Cross Country Voyagers - rear set locked out of use?

[Zomboid]

I'd like to see a situation with a double set, rear unit locked out due to "staffing shortages", full and standing. What would happen then? I could definitely see the police being called.

I've been on one of those (a GWR).

Pretty much everyone one the train was furious about it (myself included). But there was no riot, just a lot of people who would think twice about travelling by train in future.

 

[GordonT]

Im with you on that but once these agreements are made they are very very difficult to reverse. It’s like voluntary Sundays. Why on earth did that ever get through with some operators after privatisation? It was always going to be a recipe for disaster and something that us traincrew could always hold management over a barrel with.

Managers adopting the line of least resistance, sometimes under the direction of people who don't understand the industry properly with horrendous consequential insane outcomes for operations?

 

[NSEWonderer]

What i dont get is that the safety critical dispatch still occurs for an 8 car or 9 car train regardless of if the last unit is locked out or do they only bother with the first unit and pretend the last doesn't exist and cant potentially have individuals run towards it in a last ditch attempt to board??

 

[Class 170101]

Im with you on that but once these agreements are made they are very very difficult to reverse. It’s like voluntary Sundays. Why on earth did that ever get through with some operators after privatisation? It was always going to be a recipe for disaster and something that us traincrew could always hold management over a barrell with.

Remember though Sundays were voluntary at BR, the difference was pay was poor and Sundays were paid at time +xxx enhancement which made staff salaries respectable. As TOCs kept Sundays outside but paid off other conditions of course pay improved but they improved to such an extent that staff didn't need to volunteer for Sundays but still have a decent take home pay.

 

[Bevan Price]

This issue I was talking about is trains on which the rear set is locked out being announced as having 8/9 coaches multiple times prior to arrival at Leeds. Whoever is responsible for the announcements at Leeds* should (i) be told when a train is only partially available to customers; and then (ii) make appropriate announcements advising people which section of the platform they should wait on.

Running an overcrowded train with half or more of the accommodation locked out of use is bad enough, making misleading (at best) announcements prior to the train's arrival in the platform only compounds matters.

* and any other stations affected

Perhaps the passengers at Leeds (or elsewhere) should start standing very close to the empty coaches and refuse to move until they were unlocked. That would make it very difficult to despatch the train. Surely that might make XC management take notice and change the stupid policy ???

 

[Zomboid]

Perhaps the passengers at Leeds (or elsewhere) should start standing very close to the empty coaches and refuse to move until they were unlocked. That would make it very difficult to despatch the train. Surely that might make XC management take notice and change the stupid policy ???

I doubt that would achieve anything. XC management are probably not stupid enough too not realise the issue, but the solution is either to increase staffing expenditure (assuming they can recruit the people they need) or make a change to how the trains are managed (which will need negotiating with the unions), and neither are things they can do alone.

 

[dk1]

Remember though Sundays were voluntary at BR, the difference was pay was poor and Sundays were paid at time +xxx enhancement which made staff salaries respectable. As TOCs kept Sundays outside but paid off other conditions of course pay improved but they improved to such an extent that staff didn't need to volunteer for Sundays but still have a decent take home pay.

When I was a roster clerk in the early 90s the Available book was heaving. Move on 30 years and it’s the Not Available book that looks like that. A colleague summed it up by saying that nobody is hungry anymore. I tend to agree.

 

[rg177]

Doesn't help that some station screens are spitting out total nonsense. The 1921 Sheffield to Edinburgh is a 221+220 (5+4 coaches). Screens said front four coaches only in use, then also front five coaches only for stations beyond Newcastle. The 221 was leading.

Then as it happens, the whole thing is in use anyway.

 

[ValentaFan1974]

Perhaps the passengers at Leeds (or elsewhere) should start standing very close to the empty coaches and refuse to move until they were unlocked. That would make it very difficult to despatch the train. Surely that might make XC management take notice and change the stupid policy ???

The train wouldn’t move until those passengers moved away from the train or boarded the open part of it. If they continued to disobey then the BTP would be asked to attend - in extreme situations the train would be cancelled entirely. I’m not saying it’s right but that’s what would happen.

I can assure you we’re as frustrated about it as you are, but there seems to be no willingness to resolve this sadly

 

[dk1]

Perhaps the passengers at Leeds (or elsewhere) should start standing very close to the empty coaches and refuse to move until they were unlocked. That would make it very difficult to despatch the train. Surely that might make XC management take notice and change the stupid policy ???

Trains would simply just get delayed or cancelled. Passengers also don’t tend to act as a group. It’s each (wo)man for themselves.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps all XC voyager trains should be booked as single, four car, units. Seat demand would be managed by restricting seat reservations/advance ticket sales accordingly.

 

[stadler]

Perhaps all XC voyager trains should be booked as single, four car, units. Seat demand would be managed by restricting seat reservations/advance ticket sales accordingly.

A large amount of people on Cross Country will have ordinary tickets that allow them to travel on any train. So restricting the sale of advance tickets or seat reservations will only make a minor difference.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps all XC voyager trains should be booked as single, four car, units. Seat demand would be managed by restricting seat reservations/advance ticket sales accordingly.

But it’s a walk on railway in this country and on some of these routes XC are the only operator so would never work.

 

[Zomboid]

Perhaps all XC voyager trains should be booked as single, four car, units. Seat demand would be managed by restricting seat reservations/advance ticket sales accordingly.

As far as reservations go this is already the case, I believe. Coach B is always unreserved in a 221 because it doesn't exist in a 220, and when I've travelled in a second unit it's always been fully unreserved.

 

[Carlisle]

I've been on one of those (a GWR).

Surprised as you’d expect passcoms etc on a new train such as an IET to be able to be reset from the adjoining unit.

 

[Mainline421]

A large amount of people on Cross Country will have ordinary tickets that allow them to travel on any train. So restricting the sale of advance tickets or seat reservations will only make a minor difference.

If you limited advance fares to the trains which are actually quiet (evening and early morning) it could probably persuade quite a few to switch.

 

[NEDdrv]

EMR have this rule on their 222 fleet, but not any other traction type.

A suitably safety trained first class customer host can be the person in the other unit. Occasionally an off duty manager, director etc or someone travelling to a meeting etc will step up, obviously in the correct way.

It's magically all ok through with multiple 170s coupled!

Most of these "rules" and "agreements" are relics of when drivers would need to leave the train to use a signal post telephone or around a guard not being able to reset a passcom alarm in the other unit without walking along track, potentially with 125mph running lines. Some, more pragmatic TOCs, understand that the driver can do this instead, from their unit, whereas at other TOCs, that would be seen as reducing the role of a guard.

Somewhat contrasts with Lumo running 125mph InterCity express services, completely DOO. Although they have a "ambassador" on board with a limited appreciation of the on-board systems and track safety, the safety case which these trains run on is pure DOO.

Using Lumo is like comparing apples to oranges, they only run single sets. It might be considering the distance some XC trains travel that the do not want the driver to stop the train after a passenger assistance but is pressed to go and deal with it, delays could soon add up not only for XC

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Using Lumo is like comparing apples to oranges, they only run single sets. It might be considering the distance some XC trains travel that the do not want the driver to stop the train after a passenger assistance but is pressed to go and deal with it, delays could soon add up not only for XC

Not really, as Lumo are perfectly able to run double sets if they wanted to, which would also operate as DOO under their safety case.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Somewhat contrasts with Lumo running 125mph InterCity express services, completely DOO. Although they have a "ambassador" on board with an limited appreciation of the on-board systems and track safety, the safety case which these trains run on is pure DOO.

Is that absolutely the case. I was under the impression the train was crewed by people who could drive and do onboard stuff, so perhaps someone driving up to Kings Cross could "guard" on the way back to Newcastle say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that absolutely the case. I was under the impression the train was crewed by people who could drive and do onboard stuff, so perhaps someone driving up to Kings Cross could "guard" on the way back to Newcastle say.

The safety case is DOO. There are stewards on board with various competencies but the train is allowed to run without them.

I don't believe they have dual role drivers/guards - only place I ever heard of that was the Stourbridge Shuttle. Elsewhere it would be an incredibly expensive approach because drivers are paid a lot more than guards.

 

[dmncf]

Have there been any instances yet of CrossCountry having the rear set locked out of use on both arrival to and departure from Birmingham New Street, on a service which reversed there?

 

[island]

I don't believe they have dual role drivers/guards - only place I ever heard of that was the Stourbridge Shuttle. Elsewhere it would be an incredibly expensive approach because drivers are paid a lot more than guards.

Eurostar has, or at least had, dual driver/train managers, with a requirement for one of the two train managers in an 18-car seat to be capable of driving. Said to be so that in an emergency under the sea, the train, or half of it, could be driven back from the rear cab if needed.

Appreciate Eurostar is a bit of a different operation.

 

[Carlisle]

Don’t the Isle of Wight also have dual driver/guards ?

 

[LowLevel]

The safety case is DOO. There are stewards on board with various competencies but the train is allowed to run without them.

I don't believe they have dual role drivers/guards - only place I ever heard of that was the Stourbridge Shuttle. Elsewhere it would be an incredibly expensive approach because drivers are paid a lot more than guards.

Merseyrail used to do it too until the new stock came in I think - driver and guard were unusually in the same line of promotion so a new driver could still guard.

 

[dk1]

Back in the day drivers at my TOC covered back end turns should no guard be available. It eventually got whittled down to one link that provided this cover until it was eventually abolished due to the constant need to keep up and monitor competency. Many senior drivers refused to do it anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

Back in the day drivers at my TOC covered back end turns should no guard be available. It eventually got whittled down to one link that provided this cover until it was eventually abolished due to the constant need to keep up and monitor competency. Many senior drivers refused to do it anyway.

Unofficially we used to have drivers who used to be guards do the doors for you so you could get on gripping if they happened to be on the train - that one died a death at least 10 years ago because not unreasonably the PTI stuff came into strong focus after James Street.

 

[dk1]

Unofficially we used to have drivers who used to be guards do the doors for you so you could get on gripping if they happened to be on the train - that one died a death at least 10 years ago because not unreasonably the PTI stuff came into strong focus after James Street.

Yes I used to do the doors many years ago when I was a clerical officer so the guards could get stuck into the punters We used to do the doors for the guard as well as driving on the busiest services too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jun 2025 ==

Thinking about it, I did the doors on the way to/from work when I was a 16 year old Junior Railman. Very different railway back then.

 

[saismee]

Thinking about it, I did the doors on the way to/from work when I was a 16 year old Junior Railman. Very different railway back then.

Nowadays an on-duty guard isn't even allowed to sit in a passenger seat while working!

 

[dk1]

Nowadays an on-duty guard isn't even allowed to sit in a passenger seat while working!

Really? Ours do as they spend almost all their time in the saloon.

 

[LowLevel]

Nowadays an on-duty guard isn't even allowed to sit in a passenger seat while working!

Of course they are. Some TOCs even have agreements for on duty crew to sit in passenger seats and take meal breaks on board.

Whilst I'm trundling along through ruralshire I don't think anyone will think twice about me taking a seat across the aisle from an old dear for a friendly chat about nothing in particular as I often do.