest trains that already have GPS and other means to 'know' its location could have a system that actually notifies the driver of things coming up, like stations, and if you need to stop there. I suppose it could also give information based on the train and how long it is, as the computer would presumably know that too!

But then, with in-cab signalling added in, you'd be getting to the point where the driver is much like an airline pilot and not having to do anything (if s/he doesn't want to) and there mostly for emergencies and other unforeseen circumstances.

Pilots still get paid loads for being prepared for the unexpected, but would a train driver?

I think that the current setup may be quite 'old-school' but it works and does justify the money a driver gets paid. However, that said, even though a London taxi driver has to do the knowledge, many now still appreciate and use a SatNav to make their job easier.

 

[Rugd1022]

Reading between the lines, it looks like some of the answers relating to baking distances have been from passenger drivers (apologies if I've got it wrong chaps ) but when it comes to the braking of heavy freights it can be a very different ball game.... you can have the same loco and set of wagons all week but the braking characteristics can still feel different each time you apply the auto brake, even if you do so at the same 'mark' on each successive day along the same route. Empty wagons will be lighter of course, but the aerodynamics / turbulance they cause in windy conditions can slow you down by a surprising amount (even more so if you're on a rising gradient) which means you 'have a bit in hand' and don't need to apply the brake as much, or you can leave the initial application till you're a bit further on.

Sorry to veer of topic a bit, but all these factors are bound up together with our route knowledge, just as much as the speeds, junctions, stations etc are....

 

[Old Timer]

Sorry to veer of topic a bit, but all these factors are bound up together with our route knowledge, just as much as the speeds, junctions, stations etc are....

Not at all. It just goes to show that some of the so called "mitigations" are really just a panacea.

We need a root and branch re-think and the removal of the paranoia about SPaDs which are contained within the overlap. That is after all what the overlap was/is provided for.

 

[strange6]

Reading between the lines, it looks like some of the answers relating to baking distances have been from passenger drivers (apologies if I've got it wrong chaps ) but when it comes to the braking of heavy freights it can be a very different ball game.... you can have the same loco and set of wagons all week but the braking characteristics can still feel different each time you apply the auto brake, even if you do so at the same 'mark' on each successive day along the same route. Empty wagons will be lighter of course, but the aerodynamics / turbulance they cause in windy conditions can slow you down by a surprising amount (even more so if you're on a rising gradient) which means you 'have a bit in hand' and don't need to apply the brake as much, or you can leave the initial application till you're a bit further on.

Sorry to veer of topic a bit, but all these factors are bound up together with our route knowledge, just as much as the speeds, junctions, stations etc are....

I assume you're a freight driver? By god, i'm amazed at the length and tonnage of some of these things when fully laden - kings of the road; that's what you lot are!

 

[Rugd1022]

I assume you're a freight driver? By god, i'm amazed at the length and tonnage of some of these things when fully laden - kings of the road; that's what you lot are!

Yes, with Freightliner Heavyhaul... our trains aren't really that long, average length is twenty bogie wagons which equates to about a thousand feet, but the tonnage varies from around 600 tons empty up to 2,400 tons loaded with stone. The longest train we've worked is the High Output Ballast Cleaner (HOBC), which requires careful planning when it comes to pathing it as there aren't many loops long enough to accomodate it

 

[strange6]

Yes, with Freightliner Heavyhaul... our trains aren't really that long, average length is twenty bogie wagons which equates to about a thousand feet, but the tonnage varies from around 600 tons empty up to 2,400 tons loaded with stone. The longest train we've worked is the High Output Ballast Cleaner (HOBC), which requires careful planning when it comes to pathing it as there aren't many loops long enough to accomodate it

wow, fascinating stuff. I bet your track fees are enormous for weights like that!

 

[DarloRich]

I've noticed what appear to be countdown markers just south of Bedford, Are these counting down distance or speed? Sorry for my ignorance.

if someone can tell me how to put a picture up i will show you them - i was at bedford waiting for the bletchley train as i read this!

 

[asylumxl]

There's a box saying manage attatchments usually which i can't seem to find!

 

[DarloRich]

There's a box saying manage attatchments usually which i can't seem to find!

The first picture is at the south end of platform 1 ( up slow?) and the second is at the south end of platform 3 ( up & down platfrom loop)

hopefully attached here!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Those look like sandite boards to me.

 

[DarloRich]

There are of course the flashing engineering work site marker boards - could that be what the OP saw?

 

[Hydro]

I'm sure I've seen red on white countdown markers to some open/TMO level crossings, probably because they have a 5mph PSR or are required to stop before proceeding.

 

[asylumxl]

Nope it's not those. These are towards Bedford Cauldwell TMD. Just before the entrance to it. I've said this before. They have numbers. They're most visible at night.

 

[Hydro]

The longest train we've worked is the High Output Ballast Cleaner (HOBC), which requires careful planning when it comes to pathing it as there aren't many loops long enough to accomodate it

Do you guys still operate the top and tailed 66's in tandem on the HO jobs? I saw the High Output Track Relaying Train fully made up and loaded through Temple Meads not so long ago and the rear engine had a driver with a radio, I assumed at the time in case the train needed a bit of a push.

 

[DarloRich]

Nope it's not those. These are towards Bedford Cauldwell TMD. Just before the entrance to it. I've said this before. They have numbers. They're most visible at night.

those signs i posted dont have numbers or illumination and they arent on the platform 2 line leading to the depot

Yes the HOBC is top and tailed by freightliner

 

[A-driver]

I think one of the other reason they don't put markers in for braking is to do with liability. If we drove to markers placed by NR or whoever and I applied the brakes in accordance with the unit specific braking policy and then shot through a station as long as the OTMR shows me braking at the board then whoever placed the board would have to take full responsibility. If I use a AWS as my braking point and slide through then I can be held responsible and my TOC can tell me that I should have had an earlier braking point. I can't see any manager anywhere who would put their name to braking posts.

As said here already the amount of variants with braking will also make this impossible in mainline networks. Unit type, last time brake pads were replaced, heat (you get brake fade on some units in hot weather), track conditions (yes-i mean leaves on the line, morning dew, light rain etc), unit length (an 8 car train is gonna stop way quicker than a 4 as there is more surface area and more brake force), load of the train, speed-are you running on greens or yellows/did you stop at the last station or are you semi fast and so doing far higher line speeds etc.

 

[pendolino]

OHLE could be likely? They are lcd numbers,which I'm guessing are polarised, and go lower as you get closer. Pretty sure they're not sandlite markers.

If they're LED (I'm assuming you mean LED not LCD), do the numbers change? Like on a digital clock?

 

[RPM]

There are countdown markers at signal ME12 on the approach to Marylebone which is situated right in the middle of St Johns Wood Tunnel. They provide quite a useful function as it is hard to judge your distance from a red signal at low speed in complete darkness on a curved approach. I believe they were actually put there at the suggestion of a driver.

 

[Rugd1022]

Do you guys still operate the top and tailed 66's in tandem on the HO jobs? I saw the High Output Track Relaying Train fully made up and loaded through Temple Meads not so long ago and the rear engine had a driver with a radio, I assumed at the time in case the train needed a bit of a push.

I haven't worked it for a while as it's no longer working on our patch, but yes when we did have it we worked it top 'n' tail with a driver on each loco. I was on the rear engine a few times and had to give my mate up front a push going up the Lickey.... we went through the platform at Bromsgrove doing about 50mph and were down to 18mph going over the top at Blackwell, with both of us in notch 8.

One very cold frosty night myself and another driver had to relieve the HOBC in platform 3 at Bedford heading north, he relieved the first driver on the front engine then pulled away so I could relieve the second driver on the rear one - the whole train took eight minutes to pass me as I waited on the platform, then once I was on board I had to give him a shove up Sharnbrook Bank from a standing start, I think we went over the top (on the fast line which is steeper than the slow line) at 15mph.

I've also done the same thing as 'tail end Charlie' coming back from Peterborough to Leicester with it, but my mate up front left it a little later than planned to ask me to give him a shove and we were doing about 20mph for much of the journey (the gradients on this stretch of line are quite deceptive!).

With prufuse apologies for veering off topic once more!

 

[Old Timer]

There are countdown markers at signal ME12 on the approach to Marylebone which is situated right in the middle of St Johns Wood Tunnel. They provide quite a useful function as it is hard to judge your distance from a red signal at low speed in complete darkness on a curved approach. I believe they were actually put there at the suggestion of a driver.

There is a similar arrangement in New St North Tunnel, with a number of marker lights on the approach to the signal in the tunnel which protects New St.

As you say it is incredibly difficult to accurately place the signal against the tunnel wall and the entrance lighting. The effectiveness was such that if one of the lights went out, trains were stopped at the signal in rear at Monument Lane waiting a clear run. I imagine this arrangement still exists.

 

[asylumxl]

If they're LED (I'm assuming you mean LED not LCD), do the numbers change? Like on a digital clock?

Yes probably LED with varying angles, and yes. They resemble calculator LCD displays.

 

[driver9000]

They sound like a low speed indicator found on depots to measure a trains speed below 5mph ie on a wash road which are 3mph.

 

[strange6]

There are countdown markers at signal ME12 on the approach to Marylebone which is situated right in the middle of St Johns Wood Tunnel. They provide quite a useful function as it is hard to judge your distance from a red signal at low speed in complete darkness on a curved approach. I believe they were actually put there at the suggestion of a driver.

I always thought they could could provide help to a driver in certain instances; that's why I started the thread. Good to hear that they do help coming from a professional.

 

[pendolino]

They sound like a low speed indicator found on depots to measure a trains speed below 5mph ie on a wash road which are 3mph.

My next question was going to be 'is there a washer on the depot reception road?' They sound just like that to me too.

 

[Old Timer]

I've noticed what appear to be countdown markers just south of Bedford, Are these counting down distance or speed? Sorry for my ignorance.

I wonder if these are "car markers" for trains arriving on the Up Slow line requiring to set back into the depot ?

This is a general arrangements where the various train configurations are set out on line side markers so that the Driver knows when the rear of the train is behind the GPLS or set back signal.

An arrangement such as this is to be found at Central Rivers.

 

[tirphil]

You could then go on to suggest trains that already have GPS and other means to 'know' its location could have a system that actually notifies the driver of things coming up, like stations, and if you need to stop there. I suppose it could also give information based on the train and how long it is, as the computer would presumably know that too!

But then, with in-cab signalling added in, you'd be getting to the point where the driver is much like an airline pilot and not having to do anything (if s/he doesn't want to) and there mostly for emergencies and other unforeseen circumstances.

ERTMS in cab signalling shows the driver how far he is permitted to travel and the maximum speed at which he may travel. It does not tell a driver the location of stations, level crossings etc.