Cross Country 1st class catering problems?

[voyagerdude220]

Removing the shop didn't actually result in many extra seats - most of the space is the large luggage and bike space (the bike space was moved from the driving car to make way for a trolley store). The reason I've seen given for not putting more seats where the shop was (and I have no reason to doubt it) is that due to the way they are constructed it would be very, very difficult to cut another window into the bodyshell at that point. The same applies to removing one of the enormous bogs.

That's interesting, thank you for that.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

That's interesting, thank you for that.

Yes, there's no way of putting a window in the Voyager body shell this side of £m's of spend. The body shell is integral to its strength and the whole thing would need be fully safety validated if such a cut was made: moreover, its ride characteristics on the bogies might also change (the body flexes and vibrates slightly when tootling down the track) so that would need to be checked as well. Given the world is now moving away from big diesels (the 5C 221 has a greater installed horsepower as a Deltic...) to, at min, bi-modes and then emissions-free in some form it's going to be best to get a new design for XC altogether in my view which can address all the issues that have emerged over the past 20 years....

But I wouldn't bet on any kind of buffet window even then... the future is trolleys. The deckspace one needs to set aside for a buffet window is just too expensive...compared with putting in more seats in the first place!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Leisure travellers are much more cost conscious and aren't really the most likely customers.

Not all leisure travellers are cost conscious. I have money, I'm on a good wage, I will happily pay extra for the comfort and amenities of first class. I can't possibly be alone.

And the days of businessmen paying top dollar on company accounts are long gone.

And even in standard class, one of the advantages of travelling by train rather than by car is being able to sit and relax with a coffee or a beer.

The staff cost being £0 vastly changes the economics.

The cabin crew are already there, of course, but the staff cost for a full F&B service is not zero.

I strongly agree, despite the obvious need on their Voyager fleet to increase seating capacity in Standard Class.

Removing the shop theoretically added seats by allowing XC to remove luggage racks elsewhere in the train. As others said, putting seats in would have required significant structural work.

But this was theoretical at best, as the driving carriage needed to accommodate the trolley. And, even more importantly, only a complete imbecile would leave their luggage in a part of the train where a) they couldn't see it and b) was right next to an exit door.

If they'd kept a shop they could have run a full F&B service with one staff member. It's not ideal 1st class passengers having to fetch their own drinks, but better than not having anything.

I know passengers often say they prefer an at-seat service, and they do. But running an on-demand at-seat service is impossible. For me, on-demand is preferable to at-seat.

 

[Wyrleybart]

You might be thinking of the Avanti / Virgin Voyager which has (had? I've not been on it in quite a while) 2 "shop" coaches? One shop was permanently closed with signs pointing at the other one. As you say, perfectly possible to re-form Voyagers (despite previous claims here!)

Of course it is possible to reform voyagers. The 222s have been, some a few times I believe. I think the West Coast 221s had the "shop" car turned round at some point. Something you couldn't do with XC HSTs which have to be a perticularly way round for the electronics to work - as discovered by Neville Hill last year.

It all keeps pointing back to the same old reason - political. Whitehall and the Virgin Rail Group should have been singing from the same hymn sheet back in the late 1990s and the voyagers should have been built in sufficient numbers and with sufficient seats to replace the previous XC rolling stock AND add the inevitable "sparks effect" additional custom. Each voyager should have had a minimum of 350 seats because crewing costs alone shoud tell you sub 200 seat trains are vastly les economical. They didn't and the XC franchises have suffered financially ever since.

Add to that, consideration needs to be directed at how the XC trains are used. Even they could be regarded as long distance "inter city" type trains which theoretically attract the appropriate pricetag, they actually perform commuter roles for a portion of their journeys, particularly heavily loaded at rush hours. As an example, if you were waiting at Wolverhampton for a train to Birmingham which train would you catch ? ditto pax from Leeds to say Sheffield or York ? Should long distance "inter city" type trains be limited stop trains to avoid commuter overcrowding ?

 

[43301]

And, even more importantly, only a complete imbecile would leave their luggage in a part of the train where a) they couldn't see it and b) was right next to an exit door.

True, and it also goes completely against the regular railway exhortation to 'keep your luggage in sight at all times' - it's outside the saloon doors so out of sight most of the time even if sitting near that end of the carriage.

I have seen people sitting in that luggage space on plenty of occasions when the trains have been packed, though!

 

[vlad]

As an example, if you were waiting at Wolverhampton for a train to Birmingham which train would you catch?

Sorry but this is something that really gets on my wick.

Voyagers between Wolverhampton and Birmingham (in both directions) are packed at certain hours of the day due to people travelling between the two cities. I've seen people let the stopper go and wait for the Voyager because it's non-stop and therefore quicker - except is isn't as trains don't overtake on the Stour Valley Line: the quickest train is the first one to leave, whether it stops at every station or it's first stop Wolverhampton on the way up to Manchester. Don't travel on the Voyager and you'll probably have more space as 350s aren't as cramped.

(rant over)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know passengers often say they prefer an at-seat service, and they do. But running an on-demand at-seat service is impossible. For me, on-demand is preferable to at-seat.

In what way is an on demand at seat service impossible?

 

[Tetchytyke]

In what way is an on demand at seat service impossible?

In standard class, with one trolley and one staff member? No chance. None at all. Even pre-Covid I'd often either not see the trolley at all between Newcastle and Leeds on XC, or it would appear 10 minutes before I was due to get off. Much nicer to go to the counter when I want something.

It seems GWR are even worse. At least LNER/Stagecoach had the sense to insist on a buffet counter for their IETs.

Something you couldn't do with XC HSTs which have to be a perticularly way round for the electronics to work - as discovered by Neville Hill last year.

At least the HSTs make sense layout-wise, as the kitchen/trolley storage is in coach B between first class and that random bay of 8 standard class seats.

 

[Czesziafan]

I am not surprised that train catering is confused and confusing. Even before Covid I found XC onboard catering a great disappointment. On at least 3 occasions I travelled First and was offered none of the complimentary service, the staff said they had sold out of everything long before I had boarded at New Street. On other companies the selection has invariably been poor quality, over-priced carpet burgers and the like, and in future I would prefer to take my own food and eat it onboard.

From years back in BR days train catering has always been costly, operationally problematic, and often loss-making. In BR days the services were heavily subsidised, whereas TOC's will be quite ruthless in discarding anything that is either loss making, or which doesn't meet the targeted level of profitability. One also has to bear in mind competition from the large number of food outlets that now exist on most major stations.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I am not surprised that train catering is confused and confusing. Even before Covid I found XC onboard catering a great disappointment. On at least 3 occasions I travelled First and was offered none of the complimentary service, the staff said they had sold out of everything long before I had boarded at New Street. On other companies the selection has invariably been poor quality, over-priced carpet burgers and the like, and in future I would prefer to take my own food and eat it onboard.

From years back in BR days train catering has always been costly, operationally problematic, and often loss-making. In BR days the services were heavily subsidised, whereas TOC's will be quite ruthless in discarding anything that is either loss making, or which doesn't meet the targeted level of profitability. One also has to bear in mind competition from the large number of food outlets that now exist on most major stations.

My only experience in XC First Class was good. The host was attentive and constantly out with the trolley.

I had about 5 sandwiches between Glasgow and Birmingham, but they had sold out of the hot food by Newcastle.

 

[Starmill]

The staff cost being £0 vastly changes the economics.

It's a bit more nuanced than that, but this is also perfectly possible on rail services. Lumo are doing it for example.

 

[Towers]

Not forgetting, of course, that some catering provision is/was due to franchise requirements, rather than for commercial reasons.

Going forwards I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some of it clipped; is a trolley really needed on a journey of say less than two hours, for example, where every station served has an array of catering outlets? And is there a reason why it is needed on shorter distance 'intercity' services but not on some much longer distance regional routes? Lots to consider for the decision makers.

There is of course also the thorny issue of some TOCs providing catering via properly employed and paid internal staff, while others farm it out to a minimum wage agency bod. Hopefully any costing exercise won't just default to a 'cheapest is best' approach.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Not forgetting, of course, that some catering provision is/was due to franchise requirements, rather than for commercial reasons.

Going forwards I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some of it clipped; is a trolley really needed on a journey of say less than two hours, for example, where every station served has an array of catering outlets? And is there a reason why it is needed on shorter distance 'intercity' services but not on some much longer distance regional routes? Lots to consider for the decision makers.

There is of course also the thorny issue of some TOCs providing catering via properly employed and paid internal staff, while others farm it out to a minimum wage agency bod. Hopefully any costing exercise won't just default to a 'cheapest is best' approach.

Scotrail have did similar. The trolley won’t be returning to the Edinburgh to Glasgow services due to the fact it’s only 50 minutes. Anytime I’ve done it, the trolley hasn’t made it from one end to the other in time