Cross Channel (Chunnel) Metro

[STEVIEBOY1]

Some time ago I read or heard about a possible idea of a "Local/Metro" type service travelling from certain stations in Kent & Sussex, through the Channel Tunnel to local stations in Northern France, I guess they would have to stop in both directions at Ashford and Calais Frethun for UK & French customs and security.

It is a very good idea in theory, but I wonder if it ever could happen? At the moment apart from Brussels, London and Paris the other only major destination is Lille.

For passengers coming from France & Belgium, Canterbury would be a very good calling point for the history and Cathedral of that city. In addition to Ashford, then Brighton could be good for shopping. Broadstairs, Whitstable, Eastbourne, Hastings and Margate would be good seaside destinations, the latter because of the new Art Gallery there.

Then for UK passengers, stops at St. Omer, Boulogne and Le Touquet would be good as they are present towns, plus perhaps Arras and Amiens which in addition to Lille are also great cities.

I think when the tunnel was being completed they did run some Thameslink trains through which would be good as they could handle the third rail in the UK as well the overhead pick ups in the tunnel and Europe. There would have to be a pre-booking system to ensure that everyone has a seat as you could not really have standing passengers.

 

[user15681]

Not sure about it myself. If there was a high enough demand, and usage, provided it was physically feasible, then it would be good.

As for the Thameslink trains you mention, yes they did run two 319s through the tunnel on one or two days, with passengers on board. However, they had to have their pantographs modified at Chart Leacon in order to reach the higher OHLE inside the tunnel.

 

[317666]

I'm not entirely sure that the demand for such a service is there. How many people want to go from, say, Ashford to Calais, compared to those who want to go from London to Paris or Brussels?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Under the present price structure Ashford to Frethun is the same price as St Pancras to Paris / Bruxelle so it's not really surprising that demand at present is low.

If the Eurotunnel passenger toll could be negotiated down considerably for such a service in order to allow it to offer a reasonable fare, then demand probably would increase - but you would also need to arrange through ticketing with CIV protection from most stations in the London / South East area for it to work since the hassle of re-ticketing would be a deterrent to travel. A much shorter check in than Eurostar's 30 minutes minimum would be a must as well.

 

[Gordon]

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There is 'no demand' as there has never been any attempt to promote local services through the Channel Tunnel, all due to the well known Thatcherite-led safety/funding/costs issues from the start - which have been discussed here before.

In a sensible world, 'normal' trains would have been introduced at 'normal' fares and it could have worked, as proved by the use of the 319s.

The 319s were used to transport dignitaries and journalists on the first ever passenger trains through the tunnel in December 1993, then further used for public runs in 1994, proving it could be done.

see 'Notable units' section of this wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_319

Typically, no one saw fit to mark the anniversary of this last December despite the trains still running with FCC with the relevant decoration still fitted:

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/158/0062ybqj4.jpg


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[Oscar]

Of course it would be possible and sensible to introduce some form of local service, but some of the current structures would need to be dismantled, and that is currently very difficult to do. These include border, security, fares and track access arrangements.

 

[gordonthemoron]

is it possible to commute to London from Calais/Lille on E*? Knew a computer operator at Blandford House in the 1980s who commuted weekly from Ostend by jetfoil/ship

 

[Muzer]

For one strange moment, I thought you meant a service that stopped periodically along the tunnel to serve the various patches of the English Channel

 

[Gordon]

is it possible to commute to London from Calais/Lille on E*? Knew a computer operator at Blandford House in the 1980s who commuted weekly from Ostend by jetfoil/ship

AFAIK a few people have tried it but it must be expensive.


It could be easy to do it from Calais, as the journey time is less than an hour, but there is no decent service!

Currently there is a direct train at 10.01 from Calais to ST P 0957 but not train back until 19xx from St P arriving Calais 21.29 local time.

MUCH better Lille - London with several trains at the right times for commuting in both directions and a journey time of 1h22, shorter than many UK London commutes


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[cgcenet]

MUCH better Lille - London with several trains at the right times for commuting in both directions and a journey time of 1h22, shorter than many UK London commutes

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Not very practical tho', as there are no fares that are suitable for commuters. There are no season tickets. There is no such thing as an 'open' flexible fare in Standard Class — the nearest thing is the Semi Flexi fare, which has a £30 charge for exhchange and return. And it costs about £300 return, far more than most 9-5 workers earn in a day before deductions!
So the only way to get an affordable fare is by buying non-exchangeable non-refundable tickets for each day of travel. This is hardly practical, as it involves knowing when you intend to get to work and back every day weeks or even months in advance. I very much doubt most office workers know that. No option of deciding at the last minute to stay at work late, or come in late, or go out after work.
It would be workable as a weekly commute (pied-à-terre in London, weekends in Lille), but not daily.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Of course it would be possible and sensible to introduce some form of local service, but some of the current structures would need to be dismantled, and that is currently very difficult to do. These include border, security, fares and track access arrangements.

Indeed. The biggest problem is the security theatre. Plus the fact that international trains cannot carry domestic passengers on the UK side. Also pressure from the UK authorities is forcing Eurostar and the French/Belgian authorities to make it extremely awkward for domestic/intra-Schengen passengers (e..g Brussels–Lille) on Eurostar trains. So I suspect it would be virtually impossible to make a local train service viable.

 

[Clip]

I'm not entirely sure that the demand for such a service is there. How many people want to go from, say, Ashford to Calais, compared to those who want to go from London to Paris or Brussels?

You would be surprised. Remember Kent is not just Ashford, theres plenty of people from further east, say Thant and that, who do indeed nip down to Dover for a booze cruise over to Calais on the ferry and back and maybe if they had a train that would do that for them then they would take it as well as a weekend out and those who dont drive wouldnt have to sit on a coach and do it.

We done it on the ferry from there with some friends the other week and was great fun but alas,one of us had to drive so couldnt enjoy a glass of wine or two till they got back.

 

[cgcenet]

Some time ago I read or heard about a possible idea of a "Local/Metro" type service travelling from certain stations in Kent & Sussex, through the Channel Tunnel to local stations in Northern France

The main proposal is for a Lille–London all-stopper on the high-speed lines and through the CT. This would probably be more financially viable than cross-Channel service that serves mainly local destinations either side.

http://www.rock-project.eu/projects/transmanche-metro/

There would have to be a pre-booking system to ensure that everyone has a seat as you could not really have standing passengers.

That would undermine the concept of it being a 'local' service, for which advance booking is not usually necessary or even possible. It would also make through ticketing with local UK stations difficult, as reservation-compulsory running is not the UK way of doing things (as opposed to France, for TGV). One option would be to have a ferry-style 'control ticket' system for boarding the trains.

But reasons given elsewhere here it isn't likely to happen any time soon, so the question is moot I think. It's a shame because there really ought to be some sort of inter-regional cross-Channel train service. It seems odd that it is possible to travel by train between London and Paris, but not between Ashford and Calais. Also the Channel Tunnel is currently running well below capacity. The cross-Channel link is currently an example of worst practice for local cross-border services.

 

[Gordon]

There would have to be a pre-booking system to ensure that everyone has a seat as you could not really have standing passengers.

The standing passengers thing is age old and hardly relevant.

It dates from the early days of European high speed (i.e. SNCF TGVs from 1981) when it was thought that standing might be an issue at high speeds. This has been proven over time not to be a problem as in practice people stand on TGVs (and German ICEs) all the time when it is busy.


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[Clip]

It seems odd that it is possible to travel by train between London and Paris, but not between Ashford and Calais. .

Yes it is possible to do that. Again, its not really a local service though when you only have 1 station to depart from in Kent.

 

[cgcenet]

Yes it is possible to do that.

But only by double-backing via Ebbsfleet or even London, adding a lot of unnecessary time and distance to your journey. There are no France-bound trains that stop at both Ashford and Calais, and only one a day (or week?) London-bound. And since the fare is the same for cross-channel journeys however far you travel, it's hardly worth the cost.
In a practical sense, it is not possible to travel between Ashford and Calais by train. There would need to be a regular direct service stopping at both stations, with reasonable fares.

Again, its not really a local service though when you only have 1 station to depart from in Kent.

Actually two, if it also stopped at Ebbsfleet. I think that the point of running it to London is to tap into a nascent commuter market (although one wonders how the people of Calais would feel about the town becoming part of the London commuter belt, with the accompanying property price rises and lots of people speaking English on the streets). Like I said, this seems to have more commercial potential than one that serves the towns either side on classic track. Just having the train that stops at both the border stations either side of the Channel would be much better than the situation we have now. It would be an inter-regional service rather than a 'local' one, but people travelling, say, Canterbury to Amiens could change trains and travel the shortest rail route.

 

[Clip]

But only by double-backing via Ebbsfleet or even London, adding a lot of unnecessary time and distance to your journey. There are no France-bound trains that stop at both Ashford and Calais, and only one a day (or week?) London-bound. And since the fare is the same for cross-channel journeys however far you travel, it's hardly worth the cost.
In a practical sense, it is not possible to travel between Ashford and Calais by train. There would need to be a regular direct service stopping at both stations, with reasonable fares.


Actually two, if it also stopped at Ebbsfleet. I think that the point of running it to London is to tap into a nascent commuter market (although one wonders how the people of Calais would feel about the town becoming part of the London commuter belt, with the accompanying property price rises and lots of people speaking English on the streets). Like I said, this seems to have more commercial potential than one that serves the towns either side on classic track. Just having the train that stops at both the border stations either side of the Channel would be much better than the situation we have now. It would be an inter-regional service rather than a 'local' one, but people travelling, say, Canterbury to Amiens could change trains and travel the shortest rail route.

Really? Think you should look at the timetable again as when I went to Brussels the other month it stopped at both Ashford and Calais both there and back.

ETA: And the site will sell you a ticket for it too

 

[cgcenet]

Really? Think you should look at the timetable again as when I went to Brussels the other month it stopped at both Ashford and Calais both there and back.

OK so I was wrong, instead of no trains stopping at both there is one a day (Monday–Friday). And not very conveniently timed either, and expensive for the length of journey. So while it may be technically possible to make that journey, it is not a practical option. That was my point.
Compare with the P&O Dover–Calais ferry, which has frequent crossings throughout the day, and a 'turn up and go' foot passenger fare of around £30.

 

[Oscar]

A local service could be run as a stopping service: London St. Pancras - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille (- Paris/Brussels). It could be overtaken by fast trains at stops where necessary. It could offer walk-up rather than yield managed fares and through ticketing to destinations such as Canterbury, Boulogne and Dunkerque, with well timed connections at Ashford and Calais Fréthun. A service deviating from the main London - Lille route (such as Canterbury - Boulogne) would only be able to serve a limited number of destinations. Frequency is important for a walk-up service and I question whether such as service would be able to run at an high enough frequency to sustain patronage.

 

[edwin_m]

Are there coach services via Eurotunnel that are geared to local journeys?

 

[cgcenet]

Eurolines coach services serve the ports on both sides of the Channel, but there are only two services a day. iDBus does not appear to serve the ports.

 

[Max]

I get the impression that a lot of people do a weekly 'commute' from Lille and Brussels to London - out on Monday morning, back on Friday night (with a rented room or flat in London). I took a peak time train out of St Pancras on a Friday back in November and was surprised to see a lot of the same business people on the 0900 arrival into London on the Monday. I overheard an Italian man speaking about his experience of doing this every week. It's also worth noting that there has recently been a significant uplift in the number of French people living around King's Cross - doesn't take a genius to work out one of the reasons why!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

A local service could be run as a stopping service: London St. Pancras - Stratford - Ebbsfleet - Ashford - Calais - Lille (- Paris/Brussels). It could be overtaken by fast trains at stops where necessary. It could offer walk-up rather than yield managed fares and through ticketing to destinations such as Canterbury, Boulogne and Dunkerque, with well timed connections at Ashford and Calais Fréthun.

Yes, that would be good.

 

[RT4038]

Given the present Immigration and security regime, probably the most likely option would be an Ashford International -Calais Frethun shuttle, with passengers passing through the controls at each end and changing to/from local services. Anything else will require a major change to current procedure and is not visible on the horizon yet.

 

[alwaystouchout]

Can't see it happening whilst we're outside of Schengen.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Such a service might be more practical were the UK to join Schengen, but the fares issue would still need to be sorted. If the fares would be appropriate for a metro-type service, then how would you stop London-Paris passengers splitting at Ashford/Fréthun and taking metro-style trains part of the way?

Would a Chunnel Metro service attract TEN-T funding?

 

[cgcenet]

If the fares would be appropriate for a metro-type service, then how would you stop London-Paris passengers splitting at Ashford/Fréthun and taking metro-style trains part of the way?

More to the point, why should they be stopped from doing this? As a slower-but-cheaper alternative to Eurostar it would be a very sensible way of going between London and Paris. It would force Eurostar to slash its fares, and maybe even to stop pretending to be an airline on rails and admit it's actually a train service! The sensible approach to fares would be to have through fares available between UK and French stations, using the Chunnel Metro and connecting domestic services, priced so that there is no benefit to split-ticketing. A possible obstacle to this would be compulsory-reservation ticketing philosophy that is applied on French TGV trains.

 

[edwin_m]

The fare by any local service on the leg through the Tunnel would presumably have to allow for Eurotunnel's access charges. These would probably put Greenfield-Marsden well in the shade!

 

[anme]

If someone wanted to made a go of this, a market could develop for commuting from Calais or even Lille to London. Completely new fare structures would be needed, though, and as many have pointed out, also new immigration and security arrangements. I don't see much chance of it happening, and perhaps for the people of Calais, it's better that it doesn't...

 

[cgcenet]

If someone wanted to made a go of this, a market could develop for commuting from Calais or even Lille to London. Completely new fare structures would be needed, though, and as many have pointed out, also new immigration and security arrangements.

You missed out the safety regulations, which currently prevent any running of commuter-type train sets through the Channel Tunnel. Plus Eurotunnel's monopoly pricing of track access. Also I suspect that SNCF might not play nicely if the service ran to Lille.

I don't see much chance of it happening, and perhaps for the people of Calais, it's better that it doesn't...

Actually the French seem to be the main supporters of the idea. Perhaps this is not surprising, as it might enable jobless Nord-pas-de-Calais residents to commute to jobs in SE England. Hence the self-parodying Daily Fail article on the proposal in October 2011 about unemployed French people coming to UK through Chunnel on "cut-price trains".

I agree, as things stand it isn't likely to happen, but for me, Kent-based commuters sharing carriage with day-trippers to London from northern France is the way things should be. And it would annoy the hell out of Nigel Farage!

 

[RT4038]

The fare by any local service on the leg through the Tunnel would presumably have to allow for Eurotunnel's access charges. These would probably put Greenfield-Marsden well in the shade!

Quite. They (an Ashford-Frethun shuttle) would probably not be competitive with the P&O foot fare, except that interchange with other rail service would be more convenient than a connecting bus or very long walk at each end. Given the expense of provision, I would not expect the shuttle to run more frequently than every 2hr (1 train?)

Whilst connections at Ashford would not be too bad (because services run at least every hour to everywhere else), the same cannot be said for Frethun, which is served mainly by the Dunkerque-Calais Ville-Boulogne locals at irregular intervals. Getting to Paris would mean an infrequent compulsory reservation TGV or an additional change onto an infrequent TET service at Boulogne - you can bet that none of that would connect up. With these scenarios (expensive undersea fare, relatively expensive French local fares and infrequent SNCF services) I can't see split ticketing producing much benefit over zooming there on a Eurostar, unless price rather than time is the only consideration.