Countries with Metre Gauge and 3 ft 6 inch Gauge networks with big loading gauges?

[Calthrop]

There are a few examples. A small railway in Sweden used the slightly odd gauge 1093 mm, due to a misunderstanding.

Sweden is renowned -- or has been in the past -- for being one of the world's countries with a great variety of public-railway gauges (possibly, in fact, the world record holder for that rather specialised title). Some of said gauges would appear at least to an outsider, unusual to the point of being totally random; others less so -- as with 1093 mm as per above; and 891 mm (used formerly, by many Swedish narrow gauge lines -- one such, still in regular normal passenger service today), which is three Swedish feet.

 

[mike57]

Australia has installed dual gauge on key routes in Victoria, Qld, NT and WA so that standard gauge trains can operate throughout between state capitals and their ports.

Austrailia has a network of 2ft gauge sugar cane lines in Queensland as well, and I think there is some evidence of dual gauge with 3ft 6in lines in the past.

 

[JonasB]

Some of said gauges would appear at least to an outsider, unusual to the point of being totally random; others less so -- as with 1093 mm as per above; and 891 mm (used formerly, by many Swedish narrow gauge lines -- one such, still in regular normal passenger service today), which is three Swedish feet.

1093 mm was maybe not totally random, but at least not what they aimed for. The company started building a railway using 1067 mm gauge, or 3.59 Swedish feet, and also ordered rolling stock. But when the locomotives arrived, they were built for 1093 mm gauge, 3.59 English feet. And they decided that is was easier to relay the track than to rebuild the locos.

 

[Calthrop]

Some of said gauges would appear at least to an outsider, unusual to the point of being totally random; others less so -- as with 1093 mm as per above; and 891 mm (used formerly, by many Swedish narrow gauge lines -- one such, still in regular normal passenger service today), which is three Swedish feet.

1093 mm was maybe not totally random, but at least not what they aimed for. The company started building a railway using 1067 mm gauge, or 3.59 Swedish feet, and also ordered rolling stock. But when the locomotives arrived, they were built for 1093 mm gauge, 3.59 English feet. And they decided that is was easier to relay the track than to rebuild the locos.

Some odd things altogether gauge-wise, involving "feet" of other than the British Imperial measures kind (this sort of stuff delights me). For instance, a German seeming oddity: the 785 mm gauge -- "at peak" not very common, but not unheard-of, in Germany (especially when Germany was more extensive than now); in both public, and industrial, contexts. This measurement is two and a half Prussian feet. The biggest and most impressive instance of its use, was in the Upper Silesia industrial area -- German territory when the great bulk of Europe's railways were being built. If I'm right, the only 785 mm now surviving in any kind of use, is in Upper Silesia -- now in Poland, of course -- a couple of short "heritage" remnants of the formerly huge industrial syatem on the gauge, in those parts.

 

[Tester]

Some odd things altogether gauge-wise, involving "feet" of other than the British Imperial measures kind (this sort of stuff delights me). For instance, a German seeming oddity: the 785 mm gauge -- "at peak" not very common, but not unheard-of, in Germany (especially when Germany was more extensive than now); in both public, and industrial, contexts. This measurement is two and a half Prussian feet. The biggest and most impressive instance of its use, was in the Upper Silesia industrial area -- German territory when the great bulk of Europe's railways were being built. If I'm right, the only 785 mm now surviving in any kind of use, is in Upper Silesia -- now in Poland, of course -- a couple of short "heritage" remnants of the formerly huge industrial syatem on the gauge, in those parts.

Another 'feet' one is that, as I understand it, the Spanish 5' 6" gauge is six Spanish feet.

 

[philthetube]

Oops, yes of course, I meant narrow gauge.

Re Italian metre gauge etc and the reasons for it, is it possible standard gauge is what it is because it was 5ft to the outside of the rails?

assuming you are referring to uk there, you could be right though I have heard that it relates to the space needed for horses to walk inside, there are certainly tracks which were originally horse drawn which are standard gauge.

 

[zwk500]

is it possible standard gauge is what it is because it was 5ft to the outside of the rails?

AIUI no, Stephenson always intended to measure standard gauge as between the inner edges. As I mentioned it was originally 4'8", before being eased by half an inch to help with cornering.

assuming you are referring to uk there, you could be right though I have heard that it relates to the space needed for horses to walk inside, there are certainly tracks which were originally horse drawn which are standard gauge.

The horse Width comes up regularly and is likely a convergence rather than a deliberate choice. There were a wide variety of gauges for horse drawn tramways, and road wagons also could vary in wheelbase.

 

[Tester]

AIUI no, Stephenson always intended to measure standard gauge as between the inner edges. As I mentioned it was originally 4'8", before being eased by half an inch to help with cornering.

The horse Width comes up regularly and is likely a convergence rather than a deliberate choice. There were a wide variety of gauges for horse drawn tramways, and road wagons also could vary in wheelbase.

At risk of straying a little off topic but possibly of interest, there is 'Scotch Gauge' (4' 6" or 1,372mm).

I understand that quite a few railways in Scotland were built to this, but generally converged to standard.

The gauge lives on in Japan, with some of the Tokyo underground and at least one of the 'private' railways using it with modern stock.

 

[edwin_m]

AIUI no, Stephenson always intended to measure standard gauge as between the inner edges. As I mentioned it was originally 4'8", before being eased by half an inch to help with cornering.

The horse Width comes up regularly and is likely a convergence rather than a deliberate choice. There were a wide variety of gauges for horse drawn tramways, and road wagons also could vary in wheelbase.

I assume it arose because of the width of the particular type of wagons in use on the colliery railways Stephenson initially worked on. Any of these gauges would have had to accommodated a horse between the rails, but that obviously leaves quite a lot of leeway. The Ffestiniog employed horse haulage on a gauge of less than 2ft.

 

[stuu]

AIUI no, Stephenson always intended to measure standard gauge as between the inner edges. As I mentioned it was originally 4'8", before being eased by half an inch to help with cornering.

Fair enough... but it's always troubled me very slightly that such a random number was chosen. Why wouldn't you just go for 5 feet? I assume it was custom and the existing mine wagons were that wide already by happenstance and so Stephenson stuck with what was in front of him

 

[Calthrop]

Another 'feet' one is that, as I understand it, the Spanish 5' 6" gauge is six Spanish feet.

At risk of straying a little off topic but possibly of interest, there is 'Scotch Gauge' (4' 6" or 1,372mm).

I understand that quite a few railways in Scotland were built to this, but generally converged to standard.

Also in Scotland: were not a few lines there (in the approx. Dundee area, would it have been) originally 5' 6" ? -- converted to standard at a fairly early date. I take it that the gauge similarity between there, and Spain, can be seen as coincidental: the Scottish lines concerned, having been built before there were railways in Spain -- one can't see their promoters knowing or caring about Spanish feet !

 

[eldomtom2]

The gauge lives on in Japan, with some of the Tokyo underground and at least one of the 'private' railways using it with modern stock.

What is interesting is that not only is the Japanese use of 4ft 6in apparently unconnected with its use in Scotland, but that why it was used in the first place appears to have been lost to time - its survival is due to lines being built to connect with the (originally horse-drawn) trams and keeping the gauge after most of the tram network closed in the 1970s, but why the trams adopted it in the first place is unknown.

 

[Paulwoking]

Rio Turbio - Argentina. 2-10-2s on 750mm

 

[ShadowKnight]

Gauge discussion makes me always wonder how the British railways would have looked like if the Brunel gauge became the dominant gauge

 

[zwk500]

Gauge discussion makes me always wonder how the British railways would have looked like if the Brunel gauge became the dominant gauge

Much fatter!

 

[edwin_m]

Gauge discussion makes me always wonder how the British railways would have looked like if the Brunel gauge became the dominant gauge

Probably about the same but quite a bit more expensive. The 1435mm gauge allows both very high speeds and very heavy loads (not necessarily on the same track), which are ultimately constrained by other factors. A broader gauge would increase the size and cost of track and running gear, and limit minimum curve radii, without delivering any benefit. With hindsight we are pretty lucky that the width of a Tyneside coal wagon turned out to be about right for so many other purposes.

 

[jumble]

on Germany's HSB metre gauge network, standard gauge freight wagons used to be carried on special underframes.

HSB also have some regauged ex standard Gauge Diesels class 110

 

[Calthrop]

Gauge discussion makes me always wonder how the British railways would have looked like if the Brunel gauge became the dominant gauge

Probably about the same but quite a bit more expensive. The 1435mm gauge allows both very high speeds and very heavy loads (not necessarily on the same track), which are ultimately constrained by other factors. A broader gauge would increase the size and cost of track and running gear, and limit minimum curve radii, without delivering any benefit. With hindsight we are pretty lucky that the width of a Tyneside coal wagon turned out to be about right for so many other purposes.

The mind goes to an interest-arousing newspaper comment piece -- maybe in the Guardian -- some years ago now; seemingly by some "journalistic clever-dick", not a scholar of railways as such (a while back, I started a thread re same, on "Speculative Discussion" -- Slightly odd thoughts re the 7 ft. gauge, OP 23/ 10 / 18). This chap's theme was that 7 ft.'s being the dominant gauge in Britain: would have been a good thing, since a rail system on that gauge would have been mostly a main-line one only. This: because a gauge that broad, would have been ill-suited to tortuously-wandering rural lines -- few of which would, thus, have been built. That would have been a good thing, because such lines were from the first, of doubtful point or benefit -- money-losers, which would in any case have been, before many decades were out, superseded and made irrelevant by the rise of road motor transport.

The overall general feeling in the thread; was that although there was something (not a great deal) to the guy's thesis about 7 ft. gauge's unsuitability for sharply-curved-and-steeply-graded rural routes: even if that had been a factor of much significance -- in the mid / late 19th-century climate of enthusiastic railway development, Britain's rail system would have turned out as dense as in "our real-life time-line", or more so (different no doubt, in routeing details). There would have just come to be, to the 7 ft. trunk-line network, a great number of feeder lines of gauge(s) of less breadth -- inaugurated by the main-line companies and / or private undertakings. (Break-of-gauge problems would have been seen as "there to be dealt with".) Humans are conspicuously not cautious or far-sighted: our way of functioning greatly tends to be, "go full-steam-ahead on what seems a good idea at the time; if it later proves less so -- it can be adjusted, or may adjust itself".

 

[Gostav]

The gauge lives on in Japan, with some of the Tokyo underground and at least one of the 'private' railways using it with modern stock.

Keio Line uses 1,372mm gauge railway because in the beginning the line was a tramway. Tokyo Metro Marunouchi Line also uses 1,372mm gauge track because they need to run through trains with Keio Line.

 

[apk55]

on Germany's HSB metre gauge network, standard gauge freight wagons used to be carried on special underframes.

Quite a lot of narrow gauge railways used transporter wagons to carry standard gauge wagons so presumably the line would have to be at the same loading gauge as standard gauge lines, although it is possible stock might be restricted in size.
This even ncluded some 750mm/760mm/2foot6 inch lines such as in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and even the UK (Leek and Manifold).

 

[ac6000cw]

Quite a lot of narrow gauge railways used transporter wagons to carry standard gauge wagons so presumably the line would have to be at the same loading gauge as standard gauge lines, although it is possible stock might be restricted in size.
This even included some 750mm/760mm/2foot6 inch lines such as in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and even the UK (Leek and Manifold).

I don't know if they still do it, but back in 2005 I watched the loading of standard gauge wagons onto Zillertalbahn 760mm gauge transporter wagons at Jenbach in Austria (from about the 2 minute point in the video):

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There is a network of metre gauge lines in Kenya/Uganda/Tanzania (not all currently in operation) with historically large locomotives and rolling stock. Similarly in Tunisia.

Those African railways, and others throughout the world, were able to carry standard sized shipping containers on flat wagons as they became commonplace. The UK, with it's very restrictive loading gauge despite its wider track gauge had to go through the process of improving it's lines to be able to carry those containers.

 

[zwk500]

Those African railways, and others throughout the world, were able to carry standard sized shipping containers on flat wagons as they became commonplace. The UK, with it's very restrictive loading gauge despite its wider track gauge had to go through the process of improving it's lines to be able to carry those containers.

*has to. There's still an awful lot of the GB network that can't take containers where it would be very valuable if they could.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

*has to. There's still an awful lot of the GB network that can't take containers where it would be very valuable if they could.

Yes, I was being brief and didn't want to get bogged down in W8, 9 10 and whatevers!

 

[Bald Rick]

I swear I saw a photo in Modern Railways about 40-45 years ago of a set of freight sidings (presumably exchange sidings) somewhere in Australia that were triple gauge. And what impressive switches they were!

Gauge trivia fact:

Standard gauge is Pi/2 yards
Broad gauge is Pi-1 metres

(to a couple of decimal places!)

 

[Beebman]

The Australian National Railway Museum in Port Adelaide has an 80-page PDF document 'South Australia's Mixed Gauge Muddle' (3.7 MB) which can be downloaded for free:

https://nrm.org.au/assets/pdfdocs/collections/multi-gauge-muddle.pdf

It has historical photos and track diagrams of dual- and triple-gauge stations in the state.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Australian National Railway Museum in Port Adelaide has an 80-page PDF document 'South Australia's Mixed Gauge Muddle' (3.7 MB) which can be downloaded for free:

https://nrm.org.au/assets/pdfdocs/collections/multi-gauge-muddle.pdf

It has historical photos and track diagrams of dual- and triple-gauge stations in the state.

fabulous stuff. Enough to give our track engineers palpitations.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The Australian National Railway Museum in Port Adelaide has an 80-page PDF document 'South Australia's Mixed Gauge Muddle' (3.7 MB) which can be downloaded for free:

https://nrm.org.au/assets/pdfdocs/collections/multi-gauge-muddle.pdf

It has historical photos and track diagrams of dual- and triple-gauge stations in the state.

Slightly OT, but the museum itself is a super place to visit. They insisted on letting me in free when they heard that I'd travelled all the way from Britain to see it. Got a personal run on their miniature line too.

 

[Tester]

Slightly OT, but the museum itself is a super place to visit. They insisted on letting me in free when they heard that I'd travelled all the way from Britain to see it. Got a personal run on their miniature line too.

Did you really go all the way from Britain to Port Adelaide just to visit the museum? I'm not surprised they let you in free

 

[Dr Hoo]

Did you really go all the way from Britain to Port Adelaide just to visit the museum? I'm not surprised they let you in free

It was one of my 'must sees' as I went across Australia by train in stages from Freemantle to Gosford (north of Sydney). It's amazing how much you can get for nothing just by showing an interest. I also had free travel on the local trains in Perth, a free day out (with transport pick-up) at the tram museum near Adelaide and a free day out with special tram rides at the tram museum near Sydney.

Australians are just so friendly (and generous). I never met a grumpy one. And the rail/tram fans just loved hearing stories about the equivalent modes in GB.

New Zealand was almost as good.

Sorry, OT again.