Creeping urbanisation

[railfan99]

One of the great aspects of travelling in the UK for foreigners can be viewing long rows of miners'/workingmens' cottages.

Think about Warrington Bank Quay (IIRC) in the up direction towards London if one looks east. Amazing to see all those 130-140? year old chimneys lined up (even if a migrating English gent informed me there was often one toilet shared between two residences, and it was outside). Plymouth is another example where from a GWR train one can see similar terrace rows on approach.

But that's history, so an integral part of the landscape that oozes character.

In the 21st century, as England's population increases, and probably like my nation the median number of persons per dwelling decreases (partly due to Baby Boomers born 1946-64 ageing, meaning many more widows/widowers), does creeping urbanisation threaten historically 'green' vistas from the carriage window of England's preserved railways?

Do heritage railways receive complaints about this even though it's not the railway's 'fault'?

 

[30907]

Interesting question. I am not sure most heritage lines are affected, because the areas they serve are slightly remote (that's why they closed!). Travelling up and down the KWVR, though, I am aware of a fair amount of new-ish housing, not all of which is on brownfield sites - but then thecline itself is quite urban.

 

[Magdalia]

(partly due to Baby Boomers born 1946-64 ageing, meaning many more widows/widowers)

Apart from a spike in 1946, the UK baby boom is roughly 1955-1973. The 1946-64 baby boom is what happened in the USA not the UK. The UK baby boomers are not dying in big numbers yet, so there are not many more widows and widowers in the UK.

the median number of persons per dwelling decreases

But higher never married and divorce rates do that.

 

[Bedpan]

One that has become more and more urban as time has gone by is the Leighton Buzzard Narrow Gauge Railway, which as far as I can recall ran through countryside for most of its route when I first went on it in the 1970s. Now the first half of the ride runs largely between the bottom of peoples' back gardens.

 

[xotGD]

What used to be green fields are now suburbs as you head out of Loughborough on the GCR.

I wonder if the developers charged extra for the Executive Homes with steam trains at the bottom of the garden?

 

[Lost property]

What used to be green fields are now suburbs as you head out of Loughborough on the GCR.

I wonder if the developers charged extra for the Executive Homes with steam trains at the bottom of the garden?

It may come as a surprise to you, but, normals tend to look at many other aspects when it comes to house purchases.

Not everybody is obsessed with having a choo choo train in their vicinity....so they may have been offered a discount as an incentive.

 

[SeanG]

Conversely there may be instances where urban surroundings are the attraction - I'm thinking the East Lancs at Bury where an urban preserved station is somewhat different to the usual stereotypical country branch line halt

 

[railfan99]

Conversely there may be instances where urban surroundings are the attraction - I'm thinking the East Lancs at Bury where an urban preserved station is somewhat different to the usual stereotypical country branch line halt

I've been there: ironically, the ELR is sometimes criticised for being 'too urban'. I didn't perceive that.

 

[Gloster]

I wonder if the developers charged extra for the Executive Homes with steam trains at the bottom of the garden?

Selling point: being able to tell people ‘We’ve got prairies at the bottom of our garden.’

 

[xotGD]

It may come as a surprise to you, but, normals tend to look at many other aspects when it comes to house purchases.

Not everybody is obsessed with having a choo choo train in their vicinity....so they may have been offered a discount as an incentive.

Like I was being serious.

I've been there: ironically, the ELR is sometimes criticised for being 'too urban'. I didn't perceive that.

From Bury to Heywood the line is not very attractive. My wife's reaction was that she wouldn't want to travel on that part of the line again. The scenic sections are in the other direction towards Rawtenstall, once you are clear of Bury.

 

[Titfield]

Conversely there may be instances where urban surroundings are the attraction - I'm thinking the East Lancs at Bury where an urban preserved station is somewhat different to the usual stereotypical country branch line halt

I visited Bury last summer and yes I was impressed with the very 60s feeling of the station ticket hall. It felt like a full scale version of one of the 1960 Triang Hornby railway station booking halls. Not every heritage railway has the victorian splendour of say Corfe Castle Station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've been there: ironically, the ELR is sometimes criticised for being 'too urban'. I didn't perceive that.

I wouldn't say the ELR is "too urban"... too  suburban in stretches maybe, the vista of Barratt newbuilds isn't the best.

 

[Lost property]

Like I was being serious.


From Bury to Heywood the line is not very attractive. My wife's reaction was that she wouldn't want to travel on that part of the line again. The scenic sections are in the other direction towards Rawtenstall, once you are clear of Bury.

Given the content of many of the inane / obsessive posts on here, I find that difficult to believe

Bury to Heywood isn't that attractive, but surely that's irrelevant to spotters who seem more obsessed with the loco hauling the stock. Mind you, Bury is also a dump, apart from the market that is.

This from somebody who knows the area well and can thus comment appropriately.

I used to go to Rammy a lot to see a friend when she lived there. All I can say, is, the service on the ELR tended to be "variable ".

 

[Deepgreen]

In short - yes. Small (and large) developments are happening all the time and preserved railways are not immune.

Interesting question. I am not sure most heritage lines are affected, because the areas they serve are slightly remote (that's why they closed!). Travelling up and down the KWVR, though, I am aware of a fair amount of new-ish housing, not all of which is on brownfield sites - but then thecline itself is quite urban.

However, new homes today are not reliant on a nearby railway service, Metroland-style.

 

[railfan99]

In short - yes. Small (and large) developments are happening all the time and preserved railways are not immune.

I doubt it'd be successful, but have any heritage railways ever objected to proposed new housing (or commercial/industrial) developments on the basis they'd be out of character with the line, or intruding on views?

(It may not be a valid grounds of objection, but I'm not familiar with the detail of your planning regulations).

 

[Calthrop]

One that has become more and more urban as time has gone by is the Leighton Buzzard Narrow Gauge Railway, which as far as I can recall ran through countryside for most of its route when I first went on it in the 1970s. Now the first half of the ride runs largely between the bottom of peoples' back gardens.

I have also been aware of this change, vis-a-vis this line, over the decades concerned. Have not, for myself, found said circumstance all that bothersome: the LBNGR impresses me as never having been essentially "about" attractive surroundings -- its appeal more, to me, is its being a delightfully weird, and somewhat crudely "crafted" (that not meant disparagingly) narrow-gauge industrial line. And -- with all due respect to rural south-west Bedfordshire -- the countryside traversed by the line ("as was", and as now remains in its outer reaches) strikes me as being fairly humdrum.

 

[Taunton]

In Southern California the principal museum has long been the Orange Empire, at Perris, about 80 miles east of downtown Los Angeles. When I first went there in 1980 it was in the desert - cheap land, nothing about. Access irrelevant because this is LA and everyone, not that there were ever that many visitors, went there by car. Over time the urban area has slowly advanced over the horizon, and it's now getting surrounded. This brings major issues. One is vandalism and security (it's a big site), another is the danger that property developers have their eye on the land.

 

[merry]

What used to be green fields are now suburbs as you head out of Loughborough on the GCR.

I wonder if the developers charged extra for the Executive Homes with steam trains at the bottom of the garden?

Unfortunately not...the new residents are mostly unappreciative of the railway at the bottom of the garden. I understand many buyers were told it doesn't have many trains...if only the developers had mentioned diesel galas
Loughborough also has new housing all round the station on former industrial sites. We should support brownfield development really, it avoids eating up the countryside, but those new neighbours don't always like the noise of existing industry!

If down arrivals are held at Loughborough inner home, the new residents adjacent apparently complain about the noise, particularly when it's a diesel (to be fair things like a 50 are loud even on idle!). So signalmen are told it's better to hold down trains at the outer home if we can't bring them straight into a platform (to be fair, it is often operationally easier to leave trains there anyway, but regs say when possible we should bring trains inside the outer home at the earliest opportunity). A compromise to keep people happy when we can!

 

[Barclay]

The whole of the GC should be designated a Conservation Area for the purposes of raising design quality of new developments alongside. The stuff round Woodthorpe could've been designed in a style sympathetic to the heritage context, but it's all just standard volume housebuilder stuff. Precedent exists for a long linear conservation area in the form of the Settle-Carlisle Railway and the Grand Union Canal.

 

[peteb]

The whole of the GC should be designated a Conservation Area for the purposes of raising design quality of new developments alongside. The stuff round Woodthorpe could've been designed in a style sympathetic to the heritage context, but it's all just standard volume housebuilder stuff. Precedent exists for a long linear conservation area in the form of the Settle-Carlisle Railway and the Grand Union Canal

Be careful for what you wish for. Whilst there are several canal conservation areas and indeed some parts of some heritage railways are already sited within existing conservation areas, it should be remembered that designation can be onerous for the landowner. For example trees above a certain trunk girth are automatically TPO'd, so works to these would need a statutory notice to the Local Planning Authority. Also it's not that simple to create a linear conservation area, the LPA would need to consult every adjacent landowner, and they might object. Also it's virtually impossible to preserve views into or out of the Conservation Area unless the land is also designated. You'll find most LPA's are stretched in terms of conservation planning staff, so the huge amount of work involved in designating a new conservation area may simply be impractical for an LPA to consider.

What used to be green fields are now suburbs as you head out of Loughborough on the GCR.

I wonder if the developers charged extra for the Executive Homes with steam trains at the bottom of the garden?

The same is going to be true at the Severn Valley Railway at Bewdley where recently planning permission was granted for new housing adjacent to the line in what had been green belt.

 

[M7R]

It’s sad the amount of new bland generic box houses near GCR that are multiplying, my friend lives in an older house that backs on to the line just outside Loughborough (any regulars will no doubt have seen their little lad peering over the fence as he has a ladder set up for him) when they was looking at the house the estate agent did warn them there was a railway there but did say it didn’t run to much….they knew full well how much the railway ran and it was one of the main reasons for buying the house not sure the folks in the newer cardboard houses are as impressed though as they always all seem to look grumpy when I see them when we go past

 

[railfan99]

...not sure the folks in the newer cardboard houses are as impressed though as they always all seem to look grumpy when I see them when we go past

The GCR has been a fixture at Loughburough for many years, so if new residents are allegedly annoyed, they have only themselves to blame as they must not have carried out sufficient due diligence. With the rare exception of once a year, it's not as if GCR operates at 0200 hours, and I assume standard operations such as lighting-up are sufficiently distant not to be heard by these whinging Poms (apologies for using those words - if you find the phrase offensive I will happily delete - but I gather many in the UK know that expression that's commonly used in the Antipodean ex-penal colony).

M7R, could you post a photo of these new homes from GCR's lineside if you get a chance so I can refresh my memory and judge whether they look attractive or not?

 

[Barclay]

Here is the GC South of Loughborough from Google Streetview; the railway runs ahead of the close-boarded fences and you can see the underbridge to the right. Those houses should've faced the railway and been built in a uniform neo-Victorian design with uniform materials. People like historicist architecture (look at Poundbury) and with a bit of flair the new builds could even have enhanced the setting of the railway. The stuff on road the Streetview car is parked on is a bit better, but it's still fairly bogstandard stuff.

 

[peteb]

It's a perennial problem: a new housing estate is built close to an existing feature eg: pub, football stadium, car park, heritage railway yard. Next thing the very planners that approved it are being bombarded by complaints, however it's too bad: noise, smoke nuisance etc are not post-planning issues but environmental health, the very experts that usually raised no objections to the development in the first place, so it really us caveat emptor!!

 

[Mr. SW]

My picture 28/01/2024 taken from Woodthorpe Main Street/Lodge End Bridge View North.
You can see the encroachment.

 

[railfan99]

Here is the GC South of Loughborough from Google Streetview; the railway runs ahead of the close-boarded fences and you can see the underbridge to the right. Those houses should've faced the railway and been built in a uniform neo-Victorian design with uniform materials. People like historicist architecture (look at Poundbury) and with a bit of flair the new builds could even have enhanced the setting of the railway. The stuff on road the Streetview car is parked on is a bit better, but it's still fairly bogstandard stuff.

Thank you and Mr. SW for the photos.

As someone not from the UK, I don't even remember these from my visit. You are the heritage experts, but at least from my perspective they're not 20 storey ugly concrete apartments.

Would 'historical' architecture have pushed up the price to make them unaffordable for the type of local buyer needing new housing, or alternatively if sold to investors, made rents too high?

 

[LWB]

For what it’s worth a similar thing is happening/has happened alongside canals. In this case there is a positive enhancement to market value if a premises is alongside a canal, especially if gardens have their own water frontage. Used to be called ribbon development and was expressly avoided in town planning in order to preserve ‘the green belt’. England’s green and pleasant land is dying fast!

 

[izvor]

Another railway suffering from this is the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch, which now has long stretches between back gardens due to the spread of "bungalitis" since the line opened. Thankfully there are still good stretches of open countryside, and Dungeness retains its uniqueness.

And to be fair, one probably doesn't visit this lovely railway for the scenery!