Court Summons - Not being able to produce a valid ticket

[parnelli1983]

Hi All,

Hope someone can be of some help. I will try and keep as short and factual as possible. The saga all started May 2011 - I had booked a train online (via national rail) so had my booking details on my phone to collect my tickets at the station - route was Bristol TM to Sheffield (Return). That day I had a taxi booked to take me to the station, but unfortunately they were late and ultimately I had 5mins to catch the train once getting to Bristol TM - on arrival the self-service ticket machines had a q of around 15 people - so decided to get on the train and produce my booking confirmation and get my ticket on arrival at sheffield.

The conductor came around checking tickets - showed him confirmation and he said its fine and to pick ticket up at sheffield...He mentioned they would be changing conductors at Birmingham and this is where the problems came. The conductor had a pretty poor attitude and explained the circumstances and stating the previous conductor agreed it was ok of which he said 'The previous conductor did not do his job correctly' He then asked for full fare of which I didn't have the cash to cover this and couldn't understand why he would not accept my booking confirmation - Am I right in saying that under by law(iii) the Operator or an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket would stand up?

The conductor took my details and hadn't heard anything until a letter that was sent on the 14 October - I've pleaded not guilty and its just playing on my mind as it was purely innocent on my part and I feel this large corporate company is taking advantage....

In my statement I've put all this in my statement...Funny thing was the conductor from Birmingham stated I presented an old ticket which is untrue!

Any reassurance would be greatly appreciated - I sent the plea today and had to send special delivery as moved address and went to the old address and luckily picked it up as the case was due to sit on the 20th October.

Thanks,

Darren

 

[scotsman]

How did you get through the barriers at Bristol with only a confirmation?

 

[First class]

What offence are you summonsed for?

Byelaw or Regulation of Railway Act?

You are automatically guilty of a Byelaw Offence 18(1) if you do not hold a valid ticket for the train you are on. It depends who the burden of proof is on to prove an "authorised person" gave you incorrect information. I imagine the NRCoC put the burden on you. I have a feeling you've missed (several) things out.

Do you not think it would have been a good idea to let us know BEFORE you sent it away??

What would you like us to advise? Personally I think that you will be found guilty unless you can categorically prove someone else gave you permission. I would approach the court and ask for an adjournment in order to gather your defence and explain you have moved house. As part of preparation for your new hearing, if granted, you should get a Court Order for the TOC to identify the member of staff working the train (who gave you permission) and have him summonsed as a defence witness to testify.

If found guilty you're looking at around £400 fine, £150 costs, £15 surcharge and cost of ticket, so about £600. A record will be created but won't typically show on non-enhanced checks.

You will be found GUILTY of both offences if:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person.

Unless you can show (and prove) one of the following:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket

“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator

 

[yorkie]

...I had booked a train online (via national rail)...

The National Rail website does not sell tickets, it will re-direct you to another site. Not that this matters really.

He then asked for full fare of which I didn't have the cash to cover this and couldn't understand why he would not accept my booking confirmation

That's the correct procedure, you could then apply for a refund later. What exactly was said next? I would have expected an Unpaid Fare Notice to be issued. Or did you refuse it? Were you handed anything?

The conductor took my details and hadn't heard anything until a letter that was sent on the 14 October - I've pleaded not guilty and its just playing on my mind as it was purely innocent on my part and I feel this large corporate company is taking advantage....

What exactly did the letter say? We could have advised you on how to respond, but obviously it's too late for that now.

Have you been asked to enter a plea at this stage?
Has a witness statement been taken?
Was a specific offence mentioned, and which law exactly are you accused of breaking?

There is insufficient information for us to assist you at this stage, and without full details of the letter that was sent to you I do not think we can help. It does seem very odd that you were asked to pay and then you are being threatened with prosecution.

 

[bb21]

What offence are you summonsed for?

Byelaw or Regulation of Railway Act?

You are automatically guilty of a Byelaw Offence 18(1) if you do not hold a valid ticket for the train you are on. It depends who the burden of proof is on to prove an "authorised person" gave you incorrect information. I imagine the NRCoC put the burden on you. I have a feeling you've missed (several) things out.

Do you not think it would have been a good idea to let us know BEFORE you sent it away??

What would you like us to advise?

You will be found GUILTY of both offences:



Unless you can show (and prove) one of the following:

The story is incomplete and there is a number of questions that need to be answered before we can even advise. I'm not sure how you jumped to the conclusion that the OP is being prosecuted straight away. (I know the OP mentioned it, but it is clear that something doesn't add up so we shouldn't take it for granted.)

To the OP:

(1) Did the second guard caution you on the spot?
(2) Has the letter you received mentioned the legislation you're being prosecuted under? It will either be the Byelaw or the Regulation of Railways Act.

 

[First class]

The story is incomplete and there is a number of questions that need to be answered before we can even advise. I'm not sure how you jumped to the conclusion that the OP is being prosecuted straight away. (I know the OP mentioned it, but it is clear that something doesn't add up so we shouldn't take it for granted.)
.

He has been summonsed, so you can conclude he is being prosecuted Sent his plea by post, (I assume Not Guilty).

In court 20 October.

He also refers to the Byelaws, so I imagine it is 18(1) and 18(2) with a defence of (3- Authorised Person).

 

[bb21]

Yes but his mention of the Byelaw has nothing to do with what the TOC said. That was from his own research so doesn't give us any clue as to what he is being prosecuted under.

 

[First class]

Very unlikely, to be RoRA:

5 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare.

(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding

Basically says: Provide a ticket showing fare paid, or pay fare from where started.

He has paid his fare from where started (online).

So Not Guilty of any S.5 offence IMO.
Also note the title of S.5 "Penalty for avoiding payment of fare". No avoidment was made, just failed to comply with the Byelaw.

 

[parnelli1983]

Hi,

The Barriers in Bristol were open, so was able to walk through without a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

I believe the burden of proof lies on you, unfortunately, to prove that this guard did let you travel without a valid ticket.

However, we do have a couple of legal experts on the forum who are much better placed to offer advice. I advise you to stick around until they materialise.....

 

[parnelli1983]

Hi First Class,

I had to send back the plea to the Justice Clerk otherwise I would have missed the boat. The Summons - stated I did not show a valid ticket and mentioned there were self-service machines working on the day. Can I just clarify - the first conductor on the train allowed me to travel with the booking confirmation - also the booking confirmation although not a valid ticket provides evidence that I paid for a ticket for the journey and the minute I arrived in Sheffield I obtained these tickets.

I've written back to the court with a plea of not guilty as you stated in you're post; (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket - the proof is that my details were not taken during this first ticket check - it was the 2nd conductor that took my details.

In hindsight I should have never got on the train without the ticket, but didn't think this would happen as I've not attempted to avoid trainfare as it was fully paid for?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi Alter Ego,

I've just replied to First Class - Although burden remains on me, doesn't this contradict bylaw 18 (2) iii as I was authorised by the 1st conductor - checks could be made by the train company to check routine check of tickets were carried out?

 

[AlterEgo]

I've written back to the court with a plea of not guilty as you stated in you're post; (iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a
valid ticket - the proof is that my details were not taken during this first ticket check - it was the 2nd conductor that took my details.

That is not proof I'm afraid and you may have trouble convincing a Court of this. There's no proof you even had your ticket checked at all on the train.

In hindsight I should have never got on the train without the ticket, but didn't think this would happen as I've not attempted to avoid trainfare as it was fully paid for?

Nobody is accusing you of attempting to avoid payment, it would seem.

You are accused of failing to show on demand a valid ticket for your journey - which is a strict liability matter. No intent needs to be proven (much like speeding).

Unfortunately, while I believe you probably had no ill intent, I think you've been rather naive in how you've dealt with this. Have you sought any legal advice prior to coming on this forum?

 

[parnelli1983]

Thank you all for the info, I know the story that I've provided sounds very silly on my part - I only picked the summons up on Friday and sent it back yesterday as a plea of not guilty.

The conductor did not provide any paper, he just took my address details, name - although his statement was not accurate as he put in his statement Mr XXX provided an old (invalid) ticket. He mentions he offered me a ticket for £79 and I refused to pay - the fee was a lot more than this and I did not have the funds in my account. On a bit of paper that I was sent it mentions booking confirmation on phone which contradicts conductors statement of the invalid old ticket I produced.

I think an Act was mentioned, but the prosecution is for the invalid ticket - can you confirm if my plea for not guilty is acceptable - what should I do now, wait for a response of speak to the provider directly? What would be the next steps?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Alter Ego,

I've not seeked any legal aid - the fact is though is that I've paid the fare before travel...Surely section 5.3 (a) mens rea will be used in this case - i.e. I had no guilty mind?

 

[AlterEgo]

Wiki:

In criminal law, strict liability is liability for which mens rea (Latin for "guilty mind") does not have to be proven in relation to one or more elements comprising the actus reus (Latin for "guilty act") although intention, recklessness or knowledge may be required in relation to other elements of the offence.

You have been accused of a strict liability offence.

You don't need to intend to speed in your car either. The Court in this case simply needs to be satisfied that you had no valid ticket when asked.

 

[parnelli1983]

Hi Alter Ego,

What do you recommend I do? If Guilty would this be a 'criminal conviction'? And surely the train company would have a log of tickets checked on the first part of the journey which will provide proof my 'invalid ticket' was given permission to use by an authorised person - do you not agree its quite a weak case they have and would you not expect them to drop the case after my plea of not guilty? If I have to attend court this is also going to cause me problems as its in Sheffield and I live in Bristol?

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately the Railways can trick you, the inspectors can lie about what you've said, and you don't have to have any ill-intent, and yet they can still find you guilty! No intent needs to be proven - it's madness and we really should campaign to get this law repealed. But that doesn't help you. Sorry!

However, bear in mind it's not recordable and you will not get a criminal record. I'm sure you won't have to attend court.

Whether it's worth defending or not on the technicality I am unsure but I would advise you wait for DaveNewcastle to express his view.

If you do contest it, I wouldn't try to represent yourself, and the cost of defending it may well exceed the cost of any fines. If this was going to result in a criminal record, I'd be more inclined to contest it.

 

[N Levers]

Im sorry but a confirmation letter is NOT a ticket and for good reason. A late cab is not a valid excuse for not having a ticket. If it was an advance fare you should leave more time to get to the station, if it was a day or open you should have waited for the next train.

 

[parnelli1983]

Thanks Yorkie, although its ultimately my fault I feel somewhat let down here by the legal system. Can I attempt to settle out of court if my plea is turned down as I asked the lady from Transport Investigations If I would have to attend court if plea/evidence was not accepted and she said yes...N Levers I wasn't providing an excuse just setting the scene with the cab story. My main issue is that I shouldn't be convicted as the 'invalid ticket' was accepted by an authorised person.

 

[yorkie]

If you wish to settle out of court, make that offer now. We can proof read the letter if you wish (feel free to PM me)

 

[N Levers]

I wasn't trying to alocate blame I was stating how the TOC will see it.

 

[parnelli1983]

Yorkie, If I've already sent plea - which I sent via special delivery and will arrive Monday at 1pm - should I ring them and suggest the out of court settlement? They were suggesting the following costs (£79 plus £105) including VAT - if I was to settle, what would you suggest I offer and can I still do this now?

 

[All Line Rover]

I'm not at all happy with the way in which CrossCountry have treated the OP. They have some excellent Train Managers in my experience, but also some very bad ones.

First of all, why would the OP consider collecting the tickets at BRI when he would miss his train? His ticket would be worthless! (Even though Passenger Focus are trying to change this ridiculous arrangement - it's probably one of the only good things they are doing). Why not just ask the TM if you could travel and collect the tickets at Sheffield before boarding the train? That's what I would have done, and that's what (I think) the OP did.

You have been accused of a strict liability offence.

You don't need to intend to speed in your car either. The Court in this case simply needs to be satisfied that you had no valid ticket when asked.

As has already been mentioned, Railway Byelaws state that someone may travel without a valid ticket providing they have been given permission to do so by an "authorised person."

If the Train Manager (someone in authority) gave the OP permission to travel to Sheffield without a ticket, the OP cannot be prosecuted for travelling without a valid ticket. Just because the Train Manager changed at Birmingham does not mean that the permission of the original Train Manager is wiped out. It still applies.

I appreciate that the onus is on the OP to prove that the Train Manager did give them authority to travel. (Even though I feel that this is a bit ridiculous. What is the OP expected to do? Film it? :roll Even so, what is stopping CrossCountry from contacting the Train Manager who gave the OP permission to travel? If they know who was on the Birmingham to Sheffield portion of the train, they must know who was on the Bristol to Birmingham portion, surely?

The OP still made a few mistakes perhaps. Why didn't you make sure that the original Train Manager informed the new one at Birmingham that you had permission to travel? (It seems a little odd that he/she didn't do so anyway.) If this was not possible, did you seek out the new Train Manager immediately to explain the circumstances, or did you wait for him to come along when checking tickets? If you did the latter, that would have put you in a bad light.

To the OP: I'm no legal expert, and I'm not offering you any advice. I recommend that you follow the advice of everyone else on here, such as Yorkie. I just feel that you have been treated very unfairly by CrossCountry.

 

[parnelli1983]

Hi ALR,

The first conductor mentioned to me he would be changing with the Birmingham conductor when checking my booking confirmation, I should have asked him to passed this on, but he said to me to explain and it will be fine. The 1st conductor got off at Birmingham so there was no chance of getting confirmation from him - I did ask the conductor that got on from Birmingham and he just replied 'He isn't doing his job and he has given you the incorrect information, he was very rude and seemed as if he was having an awful day.

If I wish to settle out of court, who would I contact - Cross Country I'm guessing is Network Rail so would I contact them?

Cheers

 

[Darandio]

If I wish to settle out of court, who would I contact - Cross Country I'm guessing is Network Rail so would I contact them?

Cheers

No, CrossCountry are the TOC on which you travelled. Network Rail are a seperate entity that own the stations and maintain infrastructure, two completely different things. You would need to contact CrossCountry I presume, is that where the letter came from?

 

[parnelli1983]

The letter came from the magistrates court - which had contact details for Transport Investigations limited??

 

[scotsman]

The letter came from the magistrates court - which had contact details for Transport Investigations limited??

Which is the company the TOC has contracted (or possibly owns) to deal with prosecutions. You should contact them ASAP, but not before you've been told what to say/do from the forum - they've managed to get a few people off prosecutions before now.

 

[parnelli1983]

Thanks Scotsman. As mentioned previously I've stupidly sent my 'not guilty plea' already which arrives tomorrow with my notes and I have enthusised on the first conductor authorising the ticket.

So if advised by the experts on here to call to settle before it goes to court I should contact the number provided for Transport Investigations?

 

[jon0844]

These stories/threads make me really angry. If it is true that someone DID say it was okay and give authority, and the next person ignored it, why should the OP have to deal with the problem? (If it isn't true, then the whole thread is pointless - so we must assume it's fact or not even bother to talk about it).

The other guard could have said: 'He isn't doing his job and he has given you the incorrect information" by all means, but not penalised the passenger for the mistake of a colleague! How crazy to think that the guard effectively accepted that the first guard may have said it, rather than having said: "There's no way he would have said that, so I think you're lying".

So, to then retract that authority and potentially land the OP in court is outrageous. Even if the second guard was 100% correct, he's been totally wrong in not showing discretion or attempting to find out from the guard somehow. If it does go to court, it's sad to think that a magistrate may be compelled to find the defendant guilty of not having the physical ticket to produce, yet had paid to travel on that ticket and picked up the ticket(s) at the destination. Two rather conflicting issues.

The OP could have paid for a full price ticket and then hoped that someone could verify things after, resulting in a refund, but what guarantee would there be that this would happen? If the original guard had been wrong, he'd likely cover his backside by denying he gave that authority. In other words, they'd all close ranks on the poor passenger.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Perhaps the OP could have taped the conversation, or written a note and got him to sign it with his full name, or got sworn statements from other passengers? Perhaps he could have predicted the delay at the start, or the long queue at the TVM? (If the queue was of a suitable length, I believe you are allowed to pay at the destination - so why wouldn't that include collecting tickets later on?)

RPIs often claim to say they have/don't have discretion when it suits them. In other words, they often hit easy targets and say they have to do their job, while at other times they can let someone off - be asked why - and say 'we're allowed to show discretion'. I fail to see why someone who had explained everything, asked a guard, been given authority and had paid for a ticket in advance (with details to prove the fact) is then stung for the offence of not producing a valid ticket there and then. That's just cruel, even if it IS valid! Perhaps the TOC can prosecute, but why would they?

These are the stories that end up in the press and give the whole industry a bad name, and the powers given to rail staff are surely there to make their lives easier (i.e. a nice straight and simple offence that requires no proof of intent) but not to be abused.

Thank God we've got some good ones on this forum. I have faith that all of these would have shown discretion, or at worst asked for the full fare and then made the effort to verify the facts with the other member of staff and changing to 'no further action' accordingly.

 

[yorkie]

So if advised by the experts on here to call to settle before it goes to court I should contact the number provided for Transport Investigations?

Ultimately only you can decide that, but I'd see what DaveNewcastle advises first.

The important thing to remember though is that, if it's a first offence, you can probably settle out of court and if they've told you their costs then that is a sign that they may be prepared to settle.

If you were to fight the case, success is not guaranteed, and it could be costly. Our research indicates that there appears to be a shortage of knowledgeable (in railway ticketing matters), affordable solicitors, and the costs of defending a case such as this may be huge.

If you were being prosecuted for a recordable offence, that would result in a criminal record that would show up for life on a CRB check and hinder your job opportunities, then it would be a case worth fighting (assuming an out of court settlement wasn't offered/accepted) but I am not sure it's worth spending huge sums of money on this particular case.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this case fought, and a victory for you, and that would be a fantastic message to send to the TOCs (assuming of course what you say is true), but being realistic I do not think this would be achievable unless you spent a large sum on solicitors fees, and even then I am unsure of the chances of success.

 

[33011]

Hi ALR,

The first conductor mentioned to me he would be changing with the Birmingham conductor when checking my booking confirmation, I should have asked him to passed this on, but he said to me to explain and it will be fine. The 1st conductor got off at Birmingham so there was no chance of getting confirmation from him - I did ask the conductor that got on from Birmingham and he just replied 'He isn't doing his job and he has given you the incorrect information, he was very rude and seemed as if he was having an awful day.

If I wish to settle out of court, who would I contact - Cross Country I'm guessing is Network Rail so would I contact them?

Cheers

A bit late now but perhaps it may have been a good idea to have gone to see the new guard yourself at Birmingham.Most guards/Train managers are more sympathetic if you see them before you set off but are a lot stricter if they go through checking tickets then find out.If changeing crew never assume they will tell the new crew as the may get asked questions and forget.If you know when the crews are changing go and wait with the Guard just before they change this may help.Don't forget you may have to go through barriers at the end of your journey and the starff there would have no idea what the guard said and you could be in the same boat again if you see what i mean.