Cross Country to operate Leeds-Glasgow via Settle services using HSTs?

[Ianno87]

It seems very unrealistic. Is this just a plan to justify the additional rolling stock for XC?

There's surely a whole heap of better ideas than this!

 

[greatvoyager]

More like asking what to do with HSTs that have been PRM modified and have a few years more life in them IMO.

Certainly seems that way.

There's surely a whole heap of better ideas than this!

There has to be, this is such a random idea.

 

[daodao]

There's surely a whole heap of better ideas than this!

Restoration of a through express service from Leeds to Glasgow via a relatively direct route is a good idea, and it needs to be run by an inter-city TOC, but using modern inter-city type rolling stock rather than clapped out IC125s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Restoration of a through express service from Leeds to Glasgow via a relatively direct route is a good idea, and it needs to be run by an inter-city TOC, but using modern inter-city type rolling stock rather than clapped out IC125s.

How long until they could have 222s? Big windows...

 

[trebor79]

The line speed is currently 60 mph from Skipton Northwards, but I'm informed by sources within Network Rail that the line is fit for 80 mph from Hellifield to Kirkby Thore and 75 mph from there to Carlisle. The 1997 scheme installing AWS and colour light distant signals was designed for these speeds and only fairly minor track and bridge works would be needed to implement the higher speeds.

More seriously, I do think there's merit in at least considering the idea; it's not the daftest proposal ever imagined. And given today's big announcement, anything might be possible!

As the freight flows have dwindled to very little, if there's only relatively minor works needed to increase the line speed then it would make sense to do that work and increase passenger capacity.
I did actually use the line yesterday as part of a "real" journey from the North West to East Anglia, quite by accident. Even a relatively modest speed increase to 75mph would make a significant different to a no or limited stop service as part of a longer distance route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 May 2021 ==

I always found it rather bleak for my taste.

The bleakness is part of the appeal for me... if the weather is stormy it makes the rugged scenery all the more dramatic. No accounting for taste I suppose!

Traversing it yesterday I found it was impressively bleak, but also with some nice views down valleys.
The thought "What a bonkers place to build a railway!" popped into my head, along with an awesome respect that it was all surveyed and designed with basic equipment and paper and built entirely by hand. Conditions camped out at the various major work sites must have been pretty horrific, even by the standards of the day.

 

[Halifaxlad]

It seems very unrealistic. Is this just a plan to justify the additional rolling stock for XC?

More like asking what to do with HSTs that have been PRM modified and have a few years more life in them IMO.

Or maybe its just about giving Leeds a direct connection to Scotlands second largest city without having to go via Edinburgh!

 

[Bald Rick]

Or maybe its just about giving Leeds a direct connection to Scotlands second largest city without having to go via Edinburgh!

Seems a bit wasteful. Leeds to Scotland isn’t a big market, so serving both the largest cities with one service seems to me to be an efficient use of resources.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Seems a bit wasteful. Leeds to Scotland isn’t a big market, so serving both the largest cities with one service seems to me to be an efficient use of resources.

They're seems to be a thing with direct services, when Harrogate and Middlesborough recieved a direct London service this was branded to be a 'Game Changer', don't forget Harrogate already has a frequent service to Leeds that already had a half hourly service to London.

Im certainly not saying that it would be a Game Changer in any sense but I think freeing up capacity on existing service via Edinburgh would be a good thing.

 

[Bald Rick]

They're seems to be a thing with direct services, when Harrogate and Middlesborough recieved a direct London service this was branded to be a 'Game Changer', don't forget Harrogate already has a frequent service to Leeds that already had a half hourly service to London.

Im certainly not saying that it would be a Game Changer in any sense but I think freeing up capacity on existing service via Edinburgh would be a good thing.

They already are direct services (or at least are in normal times).

I’d be willing to bet the average number of passengers travelling from Leeds to Glasgow on each train is in single figures - seems an awful lot of money to spend on very little extra capacity on the existing services, when having the voyagers from Avanti will already have provided loads more extra capacity.

 

[HSTEd]

Or maybe its just about giving Leeds a direct connection to Scotlands second largest city without having to go via Edinburgh!

Is going via Edinburgh such an imposition?

I know it's posh, bus it that bad?

 

[Wolfie]

Which Cross Country (or any other TOC) don’t pay.



The new Wolverhampton is better. And besides, the best thing about changing trains at Wolves is the Great Western next door. But beware if you are drinking a pint every 30 mins and have a train every thirty minutes, and get out of sync.

Agreed on both respects. Strangely enough l normally use Wolvo quite a lot.... On my way to the Golden Palace that is Molineux....

 

[daodao]

Is going via Edinburgh such an imposition?

I know it's posh, bus it that bad?

Travelling to Glasgow via Edinburgh from the West Riding is a roundabout route. A direct express service from Leeds to Glasgow Central via Carlisle should be able to cut 30-45 minutes off the journey time, which could be reduced to 3.5 hours with stops just at Skipton, Carlisle and Motherwell.

 

[HSTEd]

Travelling to Glasgow via Edinburgh from the West Riding is a roundabout route. A direct express service from Leeds to Glasgow Central via Carlisle should be able to cut 30-45 minutes off the journey time, which could be reduced to 3.5 hours with stops just at Skipton, Carlisle and Motherwell.

In return for those 30 minutes, you abandon almost all the intermediate traffic?
Are there going to be enough end to end passengers to fill a HST?

 

[daodao]

In return for those 30 minutes, you abandon almost all the intermediate traffic?
Are there going to be enough end to end passengers to fill a HST?

There should still be trains from to Edinburgh via Newcastle run from Leeds by TPE, and from Sheffield by XC. Selected ECML trains could extend to Glasgow to provide a regular through service from Peterborough/Doncaster/York and NE England.

I would start with 3 trains per day (2 on Sundays), with the hope of increasing the frequency to 2-hourly. Some/all trains could run to/from Sheffield. 5 coaches (rather than an IC125) should provide sufficient capacity. Greater Manchester has a 2-hourly fast service to Glasgow, so there should be sufficient demand for a fast service from the West Riding.

 

[Aictos]

If there is spare rolling stock to resource this route then surely they should be used on existing XC services not wasted on new routes that isn't needed.

 

[43096]

Is going via Edinburgh such an imposition?

I know it's posh, bus it that bad?

It is if you’re on a Voyager...

Having done Glasgow-Leeds on just such a contraption for work, it was one of the worst journeys I’ve made by train. Fortunately the following day’s return to London was altogether better on a Mark 4 set.

 

[Ianno87]

Is going via Edinburgh such an imposition?

I know it's posh, bus it that bad?

It is if you’re on a Voyager...

Having done Glasgow-Leeds on just such a contraption for work, it was one of the worst journeys I’ve made by train. Fortunately the following day’s return to London was altogether better on a Mark 4 set.

So the solution is to improve the stock, not introduce an entirely new service.

 

[Halifaxlad]

They already are direct services (or at least are in normal times

Maybe it is also intended to split the service so that the service up the East Coast heads further up into the North East, such as to Dundee on a more frequent service pattern rather than twice a day!

 

[Wolfie]

It is if you’re on a Voyager...

Having done Glasgow-Leeds on just such a contraption for work, it was one of the worst journeys I’ve made by train. Fortunately the following day’s return to London was altogether better on a Mark 4 set.

Despite enthusiast whinges the reality is that over the years millions of ordinary passengers have made perfectly acceptable journeys on Voyagers. You won't be getting loco hauled stock back (the TPE Mk5 saga reinforces that), and indeed HSTs are no long-term solution - green they aren't, so really need to deal with that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite enthusiast whinges the reality is that over the years millions of ordinary passengers have made perfectly acceptable journeys on Voyagers. You won't be getting loco hauled stock back (the TPE Mk5 saga reinforces that), and indeed HSTs are no long-term solution - green they aren't, so really need to deal with that.

Voyagers aren't green either - if they aren't worse than HSTs they are tucked in just behind. The future for XC has to either be bi-mode or being split up so EMUs and slower, more environmentally friendly DMUs can operate the relevant bits.

The TPE Mk5 saga is not a fault with LHCS, it's a fault with cheap and nasty LHCS that (as an aside) isn't really LHCS anyway, it's more like a single-ended 4-TC* or a Stadler FLIRT with the power module at the end instead of in the middle. With modern-generation units the loss of depot-reformability is a big loss - even 15x were completely independent vehicles.

Voyagers would be great for a service over the S&C, having said all that - the windows are massive. I don't think people would hate them as much if they would, once more vehicles are available with the ex-Avanti units and potentially the 222s, reform to a lower density interior with extra luggage space. "Coach D" on the Avanti units is really a different world.

* Or a 442 with a 73 on the end. Look, I got them in!

 

[Failed Unit]

Voyagers aren't green either - if they aren't worse than HSTs they are tucked in just behind. The future for XC has to either be bi-mode or being split up so EMUs and slower, more environmentally friendly DMUs can operate the relevant bits.

The TPE Mk5 saga is not a fault with LHCS, it's a fault with cheap and nasty LHCS that (as an aside) isn't really LHCS anyway, it's more like a single-ended 4-TC* or a Stadler FLIRT with the power module at the end instead of in the middle. With modern-generation units the loss of depot-reformability is a big loss - even 15x were completely independent vehicles.

* Or a 442 with a 73 on the end. Look, I got them in!

I know we have a bit of lies, damn lies and statistics - but the modern diesel's are the worst in terms of carbon emisions.

XC is the most polluting
MML at 2 (pre electrification)
TPE at no.3

However what I can't remember is how this was measured. In terms of Tonnes of carbon this would not be a surprise, I large all diesel fleet. If it is Tonnes of Carbon per passenger that would be more concerning.

 

[adrock1976]

With me having had a go at what I had suggested in my previous post about extending some of the London St Pancras - Sheffield trains to Carlisle/Glasgow, I could get it to work northbound with no problems with 4 journeys extended every 3 hours. I tried running it broadly in the opposite half hour to the XC via Moorthorpe and Wakefield Westgate, but this meant a 17 minute layover at Leeds. I settled on running via Barnsley and Wakefield Kirkgate, running a few minutes ahead of the present day Covid missing Sheffield - Leeds that normally runs in the opposite half hour of the Nottingham - Leeds. This gives a 7 minute layover at Leeds (plus 3 minutes at Sheffield earlier on) to change direction.

Southbound, I could not get it to work at all. Perhaps maybe shelve the idea of running IC type trains over the S&C, and maybe as a first port of call would be to try and make minds up as to whether to depart Leeds at xx18 or xx48, and whether odd hours go to Lancaster and even hours go to Carlisle (or vice versa), with the opposite half hour left vacant/used for some IC trains in July and August?

Of note, there appears to be very little difference journey time wise for Leicester - Carlisle/Glasgow assuming a change at Birmingham New Street, and Derby - Carlisle/Glasgow assuming a change at Crewe via North Staffs and Stoke-on-Trent. I could see a direct train may be useful for Loughborough, Long Eaton, and Chesterfield - Carlisle passengers, but am unsure how popular that is.

 

[Bald Rick]

I could see a direct train may be useful for Loughborough, Long Eaton, and Chesterfield - Carlisle passengers, but am unsure how popular that is.

In passenger numbers, you’ll be looking at single figures a month.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Voyagers would be great for a service over the S&C

Completely agree!

 

[adrock1976]

I have started a new thread for a clock face timetable Leeds - Settle - Carlisle, plus extra First Class workings in July and August.

See Suggested clock face timetable Leeds - Settle - Carlisle plus summer extras

 

[martinsh]

, the best thing about changing trains at Wolves is the Great Western next door.

Currently closed for "refurbishment"...

 

[Bald Rick]

Currently closed for "refurbishment"...

Not for refurbishment - awaiting a new manager. Tempted to apply...

 

[Wtloild]

My employer is based in Leeds, but has been doing quite a bit of work in Glasgow & Kilmarnock recently.
I'm based in Lancs so travel had been quite easy for me (either by train or via M6/M74), but my Yorkshire-based colleagues had found both driving and train a right drag.

 

[cle]

Agreed on both respects. Strangely enough l normally use Wolvo quite a lot.... On my way to the Golden Palace that is Molineux....

I knew I liked you pinko x

I can't see St Pancras being a solve here. If anything, a non-stop to Leeds via Hambleton might face the right way. It evades the legendary Nottingham-Glasgow flow that folks seem to like on here (but I suppose that option sweeps up Sheffield too).

Other than Carlisle, which of course is very well-served to Glasgow, I can't think of anywhere on the route with demand to Glasgow. Skipton at a very push, or for pathing. I can't even imagine Carlisle-Leeds being that notable.

So could Nottingham->Sheffield->Leeds->Skipton->Carlisle->Glasgow fill a Voyager? It's 3-4m people or so in metro, but I can't see it, demand-wise.

Doesn't relieve the WCML much either, which will always be stuck with two-hourly splits.

 

[option]

CrossCountry have been extremely proactive in recent years about trying to shave sufficient margins off their paths at key strategic points to enable significant overall savings, for example most recently taking approx. 25 mins out of some of their Reading-Newcastle trains, by leaving New St slightly earlier, then beating EMR out of Derby, thereby getting a better path at Sheffield, and ultimately getting ahead of LNER from Doncaster.

The problem with the Bristol/SW England paths is the rail connections through the south west side of Birmingham and unless you’re somehow suggesting that XC should be funding a high speed underground cutoff (as that is what it would take) I don’t know what you expect them to do. The existing infrastructure would permit a 1h15m Bristol-Brum journey time in theory but in practice the quicker you get to the outskirts, the sooner you just catch up the CrossCity stopper. The incremental gains just don’t translate into a big win as the capacity isn’t there.

There is the Kings Heath line, but then you have to turnaround at New St.

At Wolverhampton why couldn't you just take the stop out? In reality for most long-distance journeys there is somewhere else a passenger could change and for hops to Birmingham there's already plenty of services

The Metro is being extended to Wolverhampton station, which itself has just had major rebuilding work, so it is going to be an even more important stop than it already is.
(The Brierley Hill extension trams could also run to Wolverhampton)