Coupling trains: which is safest?

[Chris217]

Coming back from Manchester to Liverpool a few weeks ago,I was
travelling on a class 185.
Arriving into Lime Street when the guard
announced that everyone remain seated
as the train was going to couple up to
another 185 before he opened the doors.

Then the train stopped,people still standing and a second or two later moved forward again to couple up to the other set.
Upon alighting,I asked the guard,why was it not possible to let everyone off the train first,then couple the trains up.
Surely that would have been safer?
He couldn't give me a reasonable answer and refused my question accusing me of
Not knowing what I was talking about as it was completely safe they way they did it.
Knowing that many passengers were still standing anyway because it was a busy service,they still did it that way.

A Network Rail staff member told me it was completely safe,but what if the train didn't successfully couple the first time,were all the passengers to be shunted on the train whilst trying to couple.?
He says I was talking rubbish and told me to move on!

 

[DarloRich]

It really is nothing to worry about. It is a common occurrence.

 

[Iskra]

It’s perfectly safe and it’s operationally easier that way.

Otherwise the guard would have to let everyone off, stop anyone from getting on. Close the doors. Allow the shunt, then let everyone on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For terminating trains at Euston they do tip out before coupling up (partly because it's a little safer, but also because it's more respectful of passenger time by letting them off before pratting about coupling up). At Northampton they don't.

It's a bit easier to tip out at Euston, though, as all the stock has porter buttons to allow a coach at a time to be emptied and locked out. Never understood why you didn't get those outside of the South East.

 

[306024]

It’s perfectly safe and it’s operationally easier that way.

Otherwise the guard would have to let everyone off, stop anyone from getting on. Close the doors. Allow the shunt, then let everyone on.

Meanwhile on the Great Eastern Railway standard practice is to allow the passengers to do what they have to do first, then couple or split the units. You don’t prevent them getting on before the units are attached.

 

[class387]

If it was dangerous (it isn't) then at places like Haywards Heath trains would have to be emptied mid journey while two portions couple up.

 

[Chris217]

The fact that it was
an already packed train with
people standing.
The guard knew this and asked for people to remain seated as we came out of the tunnels and into the station
Which IMO was not as safe .
The fact it was departing ecs as well like it was a must that the train joined up first seemed more important than letting everyone else off first!
I expect it's GAURDS discretion whichever way it's done,but as said above,it was pretty packed with people standing!
The NR staff member obviously standing by the gaurds actions as gospel.

 

[class387]

The fact that it was
an already packed train with
people standing.
The guard knew this and asked for people to remain seated as we came out of the tunnels and into the station
Which IMO was not as safe .
The fact it was departing ecs as well like it was a must that the train joined up first seemed more important than letting everyone else off first!
I expect it's GAURDS discretion whichever way it's done,but as said above,it was pretty packed with people standing!
The NR staff member obviously standing by the gaurds actions as gospel.

If Southern trains in the morning peak at Haywards Heath and Horsham aren't 'packed with people standing' I don't know which are.

 

[bramling]

Coming back from Manchester to Liverpool a few weeks ago,I was
travelling on a class 185.
Arriving into Lime Street when the guard
announced that everyone remain seated
as the train was going to couple up to
another 185 before he opened the doors.

Then the train stopped,people still standing and a second or two later moved forward again to couple up to the other set.
Upon alighting,I asked the guard,why was it not possible to let everyone off the train first,then couple the trains up.
Surely that would have been safer?
He couldn't give me a reasonable answer and refused my question accusing me of
Not knowing what I was talking about as it was completely safe they way they did it.
Knowing that many passengers were still standing anyway because it was a busy service,they still did it that way.

A Network Rail staff member told me it was completely safe,but what if the train didn't successfully couple the first time,were all the passengers to be shunted on the train whilst trying to couple.?
He says I was talking rubbish and told me to move on!

At King's Cross generally they would open the doors for a short while, then make an announcement along the lines of "the doors will be closed briefly whilst two trains are coupled together, anyone on board the train please take a seat for a few moments, the doors will be opened again immediately afterwards". However occasionally if the incoming service was late then the doors wouldn't be opened first. Never really caused a problem one way or the other, although it's preferable to be done the first way simple because it avoids delaying people.

 

[ComUtoR]

Which IMO was not as safe .

Why do you believe it was not as safe ? Is there any particular reason why and do you have any evidence to back it up ?

If you feel strongly that it was unsafe, have you reported it ?

FYI we couple up whilst passengers are still boarding.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I don't see that it matters much with modern stock... they certainly don't jolt like older trains used to when coupling up....

 

[SS4]

It may well be safer to have everyone remain on the train. The disembarkation of everyone (and their luggage), then having everyone mill around on the platform and jostle for position before rushing back on again in the hope of getting a seat this time

 

[Chris217]

Like I said
It was my opinion only
that as it had standing passengers
I felt it less safer for the guard to
allow the coupling up when it was
an already terminating service going back out ecs.Why was it so important that the trains had to be joined up first?
There were no passengers waiting to get on!
They didn't do it this way when I was at
London Waterloo recently.
Everyone got of our train and then the sets coupled up.
It may be because those trains are longer and that there may be a lot more standing.

If my train had standing passengers,I would let them all off first then couple up as it IS safer to do it that way.
The 185s have CCTV so the guard should have seen his train had standing passengers and considered the safer option to let them off first!
If you have different rules for whenever it suits,then expect accidents!

When the train stops,open doors to allow all passengers off safely first.
CCTV should allow the guard to check his train to See if it's empty or not,or if it's a short train,he could easily do a quick walk through.
Then close all doors then do the coupling up.The guard would walk to the other end of the train,then reopen the doors if it was going back out in service.
I am not saying it was dangerous,but it was the less safe of the two.
If the railways took safety as seriously as they claim,they wouldn't do things less safe would they,and I wouldn't be told to move on when they didn't like my enquiry as to why they chose less safe!

 

[Darandio]

Like I said
It was my opinion only
that as it had standing passengers
I felt it less safer for the guard to
allow the coupling up when it was
an already terminating service going back out ecs.Why was it so important that the trains had to be joined up first?
There were no passengers waiting to get on!
They didn't do it this way when I was at
London Waterloo recently.
Everyone got of our train and then the sets coupled up.
It may be because those trains are longer and that there may be a lot more standing.

If my train had standing passengers,I would let them all off first then couple up as it IS safer to do it that way.
The 185s have CCTV so the guard should have seen his train had standing passengers and considered the safer option to let them off first!
If you have different rules for whenever it suits,then expect accidents!

When the train stops,open doors to allow all passengers off safely first.
CCTV should allow the guard to check his train to See if it's empty or not,or if it's a short train,he could easily do a quick walk through.
Then close all doors then do the coupling up.The guard would walk to the other end of the train,then reopen the doors if it was going back out in service.
I am not saying it was dangerous,but it was the less safe of the two.
If the railways took safety as seriously as they claim,they wouldn't do things less safe would they,and I wouldn't be told to move on when they didn't like my enquiry as to why they chose less safe!

And breathe.....

Was anyone hurt? No? Thought not.

Here is what I believe. Your gripe isn't with the coupling process but because a member of staff said you were talking nonsense. Seems they may have a point.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW join/split 158s at Shrewsbury all day long, and let arrivals off before closing the doors and coupling up.
VT do the same with 221s at Chester.
Never any problem.

 

[221129]

Coming back from Manchester to Liverpool a few weeks ago,I was
travelling on a class 185.
Arriving into Lime Street when the guard
announced that everyone remain seated
as the train was going to couple up to
another 185 before he opened the doors.

Then the train stopped,people still standing and a second or two later moved forward again to couple up to the other set.
Upon alighting,I asked the guard,why was it not possible to let everyone off the train first,then couple the trains up.
Surely that would have been safer?
He couldn't give me a reasonable answer and refused my question accusing me of
Not knowing what I was talking about as it was completely safe they way they did it.
Knowing that many passengers were still standing anyway because it was a busy service,they still did it that way.

A Network Rail staff member told me it was completely safe,but what if the train didn't successfully couple the first time,were all the passengers to be shunted on the train whilst trying to couple.?
He says I was talking rubbish and told me to move on!

Seems the staff were correct... it's perfectly safe and happens all over the UK 100s of times a week...
And just an FYI the guard doesn't have a choice or discretion in this case.

 

[221129]

TfW join/split 158s at Shrewsbury all day long, and let arrivals off before closing the doors and coupling up.
VT do the same with 221s at Chester.
Never any problem.

XC do this as well but it is a pain in the rear much easier to come straight on and couple before releasing the doors.

 

[Gems]

Technically nothing wrong with the procedure, it isn't unsafe, but perhaps unwise.

I would have allowed people off first, then closed the doors for the coupling. Yes you still might have people wandering around after you have asked them to remain seated, but it is safer than having a full train wanting to get off. Some people might have had connections to make.

 

[Silver Cobra]

At King's Cross generally they would open the doors for a short while, then make an announcement along the lines of "the doors will be closed briefly whilst two trains are coupled together, anyone on board the train please take a seat for a few moments, the doors will be opened again immediately afterwards". However occasionally if the incoming service was late then the doors wouldn't be opened first. Never really caused a problem one way or the other, although it's preferable to be done the first way simple because it avoids delaying people.

The same happens at Cambridge as well, at least with the GN services from Kings Lynn. Whenever I've travelled from Kings Lynn back towards Hitchin, which for most of the day requires a change at Cambridge, I've always been able to alight from the train before it is coupled up to the unit already at the station to form the non-stop service to Kings Cross.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I don’t often travel on trains that join but whenever they do I’ve always found if you’re the second train arriving in a platform, they join then release doors. If you’re the first train to arrive, they release doors, then close doors when second train coming, then release doors. I can’t see it’s unsafe either way, but the above way seems a lot less faff than opening doors, passengers off, closing doors, joining up.
In some cases trains also need to be clear of track circuits, signals, etc. Particularly if an out-of-course join up, and leaving a gap between trains May make it in the wrong position.

 

[221129]

Technically nothing wrong with the procedure, it isn't unsafe, but perhaps unwise.

I would have allowed people off first, then closed the doors for the coupling. Yes you still might have people wandering around after you have asked them to remain seated, but it is safer than having a full train wanting to get off. Some people might have had connections to make.

So you'd do that even if it went against company and local instructions?

 

[Gems]

So you'd do that even if it went against company and local instructions?

There is no company or local instruction to do this, not with who I work with anyway. That is because it is generally regarded as not in the best interest of the passengers. Why on earth as a guard would I want the risk of someone elderly falling over and hurting themselves when a unit is being coupled up? That just brings paperwork and pain.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

At Vt we used to let passengers alight before coupling up.
Feedback from staff was that once passengers alighted there would be a steady stream of passengers trying to board.
This leads to platform staff and the guard shouting at passengers not to board a train with open doors a few minutes before departure, on many occasions passengers were diving through half closed doors or kicking of that the train was being despatched early.
Vt then looked at the risks and now we couple before release.

In my opinion this has made the procedure much safer and I’ve never had anyone injured during this, but we were told to announce passenger to hold on to the handrail provided or stay seated as there may be a sharp jolt ?

 

[Gems]

At Vt we used to let passengers alight before coupling up.
Feedback from staff was that once passengers alighted there would be a steady stream of passengers trying to board.
This leads to platform staff and the guard shouting at passengers not to board a train with open doors a few minutes before departure, on many occasions passengers were diving through half closed doors or kicking of that the train was being despatched early.
Vt then looked at the risks and now we couple before release.

In my opinion this has made the procedure much safer and I’ve never had anyone injured during this, but we were told to announce passenger to hold on to the handrail provided or stay seated as there may be a sharp jolt ?

So I think what we are all sort of agreeing on is that if we can keep passengers from trying to board whilst it takes place, it is safer to let them off first. So basically the train length dictates, along with the time of day, number of passengers etc.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

There is probably no one method fits all soloution but that what the railway expects.
If you don’t standardise and make it procedural there is a risk mistakes will happen.
I would say it’s easier to couple up with passengers on, the people on the platform can see the doors haven’t opened so at worst will just press the buttons and huff and puff.
But I’m dealing with 10 coaches at busy stations where passengers can’t hear you because of the noise ?
I haven’t got strong opinions either way I think dependent on location and time as you said

 

[Gems]

There is probably no one method fits all soloution but that what the railway expects.
If you don’t standardise and make it procedural there is a risk mistakes will happen.
I would say it’s easier to couple up with passengers on, the people on the platform can see the doors haven’t opened so at worst will just press the buttons and huff and puff.
But I’m dealing with 10 coaches at busy stations where passengers can’t hear you because of the noise ?
I haven’t got strong opinions either way I think dependent on location and time as you said

I quite agree. Every situation can demand a different action.

 

[duffield]

I would think the problem is not so much that coupling with passengers on and standing is actually unsafe - it's that the announcement that they should 'remain seated' during the coupling process (when this is not possible) might lead the standing passengers to *think* it is unsafe for them.

 

[Gems]

I would think the problem is not so much that coupling with passengers on and standing is actually unsafe - it's that the announcement that they should 'remain seated' during the coupling process (when this is not possible) might lead the standing passengers to *think* it is unsafe for them.

You know something. You have made me think here. Let's ask those of you who are passengers how you view this. Which of the methods would irritate, annoy, or suit you best? Considering every passenger is different, some are attentive and other away with the fairies, I'm curious.
But before we do, let me just point out a operating procedure with Northern. It is procedure for the driver to draw forward, then get out to check the coupling height before coupling. So this means opening a door, you know what will happen then. Sometimes it is easier to couple from the empty unit for this reason. Like we have said, nothing is uniform in the world of the railway.

 

[Westcoast-ting]

You know something. You have made me think here. Let's ask those of you who are passengers how you view this. Which of the methods would irritate, annoy, or suit you best? Considering every passenger is different, some are attentive and other away with the fairies, I'm curious.

Reading through other posts on here I’ve noticed quite a few comments where passengers and staff have conflicting opinions and neither are shy making their point, so without being an instigator of more negativity I’ll throw in my biased opinion -

A passenger only cares about their journey, they don’t care about what the train did before they boarded and they don’t care what it does after.

Railstaff / the industry have to try and balance the needs of all the users, sometimes at the detriment of the minority.

 

[muz379]

If it was not safe to couple units with passengers on board then it would not be done countless times up and down the network . There are plenty of timetables couplings of units in service .

And then there are the countless times a service will be strengthened with passengers already on board one portion . At least at my TOC there is no requirement to empty the train out before any coupling .

The 185s have CCTV so the guard should have seen his train had standing passengers and considered the safer option to let them off first!
If you have different rules for whenever it suits,then expect accidents!

The guards dont have access to any live feeds from the CCTV as far as I know .