Cross Country Service Reductions and Alterations, 28-11-2021 onwards

[Bald Rick]

The DFT have not instructed Arriva to make these changes. Arriva have made these changes, of their own accord, as they’ve failed to ensure they’ve got enough staff.

That depends on your definition of ‘instructed’. They will certainly have agreed to them. They could have agreed to something else.

The DFT have to sign off long term timetable changes. The DFT generally don’t sign off changes like this for industrial disputes, that goes against the TOC.

This isn’t an industrial dispute, but nevertheless, under the current contracts, DfT ‘sign off’ (agree to) any planned service change outside the normal operation of the railway.

 

[XAM2175]

With GBR it is 1 organisation now!

Except that it isn't, yet.

 

[ashworth]

But if you are not local and standing on a platform waiting for your connection why on earth should you be expected to wander off into the town instead to look for a bus stop - and then pay again for a journey you already have a through ticket for?

Trains are not the cheapest way to travel. People pay the premium to get timetabled services and connections (and trust "the railway" to deliver. It is one organisation as far as they are concerned.) With GBR it is 1 organisation now!
There is absolutely no excuse for suggesting that people should go looking for a bus when they have a through railway tickets and should have had trains to deliver them when they expected to arrive.

Completely agree. A few weeks ago I was travelling back from a few days in Devon. The XC train from Exeter to Derby took just over 3 hours. Then it was another 2 and a half hours before I eventually got home to my village in Nottinghamshire which is not much more than 20 miles from Derby! The reason for this were the EMR reduced timetables. I had to wait 25 minutes for a connection at Derby for Nottingham and then that just missed the connection in Nottingham to Mansfield. As EMR are only currently running hourly on the Robin Hood Line that resulted in another wait of almost one hour in Nottingham. XC reduced services between Derby and Nottingham will just add to the current inconvenient situation caused by already nearly 6 months of EMR reduced services. I do also agree that other parts of the XC network will also suffer.

Both at Derby and Nottingham I could have abandoned my rail journey and completed my journey by bus. Why should I need to pay another £7 for a bus ticket when I have already paid for the train? Also Derby bus station and Nottingham Victoria bus station are not close by, and no fun getting to when you have luggage.

 

[Watershed]

Arriva should know what the procedure is for getting the money back from the DFT and should be perusing it. That procedure does not involve chopping services because the DFT haven’t yet paid, they have to stump up the money themselves at claim it back from the DFT later.

If the DfT tells Arriva it won't be paying for something, you can bet your bottom dollar they won't be spending it.

The DFT have not instructed Arriva to make these changes. Arriva have made these changes, of their own accord, as they’ve failed to ensure they’ve got enough staff.

The DFT have to sign off long term timetable changes. The DFT generally don’t sign off changes like this for industrial disputes, that goes against the TOC.

I admire your confidence.

 

[Mintona]

Arriva should know what the procedure is for getting the money back from the DFT and should be perusing it. That procedure does not involve chopping services because the DFT haven’t yet paid, they have to stump up the money themselves at claim it back from the DFT later.


The DFT have not instructed Arriva to make these changes. Arriva have made these changes, of their own accord, as they’ve failed to ensure they’ve got enough staff.

The DFT have to sign off long term timetable changes. The DFT generally don’t sign off changes like this for industrial disputes, that goes against the TOC.

I don’t think that’s how the railway works anymore.

 

[Kettledrum]

I don’t think that’s how the railway works anymore.

I don't think the XC railway currently "works" at all

 

[dciuk]

So can we assume the 2 +7 HSTs to and from Plymouth will be replaced by at least an 8 car voyager then???....

I think it has already been mentioned that they are being replaced by a 4 car voyager, meaning they are replacing their highest capacity trains with their lowest capacity (intercity) trains

 

[warwickshire]

Also for the record cross country are a voyager down already 1m58 1615 reading to Manchester Piccadilly is in difficulty and has failed on the approach to gibbet Hill Junction the voyager has a smashed windscreen and has lost air. By hitting a tree .
A friend off mine is on board this and it's not looking good.
So already next week cross country have a voyager down ..

 

[Dave91131]

Also for the record cross country are a voyager down already 1m58 1615 reading to Manchester Piccadilly is in difficulty and has failed on the approach to gibbet Hill Junction the voyager has a smashed windscreen and has lost air. By hitting a tree .
A friend off mine is on board this and it's not looking good.
So already next week cross country have a voyager down ..

A few more cancellations probably won't be noticed.

 

[Jimini]

Also for the record cross country are a voyager down already 1m58 1615 reading to Manchester Piccadilly is in difficulty and has failed on the approach to gibbet Hill Junction the voyager has a smashed windscreen and has lost air. By hitting a tree .
A friend off mine is on board this and it's not looking good.
So already next week cross country have a voyager down ..

Thought it was a bit quiet out there tonight (I'm at our Coventry place at the mo, and the Leamington > Coventry line passes behind the houses on the opposite side of the road to us).

 

[Jimini]

Also for the record cross country are a voyager down already 1m58 1615 reading to Manchester Piccadilly is in difficulty and has failed on the approach to gibbet Hill Junction the voyager has a smashed windscreen and has lost air. By hitting a tree .
A friend off mine is on board this and it's not looking good.
So already next week cross country have a voyager down ..

Posted on the other XC thread.. doesn't look great.

 

[dereksingh291]

Posted on the other XC thread.. doesn't look great.

That damage looks really bad, needs a new cab.

 

[irish_rail]

I think it has already been mentioned that they are being replaced by a 4 car voyager, meaning they are replacing their highest capacity trains with their lowest capacity (intercity) trains

Great. So folks making proper long distance journeys of 2 hours or more are going to stand. I have travelled on 4 car voyagers substituting for the HSTs before (quite recently actually) and it was full and standing. Trouble is. This wasn't a Friday or weekend, it was midweek, and November. The trains are too busy, and a 4 car voyager just won't do. They cannot expect people to routinely stand for long distances of several hours surely???!!!

 

[DorkingMain]

Staff are - they are not working in the same numbers as they have in the past. It really doesn’t matter what the union says - it’s just because it’s the railway, and the staff know there are no long term consequences in refusing to work even if that means huge numbers of paying customers are inconvenienced or even don‘t use the railway. If it was true private industry staff would work because they would know the consequence would be massive risk to the viability of the business (and staff jobs).

"Refusing to work"

Why should there be consequences to not wanting to work on your days off? If you aren't contracted to work a particular day, and you do, you're doing your employer a favour.

 

[Killingworth]

Having worked in a business that was approaching total collapse I empathise with employees when it can only be kept going by masses of voluntary overtime. At one critical time unlimited overtime was offered 07.00 - 23.00, 7 days a week. Of course that couldn't last. A small number actually did those full hours. After a week their output was seen to be of low value and sometimes dangerous to the business because they were making too many mistakes due to exhaustion. It wasn't stopped by management but by the employees themselves seeing the danger. Masses of new recruits eventually came in causing different problems!

Thankfully legislation and the rail unions try not to allow that sort of practice today. Relying on modest amounts of overtime and rest day working by genuine agreement is one thing, but demanding it too often is counter productive, as many employers discover. (The NHS and a few other employers may be coming to mind!) I know from our experience that once you lose the goodwill of your employees it's very hard to get it back. Even the willing horses eventually say no more. Unions thrive on such situations.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Short formed long-distance CrossCountry trains have already started today from looking at XC's JourneyCheck - I hope the social media team, who have been good to me, don't get abuse from passengers!

How will they explain to passengers that their train is short-formed because of Rest Day Working? I cannot see passengers taking that reason lightly.

Yes there maybe a fault with 1 or 2 of the trains (I know one Voyager was damaged yesterday) but we know most are not because of faults.

 

[DanNCL]

At the present time no HSTs are allocated. With the exception of 1E75 18:27 Plymouth - Leeds (which is currently unallocated) all booked HST workings are being coveted by Voyagers today.

 

[Andy Pacer]

So can we assume the 2 +7 HSTs to and from Plymouth will be replaced by at least an 8 car voyager then???....

See post #110

 

[yorksrob]

Having worked in a business that was approaching total collapse I empathise with employees when it can only be kept going by masses of voluntary overtime. At one critical time unlimited overtime was offered 07.00 - 23.00, 7 days a week. Of course that couldn't last. A small number actually did those full hours. After a week their output was seen to be of low value and sometimes dangerous to the business because they were making too many mistakes due to exhaustion. It wasn't stopped by management but by the employees themselves seeing the danger. Masses of new recruits eventually came in causing different problems!

Thankfully legislation and the rail unions try not to allow that sort of practice today. Relying on modest amounts of overtime and rest day working by genuine agreement is one thing, but demanding it too often is counter productive, as many employers discover. (The NHS and a few other employers may be coming to mind!) I know from our experience that once you lose the goodwill of your employees it's very hard to get it back. Even the willing horses eventually say no more. Unions thrive on such situations.

I couldn't agree more. Time off is precious and overtime shouldn't be seen as a way to "not have to employ as many staff" in any industry. It sounds as though there is a broader contractual issue within the railway industry that needs resolving.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I couldn't agree more. Time off is precious and overtime shouldn't be seen as a way to "not have to employ as many staff" in any industry. It sounds as though there is a broader contractual issue within the railway industry that needs resolving.

I agree. In many industries the people who just turn up and do their contracted hours are still seen as "unhelpful" whereas if everyone turned up and did what they should then the businesses wouldn't have to be so reliant on overtime.

 

[geoffk]

From the XC website this morning in case anyone has not seen it.

Monday 29 November onwards
Due to train crew availability, there will be disruption to our services from Monday 29 November until further notice. Services may start later or finish earlier than originally planned, and we have also made a select number of cancellations throughout the day in order to provide a robust timetable. Some of our services may also be formed of fewer carriages than usual and will therefore be busier.

We are doing everything we can to minimise disruption, and we have removed the trains that will not run between Monday 29 November and Saturday 04 December from our timetable, however short notice alterations may apply. We recommend that you check your journey now and again before travelling via National Rail Enquiries.

We’re sorry for any inconvenience that this causes to your journey. We’re here to help you. Please see our FAQs below for refunds, how to alter your ticket if you wish to travel at another time and which other operators are accepting our tickets if our train has been cancelled or removed from the timetable.

 

[Falcon1200]

Thankfully legislation and the rail unions try not to allow that sort of practice today. Relying on modest amounts of overtime and rest day working by genuine agreement is one thing, but demanding it too often is counter productive, as many employers discover.

Time off is precious and overtime shouldn't be seen as a way to "not have to employ as many staff" in any industry. It sounds as though there is a broader contractual issue within the railway industry that needs resolving.

I agree absolutely with both points, in fact one of the reasons I decided to retire some years ago now was ongoing staff shortages due to vacancies not being filled in anticipation of a reorganisation - Which never happened. Staff had to work overtime to keep the job going, or do the work of two posts if a shift could not be covered - And sometimes both !

What is the situation with XC, have they really got into a position where their Traincrew establishment, even with all posts filled, is insufficient to cover their booked timetable - Which seems unlikely given the Covid service reductions - Or are there other factors in play ?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Great. So folks making proper long distance journeys of 2 hours or more are going to stand. I have travelled on 4 car voyagers substituting for the HSTs before (quite recently actually) and it was full and standing. Trouble is. This wasn't a Friday or weekend, it was midweek, and November. The trains are too busy, and a 4 car voyager just won't do. They cannot expect people to routinely stand for long distances of several hours surely???!!!

But surely a 4 car train is better than a potential 0 car train (ie train cancelled) if they can’t provide with any surety an HST driver in the Birmingham area?

I don’t think anyone will agree these changes are ideal but they are making the best of a bad situation.

 

[Jimini]

Looks like the last southbound service from Manchester Piccadilly will now be at 1827 instead of 2027 (to Reading), if I'm reading it correctly. That's a bit rubbish!

 

[vdriud]

In your world how many months/years is it acceptable to be phoned to work every day off every week before you're permitted to decline then?

I can only speak for myself but if I don't get a call from rosters asking me to either work my days off I've not made available to work or change my shifts outside my contract of employment it's unusual.

In fact this week I've had 4 such calls for separate occasions - 1 to work my rest days and 3 to change my shifts at short notice to something that my contract says I don't have to do.

I get paid less than a train driver but if I have to deliver a project and work late/weekends (unpaid) i do what I have to do to get it over the line.

The amount drivers are paid I would expect you to be highly flexible and go the extra mile at all times.

You guys need to get in the real world!

 

[The Planner]

I get paid less than a train driver but if I have to deliver a project and work late/weekends (unpaid) i do what I have to do to get it over the line.

The amount drivers are paid I would expect you to be highly flexible and go the extra mile at all times.

You guys need to get in the real world!

Clearly you want to light the blue touch paper with that, but at the end of the day if that is what your contract says then you knew that when you signed it. Much like I knew I wouldn't be getting free travel like people with more years or my colleagues at TOCs. You can add examples ad infinitum.

 

[vdriud]

Clearly you want to light the blue touch paper with that, but at the end of the day if that is what your contract says then you knew that when you signed it. Much like I knew I wouldn't be getting free travel like people with more years or my colleagues at TOCs. You can add examples ad infinitum.

That's not what my contract says its how most of us in senior roles in public and private sectors are expected to work. If you have to work late to finish off important work or show flexibility that's what you do. It's called earning your money.

To hear drivers being paid £60k per annum plus moaning about having to be flexible falls on deaf ears with most of the population.

As long as your not being asked to break the law in regards hours driving/rest periods what is the problem.

Bus drivers on £22k a year have to be more flexible. Its wrong. And most passengers are fed up of this 1970s attitude shown by rail staff.

Why should we all suffer because staff being very well paid are refusing to be flexible. Culture change needed.

 

[LowLevel]

I get paid less than a train driver but if I have to deliver a project and work late/weekends (unpaid) i do what I have to do to get it over the line.

The amount drivers are paid I would expect you to be highly flexible and go the extra mile at all times.

You guys need to get in the real world!

I'm a guard and get paid (much) less than a train driver but the point is still the same.

There is no such thing as doing extra work from time to time to complete a project if you're traincrew.

Going the extra mile is being stuck out in the cold on a train with no facilities - my late finish record is between 4 and 5 hours. I will also happily cover extra duties at the end of my own if things are desperate. I'm already there and not having to rearrange my life to compensate for someone else's failings, however they may have occurred.

You can't however pop in to work for a bit to drive or guard a train and you can't do it from home.

"Sorry folks, going to cancel my day off again to go to work for 9 hours plus an hours commute" only wears for so long and it's been going on for a long time.

Your contractual obligations are what you expect and anticipate from your line of work. They differ from the practicalities of operating a transport vehicle.

Next week I've a Christmas meal planned with my friends. Presumably if rosters ring up with 48 hours notice as they often do to say they're short of guards, any chance I can come in for 9 hours work you'd expect me to cancel my plans and do it.

 

[Peterthegreat]

That's not what my contract says its how most of us in senior roles in public and private sectors are expected to work. If you have to work late to finish off important work or show flexibility that's what you do. It's called earning your money.

To hear drivers being paid £60k per annum plus moaning about having to be flexible falls on deaf ears with most of the population.

As long as your not being asked to break the law in regards hours driving/rest periods what is the problem.

Bus drivers on £22k a year have to be more flexible. Its wrong. And most passengers are fed up of this 1970s attitude shown by rail staff.

Why should we all suffer because staff being very well paid are refusing to be flexible. Culture change needed.

Most train crew are flexible and are prepared to work extra to keep the job moving. However there is a massive difference between that and working every rest day.

 

[vdriud]

I'm a guard and get paid (much) less than a train driver but the point is still the same.

There is no such thing as doing extra work from time to time to complete a project if you're traincrew.

Going the extra mile is being stuck out in the cold on a train with no facilities - my late finish record is between 4 and 5 hours. I will also happily cover extra duties at the end of my own if things are desperate. I'm already there and not having to rearrange my life to compensate for someone else's failings, however they may have occurred.

You can't however pop in to work for a bit to drive or guard a train and you can't do it from home.

"Sorry folks, going to cancel my day off again to go to work for 9 hours plus an hours commute" only wears for so long and it's been going on for a long time.

Your contractual obligations are what you expect and anticipate from your line of work. They differ from the practicalities of operating a transport vehicle.

Next week I've a Christmas meal planned with my friends. Presumably if rosters ring up with 48 hours notice as they often do to say they're short of guards, any chance I can come in for 9 hours work you'd expect me to cancel my plans and do it.

I appreciate your points being made but what concerns me are comments from drivers stating that refuse to be flexible by moving shifts etc. That's part of the job you are expected to do. Deal with it, the rest if us have to.

Most train crew are flexible and are prepared to work extra to keep the job moving. However there is a massive difference between that and working every rest day.

Are drivers who work rest days then offered an extra day off the next week or are they literally expected to work 7 days a week 31 days a month?