Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[222001]

Source?

Just looking through RTT. Example on the NOT-CDF route:

Realtime Trains - Departures from Nottingham

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'll start with what's already known. From Monday 29th November until at least Sunday 5th December there will be no HSTs in use with XC. The situation for 6th December onwards is currently unclear. The replacements are 4 car voyagers, made available by splitting diagrams that currently use voyager pairs.

In addition to the HSTs not being used, for the same period a number of Turbostar services have been cancelled, as well as a single Voyager service on the Reading - Manchester route. The services in question are as follows (Monday - Friday):
05:15 Cambridge - Birmingham New Street
06:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
07:14 Reading - Manchester Piccadilly
07:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
07:37 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
07:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
08:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
08:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
09:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:15 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
09:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
10:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
10:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
11:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
12:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
13:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
14:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
14:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
15:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
16:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
18:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
18:45 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
19:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
19:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
19:50 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
20:22 Birmingham New Street - Cambridge

What remains unclear is exactly what the cause of all this is, but I've heard several suggestions that it's the expiration of the agreement between ASLEF and XC for rest day working on the 28th November. It would be incredibly helpful to establish what the real cause of all this is, given the level of service reductions this'll impose on many people (be that in the form of cancellations or short forms), this certainly deserves media attention, possibly the involvement of politicians (local MPs, not ministers).



An email went out to some staff members. It appears not to have gone out to all.

So it is true. And the 170 routes are equally affected. Shame.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So it is true. And the 170 routes are equally affected. Shame.

If it is indeed a RDW agreement (what is it about Arriva and understaffing?) then they might be back, though.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If it is indeed a RDW agreement (what is it about Arriva and understaffing?) then they might be back, though.

Well quite. But this must, one hopes, mean some services being cut, doubling up of 170s where appropriate to try to fill the capacity shortfall.

Unless XC are going to make slightly more chunky cuts to extremities of their network or a few little cuts here and there, you won’t consequentially release enough 22x.

 

[DanNCL]

If it is indeed a RDW agreement (what is it about Arriva and understaffing?) then they might be back, though.

Well quite. But this must, one hopes, mean some services being cut, doubling up of 170s where appropriate to try to fill the capacity shortfall.

Unless XC are going to make slightly more chunky cuts to extremities of their network or a few little cuts here and there, you won’t consequentially release enough 22x.

At the present time there is zero indication of the HST fleet going off lease.

The voyagers to cover for the HSTs for the next week are being made available by splitting up diagrams that are booked to use pairs. The result will be 6 short formed diagrams each day - the 3 HST diagrams running as 4 car vice 7 car, and 3 currently unclear voyager diagrams running as 4 or 5 car vice 8 or 9 car.

 

[Dave91131]

Mods - perhaps the thread should be re-titled something like "Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards"?

Looking at the Birmingham - Stansted route in particular, with 2 consecutive circuits cancelled some stations will be left without a service in each direction for 3 hours at separate times.

A total disgrace, and fantastic way of yet again pushing passengers away from the railway permanently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mods - perhaps the thread should be re-titled something like "Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards"?

The original poster can change it.

 

[greyman42]

Is this then a suggestion that XC are never going to increase service back to what it was, e.g. Manchester-Birmingham which really does justify more than hourly? You probably can resource the reduced service properly using Voyagers, but not the full service.

Would this also mean that we are not going to see the Newcastle- South east services re-introduced, which would be terrible considering the amount of time you have to wait to change at New Street?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Would this also mean that we are not going to see the Newcastle- South east services re-introduced, which would be terrible considering the amount of time you have to wait to change at New Street?

Well as it was you had a very limited number of “Newcastle starters”, didn’t you? They only seemed to run to Banbury.

One assumes the plan is 8 and 9 car hourly trunk route services Bournemouth - Manchester and Plymouth - Edinburgh. Any small numbers of peak extras can / should then be slotted in on top just to make sure everything possible runs.

 

[221129]

One assumes the plan is 8 and 9 car hourly trunk route services Bournemouth - Manchester and Plymouth - Edinburgh. Any small numbers of peak extras can / should then be slotted in on top just to make sure everything possible runs.

That hasn't been happening since before May last year... its hourly Bristol-Newcastle and Manchester-Reading. Lots of 2 hour gaps for the rest of the network..

 

[DorkingMain]

Surprised the company have not gone hell for leather on trying to renew the RDW (rest day working) agreement. But then no doubt the DfT pulling the purse strings doesn't help.

 

[londonmidland]

I assume the 170s will be strengthened to compensate for the cancelled services?

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't mourn the HSTs in and of themselves, just the capacity they provide. They really should stay until the Avanti 221s are available to replace them.

I would. I find their interior infinately preferable to the voyager one.

Well let’s face it, the HSTs aren’t cheap to run so could be true if the funding is being cut.

I heard that the voyagers were the most fuel hungry of the fleet, and if you have to double them up, that's twice the staff.

I'll start with what's already known. From Monday 29th November until at least Sunday 5th December there will be no HSTs in use with XC. The situation for 6th December onwards is currently unclear. The replacements are 4 car voyagers, made available by splitting diagrams that currently use voyager pairs.

In addition to the HSTs not being used, for the same period a number of Turbostar services have been cancelled, as well as a single Voyager service on the Reading - Manchester route. The services in question are as follows (Monday - Friday):
05:15 Cambridge - Birmingham New Street
06:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
07:14 Reading - Manchester Piccadilly
07:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
07:37 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
07:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
08:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
08:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
09:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:15 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
09:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
10:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
10:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
11:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
12:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
13:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
14:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
14:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
15:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
16:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
18:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
18:45 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
19:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
19:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
19:50 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
20:22 Birmingham New Street - Cambridge

What remains unclear is exactly what the cause of all this is, but I've heard several suggestions that it's the expiration of the agreement between ASLEF and XC for rest day working on the 28th November. It would be incredibly helpful to establish what the real cause of all this is, given the level of service reductions this'll impose on many people (be that in the form of cancellations or short forms), this certainly deserves media attention, possibly the involvement of politicians (local MPs, not ministers).



An email went out to some staff members. It appears not to have gone out to all.

This has all the hallmarks of a damaging fiasco.

 

[221129]

I assume the 170s will be strengthened to compensate for the cancelled services?

No chance.

 

[Randomer]

Unless I'm missing something obvious how is the use of HST linked to the expiry of the RDW agreement?

Is it that XC rely on drivers who sign HST working rest days because not all drivers do?

 

[JonathanH]

I assume the 170s will be strengthened to compensate for the cancelled services?

Not possible - most are now three car units. A pair of three car units can't go to Stansted or stop at all the stations on the XC network.

Unless I'm missing something obvious how is the use of HST linked to the expiry of the RDW agreement?

Is it that XC rely on drivers who sign HST working rest days because not all drivers do?

Voyagers are standard traction for all relevant XC traincrew and only a subset know HSTs. By eliminating HST use, the risk of the traincrew not being able to cover their rostered working is reduced. (In effect, it makes it easier to roster traincrew in the light of fewer being available.)

 

[Towers]

No wonder so many shout that XC really is the absolute pits of intercity travel. Presumably this nonsense is to save what is, in the grand scheme of things, a pretty trivial sum on the cost of using the HST fleet for a short period?

 

[TheBigD]

I'll start with what's already known. From Monday 29th November until at least Sunday 5th December there will be no HSTs in use with XC. The situation for 6th December onwards is currently unclear. The replacements are 4 car voyagers, made available by splitting diagrams that currently use voyager pairs.

In addition to the HSTs not being used, for the same period a number of Turbostar services have been cancelled, as well as a single Voyager service on the Reading - Manchester route. The services in question are as follows (Monday - Friday):
05:15 Cambridge - Birmingham New Street
06:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
07:14 Reading - Manchester Piccadilly
07:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
07:37 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
07:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
08:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
08:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
09:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
09:15 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
09:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
10:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
10:22 Birmingham New Street - Stansted Airport
11:07 Nottingham - Cardiff Central
12:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
13:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
14:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
14:45 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
15:27 Stansted Airport - Birmingham New Street
16:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:41 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
17:52 Birmingham New Street - Leicester
18:19 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
18:45 Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
19:12 Birmingham New Street - Nottingham
19:18 Leicester - Birmingham New Street
19:50 Cardiff Central - Nottingham
20:22 Birmingham New Street - Cambridge

So a 3 hour gap on the Stansted run and a 4 hour gap on the Brum-Cardiff run...

 

[DanNCL]

Unless I'm missing something obvious how is the use of HST linked to the expiry of the RDW agreement?

Is it that XC rely on drivers who sign HST working rest days because not all drivers do?

They won't be able to guarantee they'll have crews in the correct places on shift to cover the HST diagrams at any given time without a rest day working agreement.

It's poor, as they should really have enough staff so that they can cover this without relying on rest day working. LNER would likely have this same issue with the Mark 4 sets if, heaven forbid, a similar issue were to pop up there.

No wonder so many shout that XC really is the absolute pits of intercity travel. Presumably this nonsense is to save what is, in the grand scheme of things, a pretty trivial sum on the cost of using the HST fleet for a short period?

This has nothing to do with money. It's to do with a lack of staff, caused by the end of a rest day working agreement on Sunday.

 

[PG]

This has nothing to do with money. It's to do with a lack of staff, caused by the end of a rest day working agreement on Sunday.

The worry is that the longer this continues (lack of RDW agreement) that it could become the de facto norm with the purse strings then permanently tightened?

 

[Kettledrum]

As for Arriva XC not having enough drivers.........how long have they had the contract? Ample time to train the drivers and sort out rosters so the company are not too reliant on rest day working.

 

[JamesT]

Well as it was you had a very limited number of “Newcastle starters”, didn’t you? They only seemed to run to Banbury.

One assumes the plan is 8 and 9 car hourly trunk route services Bournemouth - Manchester and Plymouth - Edinburgh. Any small numbers of peak extras can / should then be slotted in on top just to make sure everything possible runs.

They're only running to Banbury now. But Pre-Covid it was hourly Reading-Newcastle (with half extended to Southampton) along with the hourly Bournemouth-Manchester.
My expectation would have been that when the pandemic is declared over XC would return to something similar. Although franchising is now dead, I assume that service was part of the franchise specification so again my expectation would be there would be some sort of public process for XC to radically reshape their service with an opportunity for the public to object.

 

[irish_rail]

This is all XCs making. A driver at GWR Plymouth with 10 years or so of HST driving experience which was current thanks to 2+4s moved over to XC recently and was told he had to sign off HSTs.

 

[dk1]

Unless I'm missing something obvious how is the use of HST linked to the expiry of the RDW agreement?

Is it that XC rely on drivers who sign HST working rest days because not all drivers do?

If the RDW agreement is not being renewed there is a chance good will will be in very short supply & drivers will refuse to come off-roster or help to cover HST turns making it difficult to diagram them.

 

[507020]

This is all XCs making. A driver at GWR Plymouth with 10 years or so of HST driving experience which was current thanks to 2+4s moved over to XC recently and was told he had to sign off HSTs.

What do they mean he had to? How can they force him to forget how to drive a HST? Obviously a driver with current knowledge of HSTs over what are also XC routes is an asset to XC so why are they creating problems for themselves that only cause the passengers to suffer?

 

[JonathanH]

What do they mean he had to? How can they force him to forget how to drive a HST?

It seems quite straightforward. From what has been said, in his new job at XC, he isn't authorised to drive HSTs. (Clearly he would still know how to but that is a different thing.)

 

[DorkingMain]

As for Arriva XC not having enough drivers.........how long have they had the contract? Ample time to train the drivers and sort out rosters so the company are not too reliant on rest day working.

Companies deliberately rely on rest day working because the enhanced rates are still cheaper than hiring loads of staff to sit spare.

 

[JonathanH]

Companies deliberately rely on rest day working because the enhanced rates are still cheaper than hiring loads of staff to sit spare.

It suits the unions and staff as well though.

 

[507020]

It seems quite straightforward. From what has been said, in his new job at XC, he isn't authorised to drive HSTs. (Clearly he would still know how to but that is a different thing.)

But unless the Arriva management is truly delusional, why wouldn’t they authorise a driver who is quite capable and knowledgeable in driving HSTs to do so when they require drivers with this very skill?

 

[DanNCL]

It seems quite straightforward. From what has been said, in his new job at XC, he isn't authorised to drive HSTs. (Clearly he would still know how to but that is a different thing.)

But unless the Arriva management is truly delusional, why wouldn’t they authorise a driver who is quite capable and knowledgeable in driving HSTs to do so when they require drivers with this very skill?

XC's HST powercars have quite a few differences compared to the GWR ones, including a completely different speedometer and associated equipment, as the GWR ones are fitted with ATP whereas the XC ones aren't. Entirely possible that this could in the eyes of XC render it to require a conversion course.