Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[jopsuk]

230s have turned into this forum's current top "solution looking for a problem to solve", displacing redundant Eurostars and Class 442.

 

[Julia]

...(there are more parts to go wrong on a DMU than an EMU with the same facilities)...

Engine vibration causes wear and tear on fittings, windows etc. etc. as well - compare a 5-year-old EMU against a DMU and a bus of the same age for rattles and electrical problems as important bits work themselves loose. Also vibration plus noise causes a more unpleasant environment for passengers and staff.

 

[D365]

230s have turned into this forum's current top "solution looking for a problem to solve", displacing redundant Eurostars and Class 442.

At least in this case we have a genuine and ready-to-run 'go anywhere' product to sell

 

[A0]

Surely they'd be fine as long as there's a Halfords nearby... :roll:

I assume this is in response to the use of a Ford diesel engine which happens to be used in their commercial vehicles.

Clearly you've forgotten that a number of DMUs have used commercial vehicle diesel engines - including the Leyland TL11 and Leyland / AEC units.

Most of which produced far less power than the Ford unit proposed does - and those old Leylands / AECs were driving mechanical transmission - which is less efficient than the driving electric motors the Ford unit is doing in this installation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At least in this case we have a genuine and ready-to-run 'go anywhere' product to sell

All one of them...

 

[Dent]

Getting back to the point of the thread, send a few D78s off to the Isle of Wight where they will fit in nicely and electrification really isn't needed.

The Isle of Wight line already is electrified. It also contains a tunnel that is too tight to allow anything other than tube stock.

 

[D365]

All one of them...

And an ugly duckling at that!

 

[northwichcat]

And an ugly duckling at that!

Will it grow in to a beautiful swan then?

 

[coppercapped]

A DMU coach costs about £10,000 more per year than an EMU coach. There are going to be 58 EMU units on the GWML (excluding the 80x's) with 4 coaches (so 232 coaches or £2,230,000 savings per year).

Therefore within 13 years those cost savings pays for your 3 electricity supplies costing £30 million.

But that is not what I wrote about.

Philips Phlopp wrote that the costs of distributing diesel around the network had been ignored. I was making the point that the cost of distributing electricity around the network had been ignored.

I was not arguing the case for using diesels on the GW MAIN LINE.

OK with railway economics it's not that simple, but the TOC would be more profitable and so can pay more in premiums to the DfT which can use that money to reinvent in the railways. The government would probably see you their money back over a 20 to 30 year period.

Yes it doesn't work on small branch lines as you will not see the number of units, until you get to a point where there are very few DMU's and the cost in buying a custom order of 100 coaches or less starts pushing the lease costs up still further.

That last situation is not likely to arise for a couple of decades - at which point if you can predict what will happen then I will happily ask you to get me the winning lottery numbers

 

[The Ham]

But that is not what I wrote about.

Philips Phlopp wrote that the costs of distributing diesel around the network had been ignored. I was making the point that the cost of distributing electricity around the network had been ignored.

I was not arguing the case for using diesels on the GW MAIN LINE.

The cost of the feeder points, I would suggest are included in the cost to electrify the line. However I was pointing out that even if they were not included that the "payback" from just one element which was cheaper (the rolling stock leases) it would pay for it in a fairly short time.

That last situation is not likely to arise for a couple of decades - at which point if you can predict what will happen then I will happily ask you to get me the winning lottery numbers

I agree it is some time off, however once orders are for small number of units which can only be used on the UK rail network (read custom design) it is likely that lease costs compared to a large order of units which could be used anywhere (read off the shelf).

It is not hard to predict winning lottery numbers the trick is know which draw and for which lottery in the world the numbers are for!

 

[73001]

I assume this is in response to the use of a Ford diesel engine which happens to be used in their commercial vehicles.

Clearly you've forgotten that a number of DMUs have used commercial vehicle diesel engines - including the Leyland TL11 and Leyland / AEC units.

Most of which produced far less power than the Ford unit proposed does - and those old Leylands / AECs were driving mechanical transmission - which is less efficient than the driving electric motors the Ford unit is doing in this installation.

It was meant as a joke (:roll but I doubt you'd ever find many spares for a Leyland 0.600 in Halfords whereas you might find a selection of bits that would fit the Ford.

 

[lincolnshire]

I do wish this tread would get back to the point of Class 230 units or better known as ex underground trains converted to run on a diesel engine bolted underneath and refurbished.

Electrification of all lines where these could run will not be completed by the time these are sent for scrap, so leave out the electrification and get back to the thread.

Lets all wait and see what happens when the units get out on a proper test run and see what top sped they can reach as up to press I don,t think Vivarail has ever claimed a speed for the units anywhere on there site. Its no good saying 60 mph as that was when they was on the underground running on 3rd rail.

Its passengers travelling on overcrowded trains that matter so if you have just travelled on a full and standing Pacer to get home would it have been better to have a seat or more room round you to stand on a better train then?

So get one out there and see what the passengers think they are the best judge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its passengers travelling on overcrowded trains that matter so if you have just travelled on a full and standing Pacer to get home would it have been better to have a seat or more room round you to stand on a better train then?

And this is my view. They are DMUs, which are better than no DMUs.

Mind you, I wouldn't be scrapping any Pacers any time soon either if it were my choice.

 

[Domh245]

Lets all wait and see what happens when the units get out on a proper test run and see what top sped they can reach as up to press I don,t think Vivarail has ever claimed a speed for the units anywhere on there site. Its no good saying 60 mph as that was when they was on the underground running on 3rd rail.

60 is their hard limit. On LU they were (theoretically) limited to 45, but 50 wasn't unheard of back in the day. With the wheel sizes that they have, as well as the motors and gearing (all of which are staying the same) 60 is as fast as they will go.

 

[northwichcat]

Electrification of all lines where these could run will not be completed by the time these are sent for scrap, so leave out the electrification and get back to the thread.

That's actually a negative point as they'll need replacing with new self-powered trains and there may not be "low-cost" conversions available when they are scrapped, meaning brand new DMUs could be built in 10 years time, which will be worse than building them now.

I say "low-cost" because it seems a fully refurbished D-Train with a toilet will cost almost as much to lease as the brand new CAF DMUs will cost.

 

[Emblematic]

On the other hand, ten years gives time for the alternative technologies being trialled to mature, so the independently-powered train you buy in a decade may well not be a DMU.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So get one out there and see what the passengers think they are the best judge.

Are you saying that all test approvals have now been made which will allow this to happen now?

Also, I see from what you say, that prospective passengers are now to be an integral part of any final approval, with the proviso that they are not expected to be subject to any financial stresses to their purse-strings should any OFFICIALLY ACCEPTED approval not be so forthcoming.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Are you saying that all test approvals have now been made which will allow this to happen now?

Passes my tests

1) Does it have wheels?

2) Does it have seating?

3) Does it have an engine?

4) Is there a driver?

If yes to all four, off it goes for main line testing

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Passes my tests

1) Does it have wheels?

2) Does it have seating?

3) Does it have an engine?

4) Is there a driver?

If yes to all four, off it goes for main line testing

Well, I learn something new every day. I was not aware that if any new unit that was to be subject to all standard tests now had an alternative pre-testing regime that made no mention of any crash-worthiness whatsoever and all they had to do was to make an application to you...

 

[450.emu]

Noting what our moderator has had to say in terms of this thread being about the Class 230 "Vivarail" project and what you say above, I have just had a mental image of close-coupled Class 230 units of similar train length running from Manchester to the South Coast and not exceeding 60mph at any time on that journey...

Can I ask for consideration of a Manchester to Bognor Regis direct service, please.

Repainted District Line trains with Ford Transit engines in? This I've gotta see :roll:

 

[A0]

It was meant as a joke (:roll but I doubt you'd ever find many spares for a Leyland 0.600 in Halfords whereas you might find a selection of bits that would fit the Ford.

You'll struggle to find spares for a Leyland 0.600 in general nowadays.

In the same way you'll struggle to find anything other than the basic sundries e.g. spark plugs, air filters for other engines of the 70s / 80s e.g Ford Pinto, Ford Essex / Cologne V6.

But seriously - is it a bad thing that they are using an engine which has a good reputation for reliability, ease of service and potentially even ease of replacement?

There are no shortage of Transits running around with a couple of hundred thousand miles on the clock (the bodywork tends to succumb long before the mechanical parts) and in that installation the engines and transmissions are treated far more harshly than they will be in this - as you'll know if you've ever followed a builder's transit and seen how they get driven.......

 

[A0]

Lets all wait and see what happens when the units get out on a proper test run and see what top sped they can reach as up to press I don,t think Vivarail has ever claimed a speed for the units anywhere on there site. Its no good saying 60 mph as that was when they was on the underground running on 3rd rail.

Well actually it is - because the way these are being engineered is the diesel engine is being used to provide the electricity for the electric motors.

So the performance of the motor is a known already - the change is the additional weight of the diesel engine - which I suspect isn't that significant.

If it were changing to mechanical transmission, I'd agree with you - but they're not.

 

[Dstock7080]

So the performance of the motor is a known already - the change is the additional weight of the diesel engine - which I suspect isn't that significant.

minus the weight of the very heavy electro-pneumatic camshaft mechanism which is being removed from DM cars

 

[asylumxl]

In the same way you'll struggle to find anything other than the basic sundries e.g. spark plugs, air filters for other engines of the 70s / 80s e.g Ford Pinto, Ford Essex / Cologne V6.

I know it's OT, but you'd be surprised. The Pinto and Cologne V6 are still quite popular for kit cars and such. Plenty of companies still produce more major components for them.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Works the other way round. This leads me to believe that the 230s will in fact be the victims of theft as they provide parts for certain members of the car/van owning public. Just like Land Rovers get stolen for re-sue in Africa.

As for testing - surely this is not beyond the wit of WCRC to execute .

 

[Clip]

Well, I learn something new every day. I was not aware that if any new unit that was to be subject to all standard tests now had an alternative pre-testing regime that made no mention of any crash-worthiness whatsoever and all they had to do was to make an application to you...

Crashworthiness must already be proven given they used to share the same metals with other big boy trains.

But in essence yes all it really needs is Ark Royals approval.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Crashworthiness must already be proven given they used to share the same metals with other big boy trains.

But in essence yes all it really needs is Ark Royals approval.

Indeed - never failed a train yet

 

[D365]

Indeed - never failed a train yet

Not even a Pacer with bus benches and the engine fallen off?

 

[Clip]

Not even a Pacer with bus benches and the engine fallen off?

He put his feet through the floor flinstones style

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Not even a Pacer with bus benches and the engine fallen off?

Never

He put his feet through the floor flinstones style

That was an emergency test