Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That doesn't mean that things don't go wrong, it just means that the building SHOULD be sound. Of course that still leaves a lot of margin of error, you don't need to look hard for cases of building schemes where they have building control sing off but still have a long list of snagging.

I think we have all enjoyed our comparative debate to others than the Class 230 units and I am most impressed by the musical renditions of the Building Control Male Voice Choir that you state above (emboldened by me) but I now feel that we should return to the matter of the thread and I will ask two questions:-

• When is the next official testing actually scheduled to take place?
  
• Is another crash test at a higher speed with a more solid blocking object planned?
  

 

[furnessvale]

I think we have all enjoyed our comparative debate to others than the Class 230 units and I am most impressed by the musical renditions of the Building Control Male Voice Choir that you state above (emboldened by me) but I now feel that we should return to the matter of the thread and I will ask two questions:-

• When is the next official testing actually scheduled to take place?
  
• Is another crash test at a higher speed with a more solid blocking object planned?
  

Presumably the body/chassis has already passed whatever tests were required for LT.

Are there any grandfather rights existing for their continued use?

 

[Haydn1971]

Is another crash test at a higher speed with a more solid blocking object planned?

I refer the honourable gentleman upthread - my reading of the testing standard is that as long as the units don't use level crossings on the TEN then they don't have to pass the 110kph test - see post 2242

 

[Domh245]

1) Testing of the train and it's systems is presumably ongoing, it's just that Mr Shooter doesn't feel the need to invite press and important figures to every test run.

2) No. As mentioned, 1 crash test is enough for it to be certified, and I don't think Mr Shooter will want to go and write off a second bodyshell!

 

[Nym]

Why not? He's bought an even number of DM and UDM cars hasn't he?

Since it was 7056 that was crashed... Is only a single ender that's lost even if the whole set went in...

 

[Chris125]

Why not? He's bought an even number of DM and UDM cars hasn't he?

I believe they are UNDMs and I'm not aware that Vivarail have purchased any, just DMs and trailers - I can't imagine they'd want to write off any more than necessary, as spare vehicles could become useful.

 

[Nym]

I believe they are UNDMs and I'm not aware that Vivarail have purchased any, just DMs and trailers - I can't imagine they'd want to write off any more than necessary, as spare vehicles could become useful.

Believe what are UNDMs?

He has bought UDMs, UDMs are not UNDMs.

Driving Motor (7000-7129)
Uncoupling Driving Motor (7500-7539)
Uncoupling Non Driving Motor (8000-8129)
Trailer (17000-17129)
and
Special Trailer (17500, 17502, ... , 17536, 17538)

All the above cars make up a D Stock Unit in some combination. Units are either
'A' DM - 'A' T - 'D' UNDM
'A' UNDM - 'D' T - 'D' DM
or
'A' UDM - ST - 'D' UDM

So you can form a train up as...

'A' DM - 'A' T - 'D' UNDM - 'A' UNDM - 'D' T - 'D' DM
'A' DM - 'A' T - 'D' UNDM - 'A' UDM - ST - 'D' UDM
'A' UDM - ST - 'D' UDM - 'A' UNDM - 'D' T - 'D' DM
or very rarely
'A' UDM - ST - 'D' UDM - 'A' UDM - ST - 'D' UDM

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Testing of the train and it's systems is presumably ongoing, it's just that Mr Shooter doesn't feel the need to invite press and important figures to every test run.

Working on the principle that all publicity is good publicity and that he wants to keep the profile of the project as high as possible, I am surprised that you feel that with such a wonderful product that he has actually developed a certain reticence in this respect. It was not all that long ago that he was encouraging sales to be made as quickly as possible before the available stock for sale had all been sold out.

 

[Murph]

Working on the principle that all publicity is good publicity and that he wants to keep the profile of the project as high as possible, I am surprised that you feel that with such a wonderful product that he has actually developed a certain reticence in this respect. It was not all that long ago that he was encouraging sales to be made as quickly as possible before the available stock for sale had all been sold out.

While it's true that (almost) all publicity is good publicity, it's prudent not to overdo the press and VIP sessions on less remarkable/exciting stuff. If they pushed every tiny little bit of progress out to the press and VIPs, there's a very real risk that something significant/important would get ignored later due to people getting bored with hearing about the latest improvements to the light switches or small software tweaks.

The sensible strategy is to push the major stuff out to the press, and try to manage it such that there's major stuff to report at a reasonable frequency while avoiding over-saturation. It's also reasonable to assume that the sales people are likely still talking to potential customers on a regular basis, but without itemising every conversation for public consumption.

 

[kieron]

I refer the honourable gentleman upthread - my reading of the testing standard is that as long as the units don't use level crossings on the TEN then they don't have to pass the 110kph test - see post 2242

Another way of thinking of that statement is that, if they don't pass the 110kph test the units can't use level crossings on the TEN, crossings such as this one.

I find it quite hard to see how the regulator can explain a decision to use one standard for trains used on some lines and a lower standard for those used elsewhere.

 

[Haydn1971]

I find it quite hard to see how the regulator can explain a decision to use one standard for trains used on some lines and a lower standard for those used elsewhere.

It comes back to risk assessment, the primary means of protection is avoidance via operational controls - the crash tests are the last line of defence. Whilst we have the bold statement from Government about not bringing the 230's to the north, I suspect it's rather through regulation that they can't rather than by the kindness of their hearts.

Edit - The TEN network includes ECML, WCML, TransPennine and the CrossCountry route between Birmingham and Doncaster - doesn't leave much for the 230's to work on given they can't pass the 110kph test. Essentially the EU has prevented their use in the North ! Genius !

 

[Chris125]

He has bought UDMs, UDMs are not UNDMs.

Fair enough, I thought you'd written equal rather than an even number of DMs and UDMs and presumed you were referring to UNDMs.

 

[northwichcat]

Earlier in the thread someone commented on the ride quality of the D78s being better than 150s. I travelled on both the other day and don`t agree. The D78s are like a cross between a Pacer and a 507/508. If they weren`t electric they`d be just like Pacers.

The D78 squeal in to Putney Bridge is comparable to the Pacer squeal in to Lincoln. The new District Line trains don`t squeal at all on that section. The new trains sound similar to Metrolink`s trams but have superior ride quality and more comfortable seating.

 

[asylumxl]

The D78s are like a cross between a Pacer and a 507/508. If they weren't electric they'd be just like Pacers.

Apart from the D78 are bogied stock, while the Pacers are not...

The D78 squeal in to Putney Bridge is comparable to the Pacer squeal in to Lincoln.

Is the curve radius comparable on both, as I don't know much about either? London Underground lines usually have a smaller minimum curve radius than National Rail lines. They also tend not to use as much cant.

The new District Line trains don't squeal at all on that section. The new trains sound similar to Metrolink's trams but have superior ride quality and more comfortable seating.

Can we really compare trains built in 2015 to trains built in 1978?

 

[Nym]

Can we really compare trains built in 2015 to trains built in 1978?

S Stock also has a shorter distance between bogie centres than D stock does, and the bogie frame is more flexible.

 

[Domh245]

Don't forget that LU track may well be maintained to a different level compared to tracks that have pacers and 150s running over them (eg because LU trains are more frequent, so tracks wear quicker). The only way in which we can really draw comparisons about ride are to either send a 150 and pacer down to Richmond or Wimbledon and run them around on those branches, or to wait for the first public trips on a 230 and compare it to the ride of the other trains operating on that track on that day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ex-LU units run on the Island Line. To what standard is the track on that short line maintained?

 

[asylumxl]

Ex-LU units run on the Island Line. To what standard is the track on that short line maintained?

Certainly not to the standard of mainlines, nor in my opinion to the standard of most branches on the mainland.

Also, are we going to start comparing 1938 stock to 1978 too?

 

[Domh245]

I suppose the point I was trying to make (badly!) was that there are too many variables in terms of ride quality, including driving style, railhead conditions, track quality, unit abnormalities, etc, that the only real way of objectively comparing the differences is to go in both over the same track, at more or less the same time, with the same ambient conditions. And then do it a few extra times with different units to reduce anomalies!

 

[Nym]

Certainly not to the standard of mainlines, nor in my opinion to the standard of most branches on the mainland.

Also, are we going to start comparing 1938 stock to 1978 too?

So comparing early plate frame bogies on chevrons to flexible box frame bogies on chevron primaries and rubber blob secondaries from the early 2000s?

 

[Rick1984]

The ride on the IOW is certainly 'lively', thank goodness for the sprung seats.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The ride on the IOW is certainly 'lively', thank goodness for the sprung seats.

That being the case, I wonder what a hypothetical ride in one of "Newton Heath's Finest" would be like on the Island Line...

 

[D365]

That being the case, I wonder what a hypothetical ride in one of "Newton Heath's Finest" would be like on the Island Line...

If you're asking for a 'Skipper', you're going about it the right way...

 

[anthony263]

Don't forget that LU track may well be maintained to a different level compared to tracks that have pacers and 150s running over them (eg because LU trains are more frequent, so tracks wear quicker). The only way in which we can really draw comparisons about ride are to either send a 150 and pacer down to Richmond or Wimbledon and run them around on those branches, or to wait for the first public trips on a 230 and compare it to the ride of the other trains operating on that track on that day.

I am sure I have read somewhere about Silverlink/London Overground using a class 150 to cover a trip on the Richmond branch

 

[northwichcat]

Apart from the D78 are bogied stock, while the Pacers are not...

Bouncing isn't the only difference/disadvantage of Pacers over proper trains.

Is the curve radius comparable on both, as I don't know much about either? London Underground lines usually have a smaller minimum curve radius than National Rail lines. They also tend not to use as much cant.

I don't know how the curves compare but the squealing the D78s make on that curve is louder than I've ever heard a 150 make on even the sharpest curves and is definitely comparable to sounds I've heard Pacers make on curve.

If the curve approaching Putney Bridge isn't actually that sharp in comparison to NR curves then it doesn't bode well for using D-Trains on branch lines.

Can we really compare trains built in 2015 to trains built in 1978?

As District Line passengers are getting S Stock replacing D78s I'm sure the regular passengers will make comparisons between the two.

Your dates are a bit misleading. The D78s entered service between 1980 and 1983 while the S Stock first started being used on the District Line in 2013.

 

[gtr driver]

Bouncing isn't the only difference/disadvantage of Pacers over proper trains.



I don't know how the curves compare but the squealing the D78s make on that curve is louder than I've ever heard a 150 make on even the sharpest curves and is definitely comparable to sounds I've heard Pacers make on curve.

If the curve approaching Putney Bridge isn't actually that sharp in comparison to NR curves then it doesn't bode well for using D-Trains on branch lines.



As District Line passengers are getting S Stock replacing D78s I'm sure the regular passengers will make comparisons between the two.

Your dates are a bit misleading. The D78s entered service between 1980 and 1983 while the S Stock first started being used on the District Line in 2013.

Tube users actually thought the refurbished D stock was new when it entered service. Personally I'll reserve judgement until I get a chance to ride on them elsewhere, if indeed I ever do, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss any idea that gets more stock on to the national network. I'd be happy to see them on SE tracks if it meant no more faces in armpits even on a Sunday on my local line. Such a phenomena has led to me just not using the train at the weekend and I have no reason to think it's any different elsewhere in the UK.

 

[NSEFAN]

Tube users actually thought the refurbished D stock was new when it entered service.

"I can't believe they're still building new trains with manual doors!" is a comment sometimes heard about Mk3 carriages on the ECML. If you keep a train looking modern you can fool most passengers into believing that it is.

 

[northwichcat]

"I can't believe they're still building new trains with manual doors!" is a comment sometimes heard about Mk3 carriages on the ECML. If you keep a train looking modern you can fool most passengers into believing that it is.

That's easier to achieve if:
1. Refreshed/refurbished trains get used on new routes and replace older stock. For instance, the refreshed 170/3s which appeared on TPE routes replaced tatty 158s.
2. The TOC doesn't make a big fuss about their multi-million pound refurbishment of rolling stock like EMT did.
3. Passengers aren't regular travellers, so they don't recognise the old windows, the old doors etc.

 

[Bantamzen]

That's easier to achieve if:
1. Refreshed/refurbished trains get used on new routes and replace older stock. For instance, the refreshed 170/3s which appeared on TPE routes replaced tatty 158s.
2. The TOC doesn't make a big fuss about their multi-million pound refurbishment of rolling stock like EMT did.
3. Passengers aren't regular travellers, so they don't recognise the old windows, the old doors etc.

And..

4. Local press up and down the country haven't already made weary commuters aware that ex-tube might end up on their lines...

 

[furnessvale]

And..

4. Local press up and down the country haven't already made weary commuters aware that ex-tube might end up on their lines...

Be fair, the press in the UK only exists to rubbish anything anyone tries to do.

I vividly remember, quite some years ago, a pundit on a national newspaper publicly pleading with the Chinese NOT to purchase 10000 new international coaches from BR Engineering!

The reason. In the UK we have slow, late trains and serve curly sandwiches!

In France or Germany the whole nation would be behind the export drive.