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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Bletchleyite

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For the Windermere branch In particular they could look at a few more 195's vice 331's or perhaps get the Northern Connect standard waived for this route and use the Bi-mode 319's.

As I've said I think bi-mode units *should* be used on the Lakes and Furness service groups, and with a long running distance under the wires at and approaching 100mph but a relatively short running distance on diesel at lower speed are an absolutely perfect candidate.

If the Northern Connect spec could be reduced for these service groups (the only reduction needed would be that of new rolling stock and air conditioning, though the latter could be fitted to a 319 - I see no reason why the rest of the spec could not be met with a decent refurb at a reasonable cost, i.e. new seats with tables, USB power sockets) the D-319 concept would be ideal, and would allow actual new DMUs to be used elsewhere.
 
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boxerdog

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Signalling diagram for the bay platform has been doing the rounds for a couple of years and considering the documentation saying its going in the North yard is from LM then I would assume there is some truth in it.

I believe the Class 230 will be stabled at Nuneaton, in the ASDA sidings, behind platform 1.
 
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I'm quite sure it didn't exceed it's speed limit (or possibly even reach it) - I was more wondering if it is always going to be pathed as a Sprinter due to the higher acceleration making up the difference? I seem to remember that being part of the discussion earlier in the thread.

the anoraks and their SPLD when it comes to TOPS / RTT comes to the fore again ...

it'll be pathed as sprinter becasue that;s the les inappropriate standard pathing set up ... a 60 mph goods would be just as wrong timings wise.
 

kieron

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the anoraks and their SPLD when it comes to TOPS / RTT comes to the fore again ...

it'll be pathed as sprinter becasue that;s the les inappropriate standard pathing set up ... a 60 mph goods would be just as wrong timings wise.
Will it at least become a 60mph sprinter if a TOC decides to use it longer term? I'd imagine having to mess with the timings whenever you move them on a faster line would get annoying after a while.
 

Bantamzen

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After viewing the videos of the 230's, I have to say that I am impressed. Hopefully Northern and GWR will be encouraged by the DfT to take a certain number on as I can't imaging seeing a class 195 being used on the Penistone Line.

Should Northern have a 230 trial then the Pontefract, Penistone, Windermere, Barton, Brig and dare i say Denton lines would be as good a place to trial it on, as for GWR should they have a trail then other than the Devon and Cornwall branches I do think that the Westbury to Swindon shuttle (when I've used it its been a 153) could also be one service to trial it on.

There's only so much conversions and bi modes that can be produced, I do think that a three car class 230 would be suitble for a 142 replacement as its almost like for like and the way that the North has become busier over the past decade it won't be long before the 150's are converted to four car units since we won't have any 153's or Pacer stock after 2020 unless the 143's and 144's are converted to e14x.

Here we go again. Arriva will have looked at the 230 option, and have clearly decided that it is not for them. If issues arise with sections not getting wired as they may have thought then they will have other options to explore before taking on yet another micro-fleet of units. And if cascades are delayed for the same reasons, they can just keep some of the Pacers operating the routes in question until the cascades finally arrive.

It's pretty much well known where the 195/331s will go, with the majority going to operate the new 'Connect' brand. Routes like the Penistone will see any Pacer operations being replaced with 15x, depending on what exactly is cleared to operate them. And if there is a serious shortage of 3-car DMUs, another operator close by might just have a few going spare as their new stock comes on-line. So those 185s could be used to bolster Connect and other routes where they can operate, freeing up other 15xs to cover the remaining routes primarily operated by Pacers.

I seriously doubt having avoided them at the submission of the contract, Arriva would suddenly fall back to the 230 option simply because a few people seem determined to see them operate for Northern no matter what.
 

Clip

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People seem to think 'Micro fleet' is a bad thing but yet never quite explained why.

Especially with these units.
 

pemma

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If the Northern Connect spec could be reduced for these service groups (the only reduction needed would be that of new rolling stock and air conditioning, though the latter could be fitted to a 319 - I see no reason why the rest of the spec could not be met with a decent refurb at a reasonable cost, i.e. new seats with tables, USB power sockets) the D-319 concept would be ideal, and would allow actual new DMUs to be used elsewhere.

I'm sure Porterbrook will be very happy that you seem to be doing the work of their sales executive's job without the top salary or the company car. However, it's the Right Hon. John Woodcock who you might have difficulty selling in the 319 concept for Cumbria to.
 

HLE

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I believe the Class 230 will be stabled at Nuneaton, in the ASDA sidings, behind platform 1.

Surprised that's got out so quick, an interesting decision which raises more questions than it solves!
 

61653 HTAFC

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People seem to think 'Micro fleet' is a bad thing but yet never quite explained why.

Especially with these units.

Well, we know that having just one or two units of a given type can be a problem for staff training and for maintenance, but these issues aren't insurmountable. For example the 139s at Stourbridge don't seem to cause problems for LM though that's down to the staffing and maintenance being a dedicated team. There's nothing to stop a similar arrangement with 230s, but in any case most drivers and guards will sign multiple types already so adding another shouldn't cause too much trouble.

There are examples historically of micro-fleets not being a problem: Leeds-Doncaster having the 3 321s being an obvious one. Also, when does a micro-fleet cease being a micro-fleet? West Yorkshire has had the 7 155 units for almost 30 years and those units are staying with Northern, though the 153s are going. Is 3 units a micro-fleet but 7 isn't? Where's the cut-off then?
 

Clip

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Well, we know that having just one or two units of a given type can be a problem for staff training and for maintenance, but these issues aren't insurmountable. For example the 139s at Stourbridge don't seem to cause problems for LM though that's down to the staffing and maintenance being a dedicated team. There's nothing to stop a similar arrangement with 230s, but in any case most drivers and guards will sign multiple types already so adding another shouldn't cause too much trouble.

There are examples historically of micro-fleets not being a problem: Leeds-Doncaster having the 3 321s being an obvious one. Also, when does a micro-fleet cease being a micro-fleet? West Yorkshire has had the 7 155 units for almost 30 years and those units are staying with Northern, though the 153s are going. Is 3 units a micro-fleet but 7 isn't? Where's the cut-off then?


No point asking me as I think it's fine just like don't ask me why these units are not suitable for certain areas because they don't do 125mph yet for others this is a problem yet they forget that other units/lhcs don't do such a speed either on the same lines either.

Can you see where their arguments fall down yet?
 

pemma

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There are examples historically of micro-fleets not being a problem: Leeds-Doncaster having the 3 321s being an obvious one. Also, when does a micro-fleet cease being a micro-fleet? West Yorkshire has had the 7 155 units for almost 30 years and those units are staying with Northern, though the 153s are going. Is 3 units a micro-fleet but 7 isn't? Where's the cut-off then?

I think it partly depends what else in the fleet. I'd say LO's 8 x 172s is more of a micro-fleet than Northern's 7 x 155s because Northern have a larger Sprinter fleet and 155s are compatible with all types of Sprinter.
 

lincolnshire

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Its not much different as to having staff trained to operate the train as it is at Cleethorpes where the Trans Pennine Express staff operate the Barton Flyer for Northern Trains as they have no staff allocated to Cleethorpes.
TPE staff trained for 170 & 185,s for them and 153 for Northern and also sign for the Barton route too.
Another example of a type of micro fleet arrangment.

What will happen when East Midland Trains takes over the route in 2017?
Train crews and train coming from Lincoln?

As said above you don,t get no more micro fleet as the 139.s at Stourbridge.
 
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61653 HTAFC

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I think it partly depends what else in the fleet. I'd say LO's 8 x 172s is more of a micro-fleet than Northern's 7 x 155s because Northern have a larger Sprinter fleet and 155s are compatible with all types of Sprinter.

Compatible yes, but not identical- they're separate on drivers' traction cards and will be quite different from everything except 153s as far as maintenance is concerned. The LO 172s were always going to be a micro-fleet as the Goblin is the only diesel line on LO.
 

pemma

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Compatible yes, but not identical- they're separate on drivers' traction cards and will be quite different from everything except 153s as far as maintenance is concerned.

But there are many advantages to Northern having 7 x 155s over say 7 x 2 car 175s. For instance, there are currently booked 155+153 workings which wouldn't work if you switch the 155s for 175s, plus the differences between 175s and Sprinters are much greater than the differences between 155s and other Sprinters.
 

swt_passenger

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Its not much different as to having staff trained to operate the train as it is at Cleethorpes where the Trans Pennine Express staff operate the Barton Flyer for Northern Trains as they have no staff allocated to Cleethorpes.

Not to mention the maintainers, all the different spare parts ranges and special tools needed in the depot etc.
 

HLE

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Anyway, back on topic, the move didn't happen this morning.....cancelled from Tyseley - still appears to be teething issues with the unit.
 

nuneatonmark

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Anyway, back on topic, the move didn't happen this morning.....cancelled from Tyseley - still appears to be teething issues with the unit.

Thanks for the the update HLE, any idea at all what the 'teething problems' are?
 
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153375

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According to real train times the 230 is on a double test run on both Monday and Tuesday evening from Tysley to Leamington Spa. Hopefully just a minor hiccup. Sorry can't link page as don't know how to.
 

E_Reeves

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I'm hoping the test Wednesday-Saturday take place. Does anybody know where it is at the moment? It is meant to be staying in Nuneaton CE sidings, but not sure if it is there?
 
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Bantamzen

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No point asking me as I think it's fine just like don't ask me why these units are not suitable for certain areas because they don't do 125mph yet for others this is a problem yet they forget that other units/lhcs don't do such a speed either on the same lines either.

Can you see where their arguments fall down yet?

Having units incapable of the advertised top speeds can cause problems. When the 321/9s were the only units operating on the Leeds-Doncaster, the loss, even temporary of one resulted in 75mph units often covering, and even on a relatively short run they could lose quite a bit of time. If say a 144 covered it was not uncommon for them to lose 15-20 mins in the peaks. And of course this resulted in knock-on delays, diagrams being terminated short and considerable inconvenience for the paying punters. So it surely makes some sense to have units capable of actually running somewhere close to the speed other services will be. Or you could use the kop out of padding out the timetables.......

But all of this ignores the decision that Arriva have already made. 230s are not in their plans, nor do they need to be. Perhaps a better question to ask the forum why some continue to make 1,001 reasons why Northern ought to take them when clearly they don't want or need them?
 

Clip

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Having units incapable of the advertised top speeds can cause problems. When the 321/9s were the only units operating on the Leeds-Doncaster, the loss, even temporary of one resulted in 75mph units often covering, and even on a relatively short run they could lose quite a bit of time. If say a 144 covered it was not uncommon for them to lose 15-20 mins in the peaks. And of course this resulted in knock-on delays, diagrams being terminated short and considerable inconvenience for the paying punters. So it surely makes some sense to have units capable of actually running somewhere close to the speed other services will be. Or you could use the kop out of padding out the timetables.......

But all of this ignores the decision that Arriva have already made. 230s are not in their plans, nor do they need to be. Perhaps a better question to ask the forum why some continue to make 1,001 reasons why Northern ought to take them when clearly they don't want or need them?

e then and show me anywhere in the post you quoted of mine where I mentioned arrival or indeed northern?
 

D365

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... why some continue to make 1,001 reasons why Northern ought to take them when clearly they don't want or need them?

Because Northern isn't going to receive a number of DMUs within the time that they expected due to electrification delays?
 

asylumxl

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Because Northern isn't going to receive a number of DMUs within the time that they expected due to electrification delays?
I wonder if Northern would be interested in the units without government pressure?

Don't win votes by giving the North "London's hand me downs".
 

tbtc

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Here we go again. Arriva will have looked at the 230 option, and have clearly decided that it is not for them. If issues arise with sections not getting wired as they may have thought then they will have other options to explore before taking on yet another micro-fleet of units. And if cascades are delayed for the same reasons, they can just keep some of the Pacers operating the routes in question until the cascades finally arrive.

It's pretty much well known where the 195/331s will go, with the majority going to operate the new 'Connect' brand. Routes like the Penistone will see any Pacer operations being replaced with 15x, depending on what exactly is cleared to operate them. And if there is a serious shortage of 3-car DMUs, another operator close by might just have a few going spare as their new stock comes on-line. So those 185s could be used to bolster Connect and other routes where they can operate, freeing up other 15xs to cover the remaining routes primarily operated by Pacers.

I seriously doubt having avoided them at the submission of the contract, Arriva would suddenly fall back to the 230 option simply because a few people seem determined to see them operate for Northern no matter what.

I'm not saying that Arriva will take any 230s on. But the history of the railway is full of examples of grand promises (to generate positive headlines) that are watered down a year or two later.

For example the 60x4 coach 185s became 51x3 coach 185s, the double tracked Borders line became single track for long sections, CP5 electrification gets pushed into CP6 or scaled back.

BR were guilty of this - the privatised railway is guilty of this. It happens elsewhere in transport (e.g. proposals for a "guided busway" end up delivering a "bus lane").

So, whilst Arriva came in with a positive tender that promised new stock (331s, 195s), subsequent developments may make 230s more attractive:

Delays in electrifying some Northern routes (331s are great but not much use in Windermere until the wires go up, since they aren't bi-mode)

Delays in electrifying routes elsewhere in the UK impacting upon cascaded stock being available to Northern (e.g. the ScotRail 170s won't leave until the GWR HSTs head north of the border - so that's roughly fifty coaches that Arriva's bid relies upon being available)

Unknown how long upgrades to the ex-BR DMUs will take (to get the 155/ 156/ 158s fit for 1 January 2020 - we don't know how long they will be out of service for and therefore how many will be out of service at one time)

No scope for keeping most Pacers operational beyond 2019 (the ePacer isn't exactly setting the heather on fire, as far as I can see). You're going to need to spend a lot of money on any Pacers you want to keep running beyond 31 December 2019.

There will be hundreds of unwanted EMU carriages in a few years time (Greater Anglia must be getting rid of 500?) but a significant number of the DMUs coming onto the market are going to be single coach 153s - that would cost a lot to upgrade and may not be suitable.

Plenty of Northern routes where the current 75mph DMUs never need to go over 60mph (as previously discussed). Don't rule anything out yet. 230s may not be popular but they would be a lot less toxic than keeping Pacers in operation.

There are examples historically of micro-fleets not being a problem: Leeds-Doncaster having the 3 321s being an obvious one. Also, when does a micro-fleet cease being a micro-fleet?

One of those really annoying bits of penny pinching (not getting enough 333s to replace the three 321/9s too - they may have only needed a couple more 333s given the economies of scale).

I think it partly depends what else in the fleet. I'd say LO's 8 x 172s is more of a micro-fleet than Northern's 7 x 155s because Northern have a larger Sprinter fleet and 155s are compatible with all types of Sprinter.

The LO 172s are presumably restricted to one line, one roster of drivers, no messing about getting route clearance or maintaining traction knowledge beyond that little diesel island.

The Yorkshire 155s can pop up on a lot of different routes over the course of a monthwhich presumably means a lot more traction knowledge etc to keep up.
 
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